More than 1,000 dead birds fall from sky in Ark

[Churmudgeon]

Truthslayers wrote:

<quoted text>
Churmudgeon it is apparent you very dishonest in your rebuttals. It is the lumber companies that are raping the hard wood forest and replacing oak for pine. YOU and I know this being residents of Arkansas to be a fact. It is disingenuous to suggest black birds are more detrimental to trees than the logging companies....Just take a trip south and south west of Pine Bluff and see for yourself.....

Who owns the land? A person has a counstitional & God given right to use his own land the way that is the most productive and provides jobs and revenue. The logging compaines are tree farmers and the grow more tree,s in less time than ever. I know the south ark area very well. So What they removed the unprofitable hardwoods that isnt rape. The tree compainies also planted many acres that where formerly row crop with pine also. Several years ago. The Ark game & fish came out with this agenda and had the slogan (There is life in those dead trees) they encouraged folks to leave the dead trees becaise they where habitat for wildlife. Well not removing diseased & dead trees allowed the Tree Borer to flourish. Now 90 % of the Oak in the Ozarks are infested with Tree Borer. And a very large portion are dying. My rebuttals are not dishonest I never made that statement. I never compared the damage done by blackbirds to anything else. Its you who jumped to that unfounded conclusion.

[Churmudgeon]

Raptor in Michigan wrote:

<quoted text>
The blackbird population is estimated to be at about 350 million, NOT billions as you claim.
The Passenger Pigeons were estimated to be at 6 billion.
Passenger Pigeons fly no more- wiped off the face of the earth in just a century of man thinking he knows best.
Some species need very large numbers to be sustained. Because they roost in huge flocks, a disaster in the south in the winter could wipe the blackbirds out if we reduced their numbers to what you would like.
Some things humans just don't understand. It's not for us to second guess. Some species numbers are abundant, others less so. I appreciate nature as it is.
Churm, The life of every individual human, bird and animal on this planet is precious. Outside of hunting for food, self defense, and few other instances, we have no right to take the life of another. How would you like it if some other entity said humans were overpopulated and we needed to be eradicated- for the good of others? What if you were the one being killed?
What those firemen did was illegal. Blackbirds are protected under the MBTA. They should be sprayed with a firehose while they sleep and see how they like it.

No it wasnt illegal To spray those blackbirds. I used to haul grain. I went to facitities all over. And most had these traps . Made of wire and several little flip doors so the black birds (grackles) could get in and couldnt get out they would catch 20 or thirty per trap. they submerged the trap in a barrell and drown them. When your processing grain for human consumption you Dont want black bird poop in it. And there are indeed humans who clain the earth is overpopulated. there are Loonies who claim humans cause golwbull warming etc. We get along fine without the passenger pigeons. Im shure we could get along just as good without blackbirds. There was a large bunch of blackbirds that thought my cedar glade would make a good roost. Me and the boys went up there in the nite and blasted up into the trees with 12 guage shotguns loaded with number 7 shot. the next day the ground was littered with dead birds , but they came back that nite. It took a week of harrssing them two or three times a nite to discourage them.

[Churmudgeon]

Raptor in Michigan wrote:

<quoted text>
Exactly, Truthslayer. Every time we try to reduce the numbers or eliminate something, we always find out years later it was a mistake. A little education could go a long way in stopping those mistakes from happening in the future. Unfortunately, our lawmakers and the ones making important decisions are just as ignorant as the next person. Many still bel ieve the old wives tales they were told as children.

While what you state sounds good it just so much baloney. There are laws of cause and effect. for every action ther is an equal and opposite reaction. When a landowner increases the productivity of his land he increases food for wildlife. If he dont take steps to control the detrimental species he cannott maintain a profitable existance. I put my lively hood and profit ahead of any varmits right to exist. Good or bad, Right or wrong, Your fault, My fault, The Varmits fault, Nobodys fault, Thats just the way it is. And that is the way it has to be if humans want to eat.

[Raptor in Michigan]

WARRIOR wrote:

<quoted text>The grizzly killed that man because he was ignorant. When I am in the forrest I am the TOP DOG! I could take out a grizzly or any North American animal in a matter of seconds. I have hunted black bear never grizzly, yet. We can thank humans for bringing back the bald eagle from the brink of extinction. It is not even an endangered species any more. The turkey, the elk, the coues deer, I can go on and on and on also about how much good man has done for this planet. Things come and things go in this world. Our job is to enjoy this planet while we are here. In the end this planet will cease to exist. Every living creature on her will be gone and that's a fact!

