Erie bishop says Catholic schools doing well

Mar 11, 2014 Full story: Erie Times News 25

Teacher Kathy Smicker sat in a rocking chair, her "juniors" and "seniors" on the floor in front of her as she read "The Slippery Map," a book about a boy named Oyster being raised in a nunnery by women like Sister Mary Many Pockets.

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morality

Erie, PA

#1 Mar 11, 2014
Respectfully, the "bishop" is sugarcoating/denying reality. The great mass of people left the Church at Vatican 2 and the current "popes" since then have been destroyers. The official policy of Vatican 2 is a false respect for "religious liberty"; therefore, rather than follow the lives of saints like St. Patrick, who explicitly sought the conversion of pagans in Ireland, the policy today is to "allow people freedom to be pagan or whatever religion they have". If this policy does not seem to obviously result in decline, the numbers do show a causation of decline. Prior to Vatican 2, this decline did not exist but the opposite was true and the Catholic Church was growing. Certainly, one ought to allow a certain liberty to convert, however this liberty is exaggerated today to the extent to which virtually no attempt is made to convert non-Catholics and in fact those who do evangelize successfully are castigated for doing so. The bishop's words reflect this attitude, that there is a "lack of people to attend the schools". There is no such lack of people, but there is a lack of Catholics as a result of birth control by Catholic families, decline of zeal for the faith, and a decline in domestic missionary outreach (naming only a few causes). There is a staggering amount of lapsed Catholics, at a rate of something like 70% by age 23.
Hockey town

Erie, PA

#2 Mar 11, 2014
morality wrote:
Respectfully, the "bishop" is sugarcoating/denying reality. The great mass of people left the Church at Vatican 2 and the current "popes" since then have been destroyers. The official policy of Vatican 2 is a false respect for "religious liberty"; therefore, rather than follow the lives of saints like St. Patrick, who explicitly sought the conversion of pagans in Ireland, the policy today is to "allow people freedom to be pagan or whatever religion they have". If this policy does not seem to obviously result in decline, the numbers do show a causation of decline. Prior to Vatican 2, this decline did not exist but the opposite was true and the Catholic Church was growing. Certainly, one ought to allow a certain liberty to convert, however this liberty is exaggerated today to the extent to which virtually no attempt is made to convert non-Catholics and in fact those who do evangelize successfully are castigated for doing so. The bishop's words reflect this attitude, that there is a "lack of people to attend the schools". There is no such lack of people, but there is a lack of Catholics as a result of birth control by Catholic families, decline of zeal for the faith, and a decline in domestic missionary outreach (naming only a few causes). There is a staggering amount of lapsed Catholics, at a rate of something like 70% by age 23.
Respectfully, I call bullshit!
If you are going to quote or document statistic and the history of the Catholic Church then use documentation as of where you came up with these facts... Otherwise your just complete bull.
Amiee

Erie, PA

#3 Mar 11, 2014
Erie schools teachers are great.... Catholic or private schools have much more to offer ... You got Erie city school majority who are great kids. Their parents show up in pajama pants at 3 to pick up there kids. The reason catholic schools enrollment is up is because of the way Erie School district realigned the schools and grouped all the parent trash together. Who wants to send there kid to Wilson in the ghetto? Hang with kids who parents don't give a crap... You got to feel bad for many of these kids because their good kids..
furbutt

Erie, PA

#4 Mar 11, 2014
morality wrote:
Respectfully, the "bishop" is sugarcoating/denying reality. The great mass of people left the Church at Vatican 2 and the current "popes" since then have been destroyers. The official policy of Vatican 2 is a false respect for "religious liberty"; therefore, rather than follow the lives of saints like St. Patrick, who explicitly sought the conversion of pagans in Ireland, the policy today is to "allow people freedom to be pagan or whatever religion they have". If this policy does not seem to obviously result in decline, the numbers do show a causation of decline. Prior to Vatican 2, this decline did not exist but the opposite was true and the Catholic Church was growing. Certainly, one ought to allow a certain liberty to convert, however this liberty is exaggerated today to the extent to which virtually no attempt is made to convert non-Catholics and in fact those who do evangelize successfully are castigated for doing so. The bishop's words reflect this attitude, that there is a "lack of people to attend the schools". There is no such lack of people, but there is a lack of Catholics as a result of birth control by Catholic families, decline of zeal for the faith, and a decline in domestic missionary outreach (naming only a few causes). There is a staggering amount of lapsed Catholics, at a rate of something like 70% by age 23.
How did you learn all this about pre-Vatican 2? By going to mass and hearing Latin spoken? The Catholic Church has changed because the world has changed. It's quite obvious that pagans, gays etc. are not the monsters Catholics made them out to be. The Church is declining because more people are at ease pointing out that the Catholic Church is largely full of BS and is not the expression of a loving, caring fatherly being.
furbutt

