Millcreek School Board narrows McDowell options

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wow

Erie, PA

#1 Nov 22, 2011
http://www.goerie.com/article/20111122/NEWS02...

You're getting taken for a ride in Millcreek and nobody is even questioning it.

Architects' fees of 14% are unheard of!

Your own fault if you let it happen. No competitive bidding process and thus, they are naming their own fee.

crickets.....silence.....

which ride are you going to pick?

Millcreek = the next Erie
Joe K

Erie, PA

#2 Nov 22, 2011
Why can't we in this country get it right? Pretty schools are not the answer. Watch some TV and see how they do it right in the top educating countries of the world.
I Was There

Erie, PA

#3 Nov 22, 2011
wow wrote:
http://www.goerie.com/article/ 20111122/NEWS02/311219902/Mill creek-School-Board-narrows-McD owell-options
You're getting taken for a ride in Millcreek and nobody is even questioning it.
Architects' fees of 14% are unheard of!
Your own fault if you let it happen. No competitive bidding process and thus, they are naming their own fee.
crickets.....silence.....
which ride are you going to pick?
Millcreek = the next Erie
The Board actually did request receiving bids from other architects. Maybe if you went to the meeting you would know this...
wow

Erie, PA

#4 Nov 22, 2011
I Was There wrote:
<quoted text>
The Board actually did request receiving bids from other architects. Maybe if you went to the meeting you would know this...
so the whole room was filled with morons?

architects dont make 14% idiot. 6-8% is reasonable on a job that big.
I Was There

Erie, PA

#5 Nov 22, 2011
Joe K wrote:
Why can't we in this country get it right? Pretty schools are not the answer. Watch some TV and see how they do it right in the top educating countries of the world.
Wow...Educate yourself...watch TV?
I Was There

Erie, PA

#6 Nov 22, 2011
wow wrote:
<quoted text>
so the whole room was filled with morons?
architects dont make 14% idiot. 6-8% is reasonable on a job that big.
Like I said, the Board actually REQUESTED receiving bids from other architects...
wow

Erie, PA

#7 Nov 22, 2011
"In the fall of 2009, the Millcreek Township School District engaged the services of Hallgren, Restifo, Loop, and Coughlin Architects, to perform a District wide building survey and feasibility study. From October 2009, through January 2010, every building in the District was surveyed and assessed."

http://www.edline.net/pages/mtsd/High_School_...

That's like having a car salesman tell you what's wrong with the car you have now. Dont think he's trying to talk you into buying a new one?
wow

Erie, PA

#8 Nov 22, 2011
I Was There wrote:
<quoted text>
Like I said, the Board actually REQUESTED receiving bids from other architects...
idiot. Millcreek has been using HRLC for decades. who gives a shit what they requested. you're taking a ride! a double the price 14% ride!

and you where there! hahaha
wow

Erie, PA

#9 Nov 22, 2011
"THE COST: When the original plan was announced, school administrators said it would cost $71.9 million, but that did not include so-called "soft costs" like architect and engineer's fees.

Architect Chris Coughlin estimated those fees will account for 14 percent of the project. They are included in estimates for the new options, which range from $83 million to $100 million."

from:
http://www.goerie.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article...

Why werent the "soft costs" included in the original estimate? Weren't you there keeping tabs?

"Wow...Educate yourself...watch TV?" haha

great job!
I wasnt there

Erie, PA

#10 Nov 22, 2011
couldnt find the PA version of this:
http://www.azsfb.gov/sfb/new%20construction/d...

as the cost of the project increases, the professional fees should decrease:
$ 0 to $ 100,000
7.2%- 8.9%
$ 100,000 to $ 400,000
6.6%- 8.9%
$ 400,000 to $ 1,000,000
6.2%- 8.3%
$ 1,000,000 to $ 4,000,000
5.7%- 7.8%
$ 4,000,000 to $10,000,000
5.3%- 7.2%
$10,000,000 to $20,000,000
5.0%-6.8%
$20,000,000 and above!!!!!!!!!!
4.3%- 6.0%
I wasnt there

Erie, PA

#11 Nov 22, 2011
$71.9 million * 14%=$10.07 million!!!

$71.9 million * 6%=$4.13 million

that's a difference of $5.936 million dollars!

and the new options cost even more, thus more fee.

were you there? you were there!
Bobby Brady

Wadsworth, OH

#12 Nov 22, 2011
Millcreek needs an east side high school. You would just split the present teachers between schools and only have the cost for the new school. You would save tons of money in school bus fuel costs and children wouldn't have to be on the bus at 6;30 on the east side of Millcreek. But this will NEVER happen -Why -because- The ONLY important thing to the Millcreek district is beating PREP in football and basketball. If they had two schools they would have two normal football and basketball teams that would have to compete fairly. It's sad that east Millcreek residents have to suffer because the school district can't face losing a football game. Millcreek out grew the "only one high school" concept about 25yrs ago. Time to move into the 21st century Millcreek.