Nice outlook, but I live in the now. I believe in protecting and cherishing what we have. Reality is if we hadn't introduced harmful pesticides into the environment, the eagle wouldn't have ever been endangered in the first place.

[Raptor in Michigan]

WARRIOR wrote:

You guys need to get on an airplane and fly over the United States. This country is no where close to being over populated. The vast majority of people live in big cities. You could take EVERY human bein in this country and fit all of them in the state or Arkansas. This planet has been taking care of its self for billions of years, it will continue to do so!

Likewise, you could take every blackbird in this country and fit all of them into my garage.
I don't know if humans are over-populated or not. That's not for me to decide.
Likewise, it's not for any human to decide that blackbirds are overpopulated.

[Churmudgeon]

Raptor in Michigan wrote:

<quoted text>
Likewise, you could take every blackbird in this country and fit all of them into my garage.
I don't know if humans are over-populated or not. That's not for me to decide.
Likewise, it's not for any human to decide that blackbirds are overpopulated.

You must have a big garage?

[Raptor in Michigan]

WARRIOR wrote:

<quoted text>The Ash Borer wasn't brought here by man. God put it here. That's like saying the pilgrims brought you here! Everything is here for a reason, call it nature call it science call it Gods creation. Just enjoy it while you can. You are closer to death than you are to birth.....

God didn't put the Emerald Ash Borer on this continent. In fact, when he created the continents, he seperated them. Probably for good reason. Humans are the ones who decided to introduce animals to places where they "shouldn't" be. Though Churm and I have some disagreements, I do agree with him on the non-native cat issue.

I also agree with you that "Everything is here for a reason."

[Old Army]

If DDT wasn't banned, thousands of Africans wouldn't have died and are still dying from maleria.

[Truthslayers]

Churmudgeon,

I am not trying to get into a pissing argument. I will concede that mans has a right to do what every he pleases, regardless of the consequences. As you put it, A person has a constitutional & God given right to use his own land the way that is productive as long as it provides jobs and revenue, RIGHT? Our government has the right to dump radioactive 55 gallon drums in the oceans to further create jobs in American as long as it creates revenue. Lets do away with Green Peace for exposing this horrific act of callous greed at the expense of the public for the almighty dollar because of our Constitutional God given rights. Hell lets just do away with all laws because humans are the top of the food chain. Lets go plunder the lands, kill everything, cut all the trees down like in the Amazon Rain Forrest. Shit who cares, its not over here. Lets keep pumpin millions of gallon of hydraulic fluid into the water table to frac for Natural Gas because it creates jobs and revenue for the state....To hell with conservation and being good stewards of the land. To hell with the bible which states give the earth(land) a rest for so many years after cultivating. Lets do away with Game & Fish Laws, so we can kill whatever our heart desires because of our Constitutional God given rights. Why not, the American Indians didn't give a shit when the white man decimated the buffalo herds to almost extinction because of our Constitutional God given rights to harvest anything and everything. There no such thing as cause and effect, that all bull shit. All the worlds environmental problems are derived from the tree hugging utopia eco terrorist. You right it's my Constitutional God given right to see my grandchildren have a better world left for them when I die.

[Raptor in Michigan]

Churmudgeon wrote:

