New Law Helps Transgender Students

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Inquiring Mind

Quakertown, PA

#1 Feb 26, 2013
This is something I saw on O'Reilly tonight and I wondered how people felt about it, especially TerryE.

The law allows children, as young as Kindergartners, who can "sincerely" show that they want to have a different gender identity during school hours to wear the opposite gender's clothes, change their names, and be treated as one of their preferred gender -- WITHOUT THE APPROVAL OR EVEN KNOWLEDGE OF THE PARENTS!

http://www.doe.mass.edu/ssce/GenderIdentity.p...

Liberalism run amok or a good idea?
To me, it sounds like more govt intrusion into private lives. Schools should stick to educating children. Period. That doesn't mean being insensitive to transgender students.
Major Malfunction

Quakertown, PA

#2 Feb 26, 2013
I'll take Liberals run amok for $500.00 Alex
dbar

Perkasie, PA

#3 Feb 26, 2013
Inquiring Mind wrote:
This is something I saw on O'Reilly tonight and I wondered how people felt about it, especially TerryE.
The law allows children, as young as Kindergartners, who can "sincerely" show that they want to have a different gender identity during school hours to wear the opposite gender's clothes, change their names, and be treated as one of their preferred gender -- WITHOUT THE APPROVAL OR EVEN KNOWLEDGE OF THE PARENTS!
http://www.doe.mass.edu/ssce/GenderIdentity.p...
Liberalism run amok or a good idea?
To me, it sounds like more govt intrusion into private lives. Schools should stick to educating children. Period. That doesn't mean being insensitive to transgender students.
did you read the article you cited?

"The responsibility for determining a studentís gender identity rests with the student or, in the case of young students not yet able to advocate for themselves, with the parent."

"As with most other issues involved with creating a safe and supportive environment for transgender students, the best course is to engage the student, and in the case of a younger student, the parent, with respect to name and pronoun use, and agree on a plan to initiate that name and pronoun use within the school. The plan also could include when and how this is communicated to students and their parents."

"A student who is 14 years of age or older, or who has entered the ninth grade, may consent to disclosure of information from his or her student record. If a student is under 14 and is not yet in the ninth grade, the studentís parent (alone) has the authority to decide on disclosures and other student record matters."

sounds like the article prefers to involve the parents when possible.
where does billo get the parents knowledge is excluded from 4 yr old children?
Offroad

Hatfield, PA

#4 Feb 27, 2013
Inquiring Mind wrote:
This is something I saw on O'Reilly tonight and I wondered how people felt about it, especially TerryE.
The law allows children, as young as Kindergartners, who can "sincerely" show that they want to have a different gender identity during school hours to wear the opposite gender's clothes, change their names, and be treated as one of their preferred gender -- WITHOUT THE APPROVAL OR EVEN KNOWLEDGE OF THE PARENTS!
http://www.doe.mass.edu/ssce/GenderIdentity.p...
Liberalism run amok or a good idea?
To me, it sounds like more govt intrusion into private lives. Schools should stick to educating children. Period. That doesn't mean being insensitive to transgender students.
Where exactly (what page) does it say "WITHOUT THE APPROVAL OR EVEN KNOWLEDGE OF THE PARENTS"?
Jersey Duke

Quakertown, PA

#5 Feb 27, 2013
Liberal plot to destroy any vestige of normal civilization. When they break down the whole system then we will fall easily into their schemes for the communist society they desire.
JJJ

Lafayette Hill, PA

#6 Feb 27, 2013
"I advocate for personal freedom, unless it gives people the freedom to act outside of my vision of what life should be like."

Since: Jan 09

Central NJ

#7 Feb 27, 2013
I can't help but see this as a step in the right direction! Having lived through "The Crap" for most of my life, I applaud any attempt to take some of the misery out of our lives. As Most of you know, I'm NOT a liberal.I'm pretty conservative on most issues. The problems come in with interpretation of motives. Die hard conservatives have a one size fits all view of human behavior. Any deviation from their norm is a moral lapse or a character flaw. Liberals take the view that life should wide open to whatever feels good today. They're both right and wrong. Life has to have some enjoyment! Why are we living? God, Allah, Nature, Whatever, saw fit to bless me or curse me with this affliction. I grew up in a time that condemned it. Fortunately, that is no longer true. I have a Mensa level IQ, But I feel I was driven out of high school in the tenth grade because of it. Conservatives must recognize that it is a physiological phenomena, and not a affectation to get attention. To back this up, there is a Dutch study of post mortem rains of Dead Transexuals that verified a difference in their brains AND a similarity with those of natal females.
It will be interesting to see how this law will be administrated. That's where the problems will come in.
Regards, Terri
Inquiring Mind