Since: Feb 10

Erie, PA

#13 Nov 22, 2011
I wasnt there wrote:
couldnt find the PA version of this:
http://www.azsfb.gov/sfb/new%20construction/d...
as the cost of the project increases, the professional fees should decrease:
$ 0 to $ 100,000
7.2%- 8.9%
$ 100,000 to $ 400,000
6.6%- 8.9%
$ 400,000 to $ 1,000,000
6.2%- 8.3%
$ 1,000,000 to $ 4,000,000
5.7%- 7.8%
$ 4,000,000 to $10,000,000
5.3%- 7.2%
$10,000,000 to $20,000,000
5.0%-6.8%
$20,000,000 and above!!!!!!!!!!
4.3%- 6.0%
If you note, this is talking about architect fees. The article mentions that ALL soft costs (architect fees, engineering fees, permitting, advertising, etc.) would total around 14%. Not just the architect.
Nope

Wadsworth, OH

#14 Nov 22, 2011
ErieRealist wrote:
<quoted text>
If you note, this is talking about architect fees. The article mentions that ALL soft costs (architect fees, engineering fees, permitting, advertising, etc.) would total around 14%. Not just the architect.
If YOU note, your 'assumption' is incorrect.

Basic Services: The architectural contract should identify and include all of the services necessary to design and construct the project under "Basic Services" without any hidden or unknown cost. The services to be included as part of the contract as "Basic Services" shall consist of architectural, structural, mechanical, electrical, civil, and landscape design. The descriptions of these services are described in the American Institute of Architect (A.I.A). Document B141, "Standard Form of Agreement Between Owner and Architect (1987 Edition)", Article 2, and Add, Modified and/or Delete paragraphs.

You sound like somebody who has never hired one.

I'm just trying to help.

AIA B141:
http://www.aia.org/groups/aia/documents/docum...

You sound like the guy who got talked into buying the new car, didn't negotiate, and was too embarassed to tell his freinds he got ripped off.

It doesn't cost $10 million for ALL professional services to DESIGN (not build) a school.
fees

Erie, PA

#15 Nov 22, 2011
Nope wrote:
<quoted text>
If YOU note, your 'assumption' is incorrect.
Basic Services: The architectural contract should identify and include all of the services necessary to design and construct the project under "Basic Services" without any hidden or unknown cost. The services to be included as part of the contract as "Basic Services" shall consist of architectural, structural, mechanical, electrical, civil, and landscape design. The descriptions of these services are described in the American Institute of Architect (A.I.A). Document B141, "Standard Form of Agreement Between Owner and Architect (1987 Edition)", Article 2, and Add, Modified and/or Delete paragraphs.
You sound like somebody who has never hired one.
I'm just trying to help.
AIA B141:
http://www.aia.org/groups/aia/documents/docum...
You sound like the guy who got talked into buying the new car, didn't negotiate, and was too embarassed to tell his freinds he got ripped off.
It doesn't cost $10 million for ALL professional services to DESIGN (not build) a school.
architectural fees are based on the projected square footage of the project or can be a percentage of the accepted bid for Construction. Fees are also based on the complexity of the building. School are more purpose built construction and are often more costly. 2%-10% range so shopping mall cost would differ from a school cost.--- according to a Google search

Since: Feb 10

Erie, PA

#16 Nov 23, 2011
Nope wrote:
<quoted text>
If YOU note, your 'assumption' is incorrect.
Basic Services: The architectural contract should identify and include all of the services necessary to design and construct the project under "Basic Services" without any hidden or unknown cost. The services to be included as part of the contract as "Basic Services" shall consist of architectural, structural, mechanical, electrical, civil, and landscape design. The descriptions of these services are described in the American Institute of Architect (A.I.A). Document B141, "Standard Form of Agreement Between Owner and Architect (1987 Edition)", Article 2, and Add, Modified and/or Delete paragraphs.
You sound like somebody who has never hired one.
I'm just trying to help.
AIA B141:
http://www.aia.org/groups/aia/documents/docum...
You sound like the guy who got talked into buying the new car, didn't negotiate, and was too embarassed to tell his freinds he got ripped off.
It doesn't cost $10 million for ALL professional services to DESIGN (not build) a school.
And the school district can choose to bid out its contracts any way it wishes, consistent with the law.
Monk

Erie, PA

#17 Nov 23, 2011
Bobby Brady wrote:
Millcreek needs an east side high school. You would just split the present teachers between schools and only have the cost for the new school. You would save tons of money in school bus fuel costs and children wouldn't have to be on the bus at 6;30 on the east side of Millcreek. But this will NEVER happen -Why -because- The ONLY important thing to the Millcreek district is beating PREP in football and basketball. If they had two schools they would have two normal football and basketball teams that would have to compete fairly. It's sad that east Millcreek residents have to suffer because the school district can't face losing a football game. Millcreek out grew the "only one high school" concept about 25yrs ago. Time to move into the 21st century Millcreek.
U nailed it Bob
growler

Erie, PA

#18 Nov 23, 2011
ErieRealist wrote:
<quoted text>
And the school district can choose to bid out its contracts any way it wishes, consistent with the law.
getting fleeced isn't illegal
growler

Erie, PA

#19 Nov 23, 2011
fees wrote:
<quoted text>
architectural fees are based on the projected square footage of the project or can be a percentage of the accepted bid for Construction. Fees are also based on the complexity of the building. School are more purpose built construction and are often more costly. 2%-10% range so shopping mall cost would differ from a school cost.--- according to a Google search
Schools would be in the middle of the range, compared to hospitals or arenas, they are not at all complex to design.
wow

Erie, PA

#20 Nov 30, 2011
I Was There wrote:
<quoted text>
Wow...Educate yourself...watch TV?
I know you werent there this time!!! hah

http://www.goerie.com/article/20111130/NEWS02...

unless you're a board member?

"Tuesday was a slow night for the Millcreek School Board after three weeks of discussing one of the district's biggest projects ever.

The members of the Millcreek School Board didn't plan to discuss the McDowell High School renovation. But they didn't expect the public to take the night off."

I dont live in Millcreek, so it's not my money. But, YOU should have been there.

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