Erie, PA

#5 Mar 11, 2014
Amiee wrote:
Erie schools teachers are great.... Catholic or private schools have much more to offer ... You got Erie city school majority who are great kids. Their parents show up in pajama pants at 3 to pick up there kids. The reason catholic schools enrollment is up is because of the way Erie School district realigned the schools and grouped all the parent trash together. Who wants to send there kid to Wilson in the ghetto? Hang with kids who parents don't give a crap... You got to feel bad for many of these kids because their good kids..
What does pajama pants have to do with anything? So if good people wear them they're bad people? Get over yourself.
Amiee

Erie, PA

#6 Mar 11, 2014
furbutt wrote:
<quoted text>
What does pajama pants have to do with anything? So if good people wear them they're bad people? Get over yourself.
Get dressed and accomplish something... Your and idiot probably.
furbutt

Erie, PA

#7 Mar 11, 2014
Amiee wrote:
<quoted text>
Get dressed and accomplish something... Your and idiot probably.
Quick response. I like feisty chicks. BTW it's spelled "you're" "an" idiot...
Amiee

Erie, PA

#8 Mar 11, 2014
furbutt wrote:
<quoted text>
Quick response. I like feisty chicks. BTW it's spelled "you're" "an" idiot...
Ok, your're an idiot! You fell for that one... Only a real idot would!!
spelln nazzi

United States

#9 Mar 11, 2014
Amiee wrote:
<quoted text>
Ok, your're an idiot! You fell for that one... Only a real idot would!!
Pleazzz give it up
Reality Check

Erie, PA

#10 Mar 11, 2014
When Bishop Persico says that the local Catholic grade schools are doing well he has to mean that given the current economical climate these schools are holding their own.
For many years now the Catholic schools in the Erie diocese, most of all the grade schools, have seen their census plummet. There are reasons for this alarming drop of course. The fact that there are fewer kids available certainly is creditable. There is a more powerful factor however that plagues the Catholic schools and that is the price tag. Yes, the almighty dollar has trumped the Almighty in this particular case. Families can no longer afford the tuition like they once could when costs were but a fraction of today's rate.
Do kids receive a better education at these Catholic grade schools than their public counterpart ? In most cases I believe they do, but when it comes to paying the bills of daily living vs. the luxury of a private education most do the prudent thing and take care of immediate business.
There was indeed a time when a Catholic education was incredibly affordable by practically everyone. I recall my parents questioning the reasons why tuition for my brother and I at a Catholic grade school in Erie during the 1960's had to go up to the then unheard of sum of $ 100 a year for the two of us combined ! My brother in-law often reminds people that his freshman year at Cathedral Prep came with the price tag of $ 99 for the entire year. His home parish, St. Luke's at the time subsidized the rest.
I know there are adjustments for inflation but even with that the cost of one child for a Catholic elementary education, approaching the $ 3,000 mark, often becomes unattainable for more than ever for families today. Thus they decide to send their kids to the institutions they already pay for through their tax dollars.
Consider this, if Catholic tuition were reduced by half, these schools would see their numbers rise in impressive fashion. I realize that will never happen but it is an interesting point to think about. This example was given to illustrate that the cost has now become the number one factor as to why Catholic grade schools will fall further behind in terms of their ability to fill seats in their classrooms. Bishop Persico, who seems like a good man, won't come out and tell you that side of the story.
furbutt