August 28, 2012 – CALIFORNIA - Another visitor to Yosemite National Park this summer who contracted the hantavirus while staying in the popular Curry Village has died, park officials said Monday. That makes three confirmed cases, including two deaths. A fourth case, also reported Monday, is being investigated. All four visitors stayed in Curry Village, a collection of tents and cabins at the eastern end of Yosemite Valley, over a one-week period in mid-June. Park officials are now contacting everyone who has stayed in the tent cabins since mid-June to warn them about the virus and advise them to seek medical attention if they have any symptoms of infection.“This is being taken very seriously,” said park spokesman Scott Gediman.“We’ve been able to isolate the cabin area, we’ve done the thorough cleaning, we’re monitoring the area, we’re trapping mice and testing them. We’re making sure the cabins are shored up. We’re being very active, and we have been since the cases came to light.” Hantavirus is a rare viral infection carried by mice and passed to humans by the rodents’ feces or urine. Most people infected with the virus suffer flu-like symptoms first, including fever, headache and muscle pains, often in the thighs, back and hips. After two to seven days, many patients have severe difficulty breathing and can die. Patients may not develop symptoms until one to six weeks after exposure. There is no cure or virus-specific treatment for hantavirus. The first victim reported was a 37-year-old Alameda County man who died in late July. The second victim was a woman from Southern California who survived the infection. The third victim is a man who lives in another state and also died in July. No immediate information was available on the fourth victim, who is expected to survive. Public health officials are waiting for lab tests to confirm that the fourth victim has hantavirus, but given the symptoms it’s likely that patient also contracted the virus in Yosemite, Gediman said.–SF Gate.--------- And this was in the park where everything is protected. The coyotes, owls, hawks & other predators didnt prevent the deaths. A box Of DCon in evey cabim would lkely have prevented the deaths. Warrors post state the elemation of coyote merely contributed to the mice overpopulation. Its possidle the coyoted removet the rabbits & Ouail other critters leaving an abuntant food source & habitat for the mice to occupy. There is no proof that hunting coyotes causes haunta virus.

I would agree that "hunting" coyotes (regulated, of course) probably doesn't CAUSE Hantavirus. But ELIMINATING coyotes can cause all kinds of problems, including the increased threat of Hanta becaue of increased rodent numbers.

Makes me wonder, what would cause an increase in rodent populations if all the animals are protected in the park?

First ask yourslef, "What eats mice and other rodents?"
Answer: HAWKS and OWLS are a huge threat to them.

Hawks and owls also aren't restricted to the park. They have wings. Most migrate.
Now ask yourslef, "How are the hawk and owl populations doing?"

As a bird watcher and someone who has participated in all kinds of counts and monitoring, and who does alot of reading on this topic, I would bet their populations are on the low side.

Third question, "What would make their populations lower than they should be?"
Lots of reasons:
Cell towers
Wind turbines
Pesticides
Cars
People who shoot them
....
I could go on and on. None of these threats necessarily need to be in the park itself. We are losing them during migration and/or on their wintering/breeding grounds.

That's why it's so important to protect all species while they are still common, even if we "think" they are over-abundant. There is reason they are here.

[Raptor in Michigan]

Churmudgeon wrote:

<quoted text> Who owns the land? A person has a counstitional & God given right to use his own land the way that is the most productive and provides jobs and revenue. The logging compaines are tree farmers and the grow more tree,s in less time than ever. I know the south ark area very well. So What they removed the unprofitable hardwoods that isnt rape. The tree compainies also planted many acres that where formerly row crop with pine also. Several years ago. The Ark game & fish came out with this agenda and had the slogan (There is life in those dead trees) they encouraged folks to leave the dead trees becaise they where habitat for wildlife. Well not removing diseased & dead trees allowed the Tree Borer to flourish. Now 90 % of the Oak in the Ozarks are infested with Tree Borer. And a very large portion are dying. My rebuttals are not dishonest I never made that statement. I never compared the damage done by blackbirds to anything else. Its you who jumped to that unfounded conclusion.

It's sad when everything revolves solely around humans and their profits. I don't think that was God's intent.

It's true, dead trees should be left standing as long as they aren't a threat to anybody. Many birds will ONLY build their nests in tree cavities. Without the holes in these dead trees, we lose countless species, including bluebirds, Tree Swallows, House Wrens, Prothonotary Warblers, Great-crested Flycatchers, titmice, Wood Ducks, screech owls, etc, etc....

It was the lack of dead trees that made people start bluebird trails before we lost that species.

[Raptor in Michigan]

Churmudgeon wrote:

<quoted text> No it wasnt illegal To spray those blackbirds. I used to haul grain. I went to facitities all over. And most had these traps . Made of wire and several little flip doors so the black birds (grackles) could get in and couldnt get out they would catch 20 or thirty per trap. they submerged the trap in a barrell and drown them. When your processing grain for human consumption you Dont want black bird poop in it. And there are indeed humans who clain the earth is overpopulated. there are Loonies who claim humans cause golwbull warming etc. We get along fine without the passenger pigeons. Im shure we could get along just as good without blackbirds. There was a large bunch of blackbirds that thought my cedar glade would make a good roost. Me and the boys went up there in the nite and blasted up into the trees with 12 guage shotguns loaded with number 7 shot. the next day the ground was littered with dead birds , but they came back that nite. It took a week of harrssing them two or three times a nite to discourage them.