North Wales, PA

#8 Feb 27, 2013
dbar wrote:
<quoted text>
did you read the article you cited?
"The responsibility for determining a studentís gender identity rests with the student or, in the case of young students not yet able to advocate for themselves, with the parent."
"As with most other issues involved with creating a safe and supportive environment for transgender students, the best course is to engage the student, and in the case of a younger student, the parent, with respect to name and pronoun use, and agree on a plan to initiate that name and pronoun use within the school. The plan also could include when and how this is communicated to students and their parents."
"A student who is 14 years of age or older, or who has entered the ninth grade, may consent to disclosure of information from his or her student record. If a student is under 14 and is not yet in the ninth grade, the studentís parent (alone) has the authority to decide on disclosures and other student record matters."
sounds like the article prefers to involve the parents when possible.
where does billo get the parents knowledge is excluded from 4 yr old children?
Yes, I did - did you even read your own quote? It says "The responsibility for determining a studentís gender identity rests with the STUDENT..." Students under 18 are not adults and these decisions should not be made without parent involvement - whether or not a school employee thinks that the student can "advocate for himself or herself."

The bit about students under 14 does not say that parents have a say about what happens during school hours. It only pertains to "disclosure and other student record matters" and says that a plan COULD involve the parents, not that it MUST involve the parents. That one word makes a world of difference!

Since: Jan 09

Central NJ

#9 Feb 27, 2013
It's gonna be pretty hard for a kid to leave the house as Bobby and then change to "Bobbi" by changing into a dress S/he hid in the bushes. Other kids will go home and tell their parents. I give her three days before the whole town is talking (Don't ask me how I know!) I'm not happy about circumventing the parents authority. These discisions should be the parent's, not the state's.
Regards, Terri
Inquiring Mind wrote:
opposite gender's clothes, change their names, and be treated as one of their preferred gender -- WITHOUT THE APPROVAL OR EVEN KNOWLEDGE OF THE PARENTS!
http://www.doe.mass.edu/ssce/GenderIdentity.p...
Liberalism run amok or a good idea?
To me, it sounds like more govt intrusion into private lives. Schools should stick to educating children. Period. That doesn't mean being insensitive to transgender students.
Inquiring Mind

North Wales, PA

#10 Feb 27, 2013
Offroad wrote:
<quoted text>Where exactly (what page) does it say "WITHOUT THE APPROVAL OR EVEN KNOWLEDGE OF THE PARENTS"?
From Page 4 (in part):

"Confirmation of a studentís asserted gender identity MAY include a letter from a parent...".

From Page 7(in part):

"When determining which, if any, staff or students should be informed that a studentís gender identity is different from the assigned birth sex, decisions should be made in consultation with the STUDENT, or in the case of a young student, the studentís parent or guardian."

"This means that if a transgender student whose gender identity is male has a school record that reflects an assigned birth sex as female, then upon request by the STUDENT or, in the case of young students not yet able to advocate for themselves, by the parent or guardian"

"If a student is from 14 through 17 years of age or has entered ninth grade, both the parent and the student may make decisions concerning the student record, or EITHER THE STUDENT or the parent ACTING ALONE may decide."

It is clear that the intent of this law is noble and that ideally parents will be consulted in the case of "younger" children. But it is equally clear that a student over 14 can make his or her own decisions without involvement or approval by the parents or legal guardians. A child under 17 is NOT an adult, not capable of making legal decisions or legally having sex with adults. To make parental approval an "option" in important life decisions is social engineering at its Orwellian worst.
Inquiring Mind

North Wales, PA

#11 Feb 27, 2013
JJJ wrote:
"I advocate for personal freedom, unless it gives people the freedom to act outside of my vision of what life should be like."
Nice to hear from you again, JJJ. Who are you quoting? Sounds like BHO to me.
Inquiring Mind

North Wales, PA

#12 Feb 27, 2013
TerryE wrote:
I can't help but see this as a step in the right direction! Having lived through "The Crap" for most of my life, I applaud any attempt to take some of the misery out of our lives. As Most of you know, I'm NOT a liberal.I'm pretty conservative on most issues. The problems come in with interpretation of motives. Die hard conservatives have a one size fits all view of human behavior. Any deviation from their norm is a moral lapse or a character flaw. Liberals take the view that life should wide open to whatever feels good today. They're both right and wrong. Life has to have some enjoyment! Why are we living? God, Allah, Nature, Whatever, saw fit to bless me or curse me with this affliction. I grew up in a time that condemned it. Fortunately, that is no longer true. I have a Mensa level IQ, But I feel I was driven out of high school in the tenth grade because of it. Conservatives must recognize that it is a physiological phenomena, and not a affectation to get attention. To back this up, there is a Dutch study of post mortem rains of Dead Transexuals that verified a difference in their brains AND a similarity with those of natal females.
It will be interesting to see how this law will be administrated. That's where the problems will come in.
Regards, Terri
Thank you Terri! Yes, it is in the administration of this law where the problems lie. Like I said, the intent is noble.

Since: Jan 09

Central NJ

#13 Feb 27, 2013
Try these sites for more info,
Lynnconway.com (One of the best!) scroll down to Transexual Women's successes.