Erie, PA

#11 Mar 11, 2014
Reality Check wrote:
When Bishop Persico says that the local Catholic grade schools are doing well he has to mean that given the current economical climate these schools are holding their own.
For many years now the Catholic schools in the Erie diocese, most of all the grade schools, have seen their census plummet. There are reasons for this alarming drop of course. The fact that there are fewer kids available certainly is creditable. There is a more powerful factor however that plagues the Catholic schools and that is the price tag. Yes, the almighty dollar has trumped the Almighty in this particular case. Families can no longer afford the tuition like they once could when costs were but a fraction of today's rate.
Do kids receive a better education at these Catholic grade schools than their public counterpart ? In most cases I believe they do, but when it comes to paying the bills of daily living vs. the luxury of a private education most do the prudent thing and take care of immediate business.
There was indeed a time when a Catholic education was incredibly affordable by practically everyone. I recall my parents questioning the reasons why tuition for my brother and I at a Catholic grade school in Erie during the 1960's had to go up to the then unheard of sum of $ 100 a year for the two of us combined ! My brother in-law often reminds people that his freshman year at Cathedral Prep came with the price tag of $ 99 for the entire year. His home parish, St. Luke's at the time subsidized the rest.
I know there are adjustments for inflation but even with that the cost of one child for a Catholic elementary education, approaching the $ 3,000 mark, often becomes unattainable for more than ever for families today. Thus they decide to send their kids to the institutions they already pay for through their tax dollars.
Consider this, if Catholic tuition were reduced by half, these schools would see their numbers rise in impressive fashion. I realize that will never happen but it is an interesting point to think about. This example was given to illustrate that the cost has now become the number one factor as to why Catholic grade schools will fall further behind in terms of their ability to fill seats in their classrooms. Bishop Persico, who seems like a good man, won't come out and tell you that side of the story.
Good point. That seems to make sense.

I have an honestly serious question because I'm curious, not being a jerk.

I know the bishop is a top local authority and has say over many things but could any member of the Catholic church see exact numbers on such things, then the higher authorities make the calls or is that info only for the special privileged few who then make the calls?
furbutt

Erie, PA

#12 Mar 11, 2014
Amiee wrote:
<quoted text>
Ok, your're an idiot! You fell for that one... Only a real idot would!!
Haha. You got me. I'm a real idot ;)
Okthen

Erie, PA

#13 Mar 11, 2014
Erie and Penna declining jobs and population has a lot to do with school enrollment...
Reality Check

Erie, PA

#14 Mar 11, 2014
Okthen wrote:
Erie and Penna declining jobs and population has a lot to do with school enrollment...
That's exactly right. It all comes down to how much money families can afford to spend on private education. Far fewer can these days because of your point.
Reality Check

Erie, PA

#15 Mar 11, 2014
furbutt wrote:
<quoted text>
Good point. That seems to make sense.
I have an honestly serious question because I'm curious, not being a jerk.
I know the bishop is a top local authority and has say over many things but could any member of the Catholic church see exact numbers on such things, then the higher authorities make the calls or is that info only for the special privileged few who then make the calls?
Apparently only a few get to see "the numbers" when it comes to the Catholic Church.
While a good argument can be made that any Church member should be privy to this information I believe there is a distinct difference between why this is so in the public sector and not so in the world of the Catholic Church.
The funding for a parish and diocese comes strictly from donations that are entirely the choice of church members. No one forces catholics to fund the church. There may be pleas for giving from the pulpit, mailings, and other communications but it's not a law that one must fill the coffers. Therefore people have little to none of the leverage they seem to expect.
Public money is an entirely different situation. Public funding results from levied taxes that citizens have no way of avoiding entirely. When money is taken rather than willfully donated the right to access of information comes into play.
The leaders of Catholic churches often do communicate finances to their members but they also hide information too. They aren't breaking any laws but certainly open themselves to criticism a lot of the time.
morality

Erie, PA

#16 Mar 11, 2014
Index of Catholicism's Decline:

https://www.olrl.org/misc/jones_stats.shtml

Ex: "Priests. While the number of priests in the United States more than doubled to 58,000, between 1930 and 1965, since then that number has fallen to 45,000. By 2020, there will be only 31,000 priests [sic] left, and more than half of these priests [sic] will be over 70."

