Debate Issues Please

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Forum or Aginum

Arnold, MO

#1 Feb 3, 2013
It is the tradition on this board for issues needing to be addressed to be put aside so personal attacks may be made against individuals. Here are some issues that need addressing:

The City of Arnold frequently does not follow the ordinances of this city nor the laws of this state. The City of Arnold also enforces the ordinances of this city for some people and not for others. Who makes these decisions?

Some businesses are required to be licensed in the City of Arnold, there are requirements that need to be met before business licenses are issued. Some businesses must comply, others miraculously slip through the cracks, even when brought to the city's attention.
Some candidates are allowed to slide by owing taxes, some are not. Why are the laws not being followed consistently?
Who is controlling all of this?
Why do many households not have sewers, but the city is spending over $200,000 to expand the sewers for ABInBev?
Why are may streets turning to gravel for lack of maintenance, but the city is spending millions on Michigan Avenue and the new road for CVS?
Why was $200,000 taken out of the storm water fund to put up a salt dome under the guise of keeping the salt out of the creeks? When the snow melts from salting the streets, where does that water go? Yet we have many households suffering from storm water problems that are not being addressed. This money citizens pay should be used to alleviate the problems directly affecting the citizens that are paying it.
This is a start, see if you can explain or justify these actions in an adult manner. These situations do exist, why are they allowed to continue?
Tell The Truth

Arnold, MO

#2 Feb 3, 2013
Here are my questions.

1. When is it acceptable behavior for a council member to go door to door harassing businesses about their business licenses? Is this their job? Is this the job of community development or the city clerk?
2. When is it acceptable for a council member to use their position to try to enforce a parking situation?
3. When is it acceptable for someone to not pay their sewer bills?
4. When is it acceptable for someone to hatch a pretty elaborate scheme to not pay their personal property? And I mean hatching a REALLY elaborate scheme as stated in the Leader.

I'll leave it at these for now.
Really

Arnold, MO

#3 Feb 3, 2013
It is the duty of city council members to uphold the law. They are allowed to ask questions and a business license is supposed to be displayed prominently so EVERYONE can see it. If a regular citizen does not see a business license, they are within their right to ask to see it. Do you see your doctor's certificates displayed prominently in their office? If it is not being done by community development or the city clerk, someone must do it.
How is reiterating an employee's request for someone to move their illegally parked vehicle with no mention of their identity using their position? Would your neighbor help you if someone was parked in your driveway?
It seems the sewer bill was paid, it mysteriously materialized after the fact.
No scheme, no taxes billed, no complaint filed with the Department of Revenue, no investigation, no notification from DoR of taxes due, no clock started on the allowed 30 days to make payment, no reason for city clerk to remove said candidates.
Concerned Citizen

United States

#4 Feb 5, 2013
Please point out in the ordinances where it specifically states that it is the duty of a council member to uphold the law. Sounds like the job of a police officer.
Look It Up

Arnold, MO

#5 Feb 5, 2013
You certainly are lazy! Article VII Public Officers Section 11, RSMo. Aug. 28, 2006. Before taking office, all civil and military officers in this state shall take and subscribe an oath or affirmation to support the Constitution of the United States and of this state, and to demean themselves faithfully in office. The one for this city varies a bit and includes more. Ask your friend at city hall for the exact words.
Honestly

Arnold, MO

#6 Feb 5, 2013
Buzz! Wrong again!

Arnold City Ordinances:

Sec. 2-18.- Oath of office.permanent link to this piece of content

Before entering upon the duties of his or her office, each councilperson shall take and subscribe an oath or affirmation before some court of record in the county, or the city clerk or municipal judge. The oath shall read as follows: "I [name] do solemnly swear and affirm that I possess all the qualifications prescribed for my office by law; that I will support the

Constitutions of the United States and the State of Missouri, the provisions of all laws of this state affecting cities of this class, and the ordinances of the city, and faithfully demean myself in office."

SUPPORT them. Not UPHOLD them. Not DEFEND them. Not ENFORCE them. Biiiiig difference there, sparky. In absolutely no case are the legislative arms of our federal, state, or local government assigned to enforce the laws/ordinances applicable to their constituencies, no matter what Doris and her henchmen believe.

And that, friends, is today's civics 101 lesson. You're welcome.
Look it Up

Arnold, MO

#7 Feb 5, 2013
Synonyms: defend, justify, support, maintain
Duh, support and uphold mean the same thing!
Letusnamenames

United States

#8 Feb 5, 2013
I don't see uphold in that synonym list, but legally they have two different meanings. I think you got educated.