That's pathetic- AND illegal. Those birds were not bothering you. So they shit, so what. Humans do too. Should we kill humans?
Question is, if blackbirds were bright red, would you feel differently about them?

I have been feeding and handling birds for decades. Never got sick over it either.

So you don't want poop in your grain- cover it.

[Churmudgeon]

Truthslayers wrote:

Churmudgeon,
I am not trying to get into a pissing argument. I will concede that mans has a right to do what every he pleases, regardless of the consequences. As you put it, A person has a constitutional & God given right to use his own land the way that is productive as long as it provides jobs and revenue, RIGHT? Our government has the right to dump radioactive 55 gallon drums in the oceans to further create jobs in American as long as it creates revenue. Lets do away with Green Peace for exposing this horrific act of callous greed at the expense of the public for the almighty dollar because of our Constitutional God given rights. Hell lets just do away with all laws because humans are the top of the food chain. Lets go plunder the lands, kill everything, cut all the trees down like in the Amazon Rain Forrest. Shit who cares, its not over here. Lets keep pumpin millions of gallon of hydraulic fluid into the water table to frac for Natural Gas because it creates jobs and revenue for the state....To hell with conservation and being good stewards of the land. To hell with the bible which states give the earth(land) a rest for so many years after cultivating. Lets do away with Game & Fish Laws, so we can kill whatever our heart desires because of our Constitutional God given rights. Why not, the American Indians didn't give a shit when the white man decimated the buffalo herds to almost extinction because of our Constitutional God given rights to harvest anything and everything. There no such thing as cause and effect, that all bull shit. All the worlds environmental problems are derived from the tree hugging utopia eco terrorist. You right it's my Constitutional God given right to see my grandchildren have a better world left for them when I die.

You posted quite a rant. And I fail to see the great ecological disaster you refer to? The gulf oil spill was ate by some organism it turned out be a non event. Almost Every species is thriving. People are living longer than ever. I saw years ago more than 300 eagles in one bend of the mississippi river . that was when they where supposed to be on the brink of extinction, I saw & counted more than where supposed to existat that time. We have more alligators hawks,storks, raccoon,opossum, armadillo, deer, turkey, buzzards, bobcat,cougar, wolves ,bears And the polar baers are increased too. Its a fact that there are universal laws of cause and effect. For every action their is an equal and opposite reaction. Everything on this planet is a natural thing. Granted much of it is harmful to organic life. But like a rattle snakes poison or the gas from a volcanic vent its a natural thing just the same. Mans activities merely are a rearrangement of what was always here and always will be here. You cannott take something and make it into nothing. That something will still exist just in a different form. Likewise you cant take nothing and make it into something like prepetual motion it cant be done. the planet eventually recycles everything Somehow,Someway,Sometime,somep lace! Eventually It all comes out Even Steven

[Raptor in Michigan]

Churmudgeon wrote:

<quoted text> While what you state sounds good it just so much baloney. There are laws of cause and effect. for every action ther is an equal and opposite reaction. When a landowner increases the productivity of his land he increases food for wildlife. If he dont take steps to control the detrimental species he cannott maintain a profitable existance. I put my lively hood and profit ahead of any varmits right to exist. Good or bad, Right or wrong, Your fault, My fault, The Varmits fault, Nobodys fault, Thats just the way it is. And that is the way it has to be if humans want to eat.

"I put my lively hood and profit ahead of any varmits right to exist."
So you grow grain in winter? It was a wintering flock of blackbirds you offed, was it not?

[Raptor in Michigan]

Churmudgeon wrote:

<quoted text> You must have a big garage?

Okay, maybe I should have said my dad's polebarn.:)
I'm not a math person. It's hard to tell how much space 300 million birds would take up. But I do know this, you could mail 3 chickadees to me and it would only cost you 45 cents. LOL

[Raptor in Michigan]

Old Army wrote:

If DDT wasn't banned, thousands of Africans wouldn't have died and are still dying from maleria.

DDT was banned in Africa?

BTW, I don't believe they wouldn't have died. One would have to cover every square inch of land with DDT to eliminate mosquitos. You would also eliminate most other insects too. And birds (as we saw happening) and small animals and large animals, on up the food chain.