Ex: "Catholic schools. Almost half of all Catholic [sic] high schools in the United States have closed since 1965. The student population has fallen from 700,000 to 386,000. Parochial schools suffered an even greater decline. Some 4,000 have disappeared, and the number of pupils attending has fallen below 2 million -- from 4.5 million. "

Ex: Merger of St. Boniface and Mount Carmel. It's spelled d-e-c-l-i-n-e.

Homeschool is a viable alternative.

Pagans and gays are monsters who rebel against God's law, however they may not be fully culpable for their actions when they do them in invincible ignorance. It seems very ironic that people point out traditional Catholics as "monsters" for believing that pagans/gays have monsterous sinful "lifestyle choices", which confirms that since pagans think exclusive Catholicism is "unacceptable" or "heretical", the reverse is certainly true that paganism is truly unacceptable and heretical to Catholics.

One learns about pre-Vatican 2 norms by studying the history of the Church and comparing and contrasting writing before Vatican 2 with after Vatican 2 and seeing substantial unacceptable change. There is a true latin mass available at St. Ann's 9:30AM for compare and contrast to the "New Mass" which is at most "Catholic churches", though I would not recommend it.

The other statistics cane from Michael Voris video, the Coming Cliff:


Don't shoot the messenger.

captcha: r e a p w h a t y o u s o w
furbutt

Erie, PA

#17 Mar 11, 2014
Reality Check wrote:
<quoted text>
Apparently only a few get to see "the numbers" when it comes to the Catholic Church.
While a good argument can be made that any Church member should be privy to this information I believe there is a distinct difference between why this is so in the public sector and not so in the world of the Catholic Church.
The funding for a parish and diocese comes strictly from donations that are entirely the choice of church members. No one forces catholics to fund the church. There may be pleas for giving from the pulpit, mailings, and other communications but it's not a law that one must fill the coffers. Therefore people have little to none of the leverage they seem to expect.
Public money is an entirely different situation. Public funding results from levied taxes that citizens have no way of avoiding entirely. When money is taken rather than willfully donated the right to access of information comes into play.
The leaders of Catholic churches often do communicate finances to their members but they also hide information too. They aren't breaking any laws but certainly open themselves to criticism a lot of the time.
Thank you. I did just want a simple answer. But since you brought it up I'll say this. My father was Catholic and after he died we didn't go to St. Stephen's Church anymore. We were told that unless we tithed, even though we didn't attend, we'd be kicked out and we were. So there's that.

You say "nobody forces Catholics to fund the Church". But on a different note isn't that saying nobody expects Catholics to fund the members? That would make no sense. But what I'm pointing out is that many like to say "the Church is the people and the building is owned by the members"...or something like that.

Understand, I'm not criticizing anything just pointing out an oddity with "church" people and perhaps why others think they're full of baloney at times. Many often fit things, especially rationalizations, to the situation they need them to fit to so as to appear united or as if they know what they're talking about when perhaps they don't.

Again, not a criticism. Just and observation that I thought I'd point out to you.
furbutt

Erie, PA

#18 Mar 11, 2014
morality wrote:
Pagans and gays are monsters who rebel against God's law, however they may not be fully culpable for their actions when they do them in invincible ignorance. It seems very ironic that people point out traditional Catholics as "monsters" for believing that pagans/gays have monsterous sinful "lifestyle choices", which confirms that since pagans think exclusive Catholicism is "unacceptable" or "heretical", the reverse is certainly true that paganism is truly unacceptable and heretical to Catholics.
Googling "Pagan" lead to a confusing definition so let's use the words atheists and gays. Atheist's simply don't affirm a god and gays by my definition is to cover men and women.
Relating to atheists this is where many believers including the pope don't have a clue.
Such believers promote atheism as a revolt against God when in fact, it's not that they don't believe God, they don't believe YOU. Isn't the story that we will all stand before God in Judgement? If that were true how many people can you imagine not believing in the God they're standing before? None.
And that's why the pope talking about atheists going to heaven is flat out stupid. No one going to heaven with God would not believe in such a God. Meaning there can be no atheists in heaven, can there?
But toward atheists like gays believers need the narrative to be that both reject God. Gays may leave the Catholic Church but that is not the same as leaving God. They are leaving people they no longer believe no what they're talking about. Again, not believing against God, believing agains YOU.
From what I've read it seems a pretty simple decision for some gays. Since they are attracted to the same sex they simply cannot believe at the same time that a God would be so cruel as to put instinctual attractions within them then condemn them for acting as they were programmed. Some come to see that would be a creul God, not a loving fatherly one. So they conclude YOU are the bearer of lies, not God but those who speak on his behalf. At least that's my understanding.
Curious to hear what y'all think...unless it's "yeah but the Bible says" because the Bible is a collection of what men and women have said. Nothing more.
Reality Check