Dr Becky.com (Heart surg., Dr Becky Allison)

WWW.InternationaltransgenderHi storical Society

See how these Women (and men) have lived their lives. These sites are not pornographic in any way. They are merely sites to show a good side of this little known phenomena. To offset the popular view that all TSes are street people, who are incapable of supporting them selves or leading honorable lives.
Regards, Terri
Inquiring Mind

North Wales, PA

#14 Feb 27, 2013
TerryE wrote:
Try these sites for more info,
Lynnconway.com (One of the best!) scroll down to Transexual Women's successes.
Dr Becky.com (Heart surg., Dr Becky Allison)
WWW.InternationaltransgenderHi storical Society
See how these Women (and men) have lived their lives. These sites are not pornographic in any way. They are merely sites to show a good side of this little known phenomena. To offset the popular view that all TSes are street people, who are incapable of supporting them selves or leading honorable lives.
Regards, Terri
I have to say that this is a whole new world to me and it is fascinating. I recently went with my wife to a Women's Diagnostic Center and saw a teen-aged boy there with an adult male, presumably his father. I guess he could have been there for a breast cancer test, but I couldn't help but think he may be a transgender. I'm glad that this is now coming to light and causing changes for the better. I just think laws that usurp parents' authority are examples of govt overreach.
JJJ

Lafayette Hill, PA

#15 Feb 27, 2013
Inquiring Mind wrote:
<quoted text>
Nice to hear from you again, JJJ. Who are you quoting? Sounds like BHO to me.
Just paraphrasing Jersey Duke.
dbar

Perkasie, PA

#16 Feb 27, 2013
Inquiring Mind wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes, I did - did you even read your own quote? It says "The responsibility for determining a studentís gender identity rests with the STUDENT..." Students under 18 are not adults and these decisions should not be made without parent involvement - whether or not a school employee thinks that the student can "advocate for himself or herself."
The bit about students under 14 does not say that parents have a say about what happens during school hours. It only pertains to "disclosure and other student record matters" and says that a plan COULD involve the parents, not that it MUST involve the parents. That one word makes a world of difference!
so there is a large exaggeration by billo in claiming 4 yr olds can change their gender identity without any parent being informed.
seems the bar is around 14 at the earliest.
and those 14 yr old kids may have gender issues with parents who refuse to acknowledge those issues.
in such a case what should the school's response be?
Inquiring Mind

North Wales, PA

#17 Feb 27, 2013
dbar wrote:
<quoted text>
so there is a large exaggeration by billo in claiming 4 yr olds can change their gender identity without any parent being informed.
seems the bar is around 14 at the earliest.
and those 14 yr old kids may have gender issues with parents who refuse to acknowledge those issues.
in such a case what should the school's response be?
Maybe some exaggeration, I'll concede that. But the bar is still way too low at 14. It's possible that kids just going through puberty have gender issues and parents who don't acknowledge that or who have different opinions about it. The kid may also be confused about it. The school's response? Bring it up to the parents through the school counselor and work with them to come up with a plan - not leaving them out or overriding their authority.

As a country, we're falling behind in the classroom in spite of record spending on education. Schools should stick to basics and get this country back on track. The "student rights" movement has resulted in failure to respect authority and chaos in our educational system to the point where a student can tell a teacher to F-off without fear of recrimination. They are encouraged to think of themselves as independent adults, even smarter than their parents - who are portrayed in our TV culture as morons. Yes, Liberalism run amok IMO.

Since: Jan 09

Central NJ

#18 Feb 27, 2013
The schools should back off and not get between the parent and child.
Regards, Terri
dbar wrote:
<quoted text>
so there is a large exaggeration by billo in claiming 4 yr olds can change their gender identity without any parent being informed.
seems the bar is around 14 at the earliest.
and those 14 yr old kids may have gender issues with parents who refuse to acknowledge those issues.
in such a case what should the school's response be?
JJJ

Lafayette Hill, PA

#19 Feb 27, 2013
Inquiring Mind wrote:
<quoted text>
The "student rights" movement has resulted in failure to respect authority and chaos in our educational system to the point where a student can tell a teacher to F-off without fear of recrimination. They are encouraged to think of themselves as independent adults, even smarter than their parents - who are portrayed in our TV culture as morons.
You don't think this is the fault of these kids' parents? As far as I can tell, schools haven't changed much, but parenting has.

This comic tells the story perfectly:

http://www.mamamia.com.au/wp-content/comment-...
Inquiring Mind

North Wales, PA

#20 Feb 27, 2013
JJJ wrote:
<quoted text>
You don't think this is the fault of these kids' parents? As far as I can tell, schools haven't changed much, but parenting has.
This comic tells the story perfectly:
http://www.mamamia.com.au/wp-content/comment-...
You're right that many parents have shifted responsibility to the schools, that's part of the problem. But the schools have also changed drastically in the way they are administered. Talk to any teacher who's been in the system for more than 20 years and they will tell you how the pendulum has swung and how difficult bureaucracy has made their job. Same thing with law enforcement. They have to walk on eggshells to avoid being sued or being politically incorrect. "Empowering Students" is just another way of saying "Castrating Teachers."

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