It's the police department who upholds and ENFORCED the laws. It is NOT a council member's job to enforce which is what Foris was trying to do with the business licenses and the car parking lot and the gold buying business. The ordinance says it all, it is NOT her job.

Do not think we need a Mayor who twists ordinances into something they are not for personal benefit.
Letusnamenames

United States

#9 Feb 5, 2013
Sorry, Doris, not Foris.
remember when

United States

#10 Feb 5, 2013
The laws or ordinances are never followed as written . They are twisted , side stepped, turned upside down and ignored to suit peewee's agenda.

Why you ask ? Because he knows that if any citizen would like to dispute it they have to get a lawyer. He banks on the fact that Joe Blow doesn't have enough money to outlast city funds. He only wants someone in the mayors chair that drools, it is not a profitable position.

He welcomes the turmoil because the whole time his register is going CHA CHING CHA CHING CHA CHING
remember when

United States

#11 Feb 5, 2013
The storm water tax was all a scam from the get go. Just more money to help with the hide an seek game. Most people do not pay attention and hope all is well. They bank on it !
What corruption

Saint Louis, MO

#12 Feb 5, 2013
I'm so glad you brought up the storm water tax.... That law suit was brought up by Matt and Doris and their gang of merry misfits... Funny thing here is you all are complaning about how the Sweeney is getting rich and yet you are the ones making him that way... How did that law suit turn out, oh yeah YOU LOST and you are the REASON he was able to bill so many hours... What's that you say, you are NOT at fault... OK then what about the same group bringing the red light camara law suit? How did that turn out?? OH YEAH you LOST again! but yet I bet if you look you will find that more than 50% of the billings in the last several years have been for those two cases.

If the above it true (Doris can you fact check please?) simple math will tell you that he would have made 50% LESS money if you would have not filed suits that you lost in the end!
Letusnamenames

United States

#13 Feb 5, 2013
Post the proof.
salt

Arnold, MO

#16 Feb 5, 2013
Forum or Aginum wrote:
It is the tradition on this board for issues needing to be addressed to be put aside so personal attacks may be made against individuals. Here are some issues that need addressing:
The City of Arnold frequently does not follow the ordinances of this city nor the laws of this state. The City of Arnold also enforces the ordinances of this city for some people and not for others. Who makes these decisions?
Some businesses are required to be licensed in the City of Arnold, there are requirements that need to be met before business licenses are issued. Some businesses must comply, others miraculously slip through the cracks, even when brought to the city's attention.

Some candidates are allowed to slide by owing taxes, some are not. Why are the laws not being followed consistently?
Who is controlling all of this?
Why do many households not have sewers, but the city is spending over $200,000 to expand the sewers for ABInBev?
Why are may streets turning to gravel for lack of maintenance, but the city is spending millions on Michigan Avenue and the new road for CVS?
Why was $200,000 taken out of the storm water fund to put up a salt dome under the guise of keeping the salt out of the creeks? When the snow melts from salting the streets, where does that water go? Yet we have many households suffering from storm water problems that are not being addressed. This money citizens pay should be used to alleviate the problems directly affecting the citizens that are paying it.
This is a start, see if you can explain or justify these actions in an adult manner. These situations do exist, why are they allowed to continue?
It seems to me the salt dome was purchased primarily to enhance the safety of the public works employees. The previous method of keeping the water out was to use plastic tarps, which leak badly. Snow and water would get in and freeze requiring a man to have to climb up the pile and remove the tarps which were also frozen in place and then chip away at the block of salt and ice to get it freed up enough to load salt into a truck. I see a secondary benefit of freeing up a lot of time for the road crews to load their trucks with clean 100% salt. I see a third benefit that by using the money from the stormwater fund to pay for the dome it demonstrates to the judge that the money was being used for stormwater related improvements. That contributed to the summary judgement which tossed out the Hay, Poor, Robinson and Boyer lawsuit. Yes of course the residual salt water eventually reaches the river anyway. You would be foolish to think otherwise. It is greatly diluted when it gets there when spread over so many more square miles. It is still there though.

Arnold owns the sewer utility so it is Arnold's responsibility to expand the capacity for the expansion. The can plant offers numerous benefits. AB is putting up $90 million in improvements including construction and manufacturing jobs, equipment and future benefits. If Arnold only has to pay $200K to improve the city's sewer line, I can live with that.