Erie, PA

#19 Mar 11, 2014
furbutt wrote:
<quoted text>
Thank you. I did just want a simple answer. But since you brought it up I'll say this. My father was Catholic and after he died we didn't go to St. Stephen's Church anymore. We were told that unless we tithed, even though we didn't attend, we'd be kicked out and we were. So there's that.
You say "nobody forces Catholics to fund the Church". But on a different note isn't that saying nobody expects Catholics to fund the members? That would make no sense. But what I'm pointing out is that many like to say "the Church is the people and the building is owned by the members"...or something like that.
Understand, I'm not criticizing anything just pointing out an oddity with "church" people and perhaps why others think they're full of baloney at times. Many often fit things, especially rationalizations, to the situation they need them to fit to so as to appear united or as if they know what they're talking about when perhaps they don't.
Again, not a criticism. Just and observation that I thought I'd point out to you.
There's a difference between "forcing" someone to do something and "expecting" someone to do something. At least concerning this issue.
It's true that members of any church in this country are asked and often times "expected" to give (tithe) to the benefit of that church and those the money is designed to assist. Pressure, often expressed through guilt is a classic tactic that usually works in the church's favor.
But, and this is key, members are never forced into a giving action to the point of penalties where their assets are garnered against their wishes. Some churches may actually apply penalties such as being "kicked out" but as a catholic I have never personally witnessed that type of action. I'm not saying it has never happened, just that I know of no one among the four various Erie parishes I have been a member of over the past six decades. If your curiosity wonders why I have been a member of four different local parishes it's because I have lived within the boundary lines of parishes closer to my residence and nearer proximity was my desire. I was always satisfied with each of my neighborhood parishes.
"Forcing" people to do something with legal penalties,(jail, fines, property liens, etc.) are matters that people can't escape from and must follow as directed.
In that light, people are indeed "expected" to fund the church but no one is "forced" to. If pressures become to much to bear that person has the freedom to move on. Not so if the forcing comes from entities that can exercise legal penalties on you. That's how I see it anyway.
furbutt

Erie, PA

#20 Mar 12, 2014
If a church authority says do x or you're out, that's fair. As the story goes we all have free will. But what isn't fair in any sense IMO is to listen to ignoramouses who don't even know their own religion, let alone the facts of other religions or irreligion, tell me that I must do as they say or some God will deny me salvation.
In the situation of being excluded from a church you know what your choices are and as it's in the physical world so you can understand what it means. But when ignorant people are supposedly relaying the message of God you never know what choice if any you are debating.
Many religionists don't know what they're even talking about, not to mention that what they claim is indistinguishable from imagination.
So that's not a situation of being forced, expected or even coerced into something. It's a matter of them saying you have a choice to decide when it's not reliable if that choice is real or even for sure what you're choosing. In short they just want you to choose what they think you are choosing; their view. No thanks.
That makes as little sense as Muslims who insist you convert to Islam at the point of a sword. Some convert to save themselves from decapitation but are you sincerely converting to Islam if you don't know what you're agreeing to be a convert of?
Point being, chuches and members are free to do as they please. But for them to speak of what the experience of an atheist is, they're out of their realm and that's a real sign that they are merely phonies who have no clue what they're talking about.
No disrespect intended. I'm just pointing out that when church members point to the evil of nonbelief or homosexuality they have no idea what that experience entails. And make no mistake those are specific experiences not just something people do to disrespect some type of God that exists only in the believers imagination, not the deciders.
Curious if you understand all that or have any comment. You seem fair minded in that you seem to simply be trying to explain from your view of the church's position. I can respect that.

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