The reason the Africans die from Malaria is because they don't have the treatment.

[Churmudgeon]

Raptor in Michigan wrote:

<quoted text>
It's sad when everything revolves solely around humans and their profits. I don't think that was God's intent.
It's true, dead trees should be left standing as long as they aren't a threat to anybody. Many birds will ONLY build their nests in tree cavities. Without the holes in these dead trees, we lose countless species, including bluebirds, Tree Swallows, House Wrens, Prothonotary Warblers, Great-crested Flycatchers, titmice, Wood Ducks, screech owls, etc, etc....
It was the lack of dead trees that made people start bluebird trails before we lost that species.

Well there isnt no shortage of dead trees in the Ozarks any Longer the tree boer has killed plenty. andthey have infested almost every oak tree. The oaks will soon die out and the acorns will be no longer. the woods will be maple & other trees resistant to the boer. Every year there are bluebirds that nest in the holes on each side at the back of the bed of a derelick dumptruck. they are little factory keyholes that are put there to attach the tail gate chains. Almost every dump truck has them. also there is a pair that nest in the rusted out gas tank of a junk B John Deere tractor. So I know for a fact they do nest in other places besides dead trees & bluebird houses.

[Churmudgeon]

harrycallihan wrote:

<quoted text>
Im not trying to start no crap, "Churmudgeon"
Im just wandering if you had a epidemiology or wild life biology degree to help support your supposition?

Nope just common ordinary every day horse sense. The article was a cut and paste. It seems that since you dont like or agree with the message and cant refute it with hard facts. you try and discredit the messenger?

[Raptor in Michigan]

Truthslayers wrote:

Churmudgeon,
I am not trying to get into a pissing argument. I will concede that mans has a right to do what every he pleases, regardless of the consequences. As you put it, A person has a constitutional & God given right to use his own land the way that is productive as long as it provides jobs and revenue, RIGHT? Our government has the right to dump radioactive 55 gallon drums in the oceans to further create jobs in American as long as it creates revenue. Lets do away with Green Peace for exposing this horrific act of callous greed at the expense of the public for the almighty dollar because of our Constitutional God given rights. Hell lets just do away with all laws because humans are the top of the food chain. Lets go plunder the lands, kill everything, cut all the trees down like in the Amazon Rain Forrest. Shit who cares, its not over here. Lets keep pumpin millions of gallon of hydraulic fluid into the water table to frac for Natural Gas because it creates jobs and revenue for the state....To hell with conservation and being good stewards of the land. To hell with the bible which states give the earth(land) a rest for so many years after cultivating. Lets do away with Game & Fish Laws, so we can kill whatever our heart desires because of our Constitutional God given rights. Why not, the American Indians didn't give a shit when the white man decimated the buffalo herds to almost extinction because of our Constitutional God given rights to harvest anything and everything. There no such thing as cause and effect, that all bull shit. All the worlds environmental problems are derived from the tree hugging utopia eco terrorist. You right it's my Constitutional God given right to see my grandchildren have a better world left for them when I die.

Very well said!

I have landscaped my yard to attract wildlife of all kinds. I keep things as natural as possible. I try to live the slogan; Take only pictures, Leave only footprints.

But I'm not against living comfortably either. I support drilling in Alaska. My freezer is full of venison and elk. It is the needless killing of animals that gets me riled.

[Churmudgeon]

Raptor in Michigan wrote:

<quoted text>
"I put my lively hood and profit ahead of any varmits right to exist."
So you grow grain in winter? It was a wintering flock of blackbirds you offed, was it not?

I feed in the winter. Im one of those people who believe thats its better and more profitable to keep all the corn and other grain in front of my animals that they can eat. much easier to keep a animal full than to get him full. Im not gonna let a maruading flock of grackles eat one kernel if I can help it. And those grackles could bring a pullorium disease to my flock. Also those grackles would eat the blue juniper berries from my cedar. I want those berries to grow into new trees. And their droppings would be unhealthy for the trees. I manage that cedar glade for profit. I dont want to worry about histoplasmosis from bird droppings when I go there with my chainsaw. I only harvest cedar when its cold and the sap is down. Summertime sappy cedar will gum up the circle saw on the sawmill. Also summertime cedar you get sap on your hands and clothes trying to handle it. winter sawed lumber last longer and is rot resistant because the sap & moisture content is reduced.