Which street is turning to gravel? Name it and then report it.

You are right. Issues should be discussed and not personal attacks. I have confidence this will also quickly degenerate.
Saying it Plainly

Arnold, MO

#17 Feb 5, 2013
He would make a quarter of the money he does if he wouldn't make contractors sue the city for money they are legitimately owed, as opposed to the investigator who attempted to scam the city. If he would stop making people sue to keep their jobs, their property or their reputation in tact he wouldn't make so much. He would make less than a quarter of what he does if he would quit pursuing unwarranted investigations of internet posts, emails or stop urging employees to make claims against the city. He would make much less money if he let the insurance company lawyers and lawyers for Jones Company or ATS handle their own cases instead of him sitting in and collecting for sitting in the peanut gallery. He wouldn't make any money off taxpayers if people saw him for the blood sucking leech he is and gave him his walking papers.
Defined

Arnold, MO

#18 Feb 5, 2013
Letusnamenames wrote:
I don't see uphold in that synonym list, but legally they have two different meanings. I think you got educated.
It's the police department who upholds and ENFORCED the laws. It is NOT a council member's job to enforce which is what Foris was trying to do with the business licenses and the car parking lot and the gold buying business. The ordinance says it all, it is NOT her job.
Do not think we need a Mayor who twists ordinances into something they are not for personal benefit.
From Thesaurus.com
Main Entry: support
Part of Speech: verb
Definition: hold up
Synonyms: base, be a foundation for, bear, bed, bolster, bottom, brace, buttress, carry, cradle, crutch, embed, found, ground, hold, keep from falling, keep up, mainstay, poise, prop, reinforce, shore, shore up, shoulder, stand, stay, strut, sustain, undergird, upbear, uphold
Antonyms: let down, let go, release
remember when

United States

#19 Feb 5, 2013
Letusnamenames wrote:
Post the proof.
Go blow dogs for a quarter maybe you could pay yours this month.
remember when

United States

#20 Feb 5, 2013
So I see helping the folks with real storm water issues that have feces and toilet paper in their yards before new fancy salt dome .
Help the folks that are paying for it not just big fancy improvements for road crew !
Has any of it went to the subdivision that all the yards were being washed away up to their porches ?
Wasn't that the excuse used for starting it ?
Not So Fast

Arnold, MO

#21 Feb 5, 2013
salt wrote:
<quoted text>
It seems to me the salt dome was purchased primarily to enhance the safety of the public works employees. The previous method of keeping the water out was to use plastic tarps, which leak badly. Snow and water would get in and freeze requiring a man to have to climb up the pile and remove the tarps which were also frozen in place and then chip away at the block of salt and ice to get it freed up enough to load salt into a truck. I see a secondary benefit of freeing up a lot of time for the road crews to load their trucks with clean 100% salt. I see a third benefit that by using the money from the stormwater fund to pay for the dome it demonstrates to the judge that the money was being used for stormwater related improvements. That contributed to the summary judgement which tossed out the Hay, Poor, Robinson and Boyer lawsuit. Yes of course the residual salt water eventually reaches the river anyway. You would be foolish to think otherwise. It is greatly diluted when it gets there when spread over so many more square miles. It is still there though.
Arnold owns the sewer utility so it is Arnold's responsibility to expand the capacity for the expansion. The can plant offers numerous benefits. AB is putting up $90 million in improvements including construction and manufacturing jobs, equipment and future benefits. If Arnold only has to pay $200K to improve the city's sewer line, I can live with that.
Which street is turning to gravel? Name it and then report it.
You are right. Issues should be discussed and not personal attacks. I have confidence this will also quickly degenerate.
To what judge? The case was dismissed by both parties. No one won, no one lost. Who is to say someone else will not come along challenging the tax for gravity you so lovingly want to call a utility?
Corporate welfare was used as a blackmailed payoff for a deal meant to insure their presence for a twenty year period of time they will enjoy the full benefit of tax abatements, not to mention their borrowed from the city tax exempt status to be used on goods and equipment they will be purchasing. Their bottom line will be enhanced but the schools, library, ambulance, fire will do without the added tax benefit.
The salt dome expense should have been paid out of city funds, at most a third should have come out of the storm water fund and even that is questionable.
Letusnamenames

United States

#22 Feb 5, 2013
So you support the storm water tax now as long as it is used the way you want it to be. Weren't you part of the lawsuit to get rid of it or did you support the lawsuit from the sidelines?

Flip flop.

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