Their View: Preserving access to our nation's forests

May 17, 2012 | Posted by: roboblogger | Full story: Las Cruces Sun-News

I attended the second annual Keep Our Forests Open rally in Truth or Consequences, N.M. recently.

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1 - 8 of 8 Comments Last updated Aug 23, 2012
Tom

Albuquerque, NM

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May 17, 2012
 

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It's ironic that in a time when many, including Stevan Pearce, call for drastic cuts in government spending, a government agency attempting to improve its efficiency and save taxpayer money is called tyrannical, against American citizens, part of a "conspiracy" to steal "rights."

The truth is that the Gila National Forest, in responding to a Congressional mandate voted for by Representative Pearce during the Bush years, decided to maintain enough roads to connect Silver City and Washington DC.

The truth is that the "successful" rally in Silver City did not represent the people who weekly hike or ride through the forest. The truth is that the Forest Service in an excruciatingly long public comment period solicited and received opinions from all the residents near the forest.

That congress people urge others to break the law, tell lies to stir animosity, and knowingly mislead constituents is a sad reflection on civic responsibility.
AntiNWO

Springdale, AR

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May 26, 2012
 

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Google AGENDA 21 for more on this and more of what is coming for FEMA Region six.

Since: Mar 10

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May 26, 2012
 

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The original "article" in this thread is a hilarious, opinion-driven propaganda piece authored by an admitted Freemason... and passed off as serious journalism. No, REALLY! Just click on the "Full-story: Las Cruces Sun-News" link located at the top of the page in order to read.

It is truly unfortunate for Sierra County that Sheriff Baca allows himself to be influenced by the Sovereign Citizen Movement. In fact, he's been meeting with members of a local branch that include an admitted former associate of General Stubblebine(Men Who Stare at Goats).

http://www.youtube.com/watch...

C.I.A. operatives are obviously much smarter than the "patriotic" zealots they adroitly manipulate into a mindless mass of foaming reactionaries, especilly when they're assisted by an elected federal con-man like Steve Pearce.

It really shouldn't take a whole lot more effort by a couple of well-placed agent provacateurs in order to get them all arrested for conspiracy by federal authorities.

Since: Apr 12

United States

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May 26, 2012
 

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durablebrad wrote:
The original "article" in this thread is a hilarious, opinion-driven propaganda piece authored by an admitted Freemason... and passed off as serious journalism. No, REALLY! Just click on the "Full-story: Las Cruces Sun-News" link located at the top of the page in order to read.
It is truly unfortunate for Sierra County that Sheriff Baca allows himself to be influenced by the Sovereign Citizen Movement. In fact, he's been meeting with members of a local branch that include an admitted former associate of General Stubblebine(Men Who Stare at Goats).
http://www.youtube.com/watch...
C.I.A. operatives are obviously much smarter than the "patriotic" zealots they adroitly manipulate into a mindless mass of foaming reactionaries, especilly when they're assisted by an elected federal con-man like Steve Pearce.
It really shouldn't take a whole lot more effort by a couple of well-placed agent provacateurs in order to get them all arrested for conspiracy by federal authorities.
You idiot the forest needs to be keep open if you close forest roads kick cattle out well we have fires like the Whitewater-Baldy Complex . If you do your homework then you would know that it is just not Sheriff Joe Baca there is a lot of sheriffs, counties and Citizens stand up say no to the fed and Obama .

Since: Mar 10

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May 26, 2012
 

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fed up sierra county r wrote:
<quoted text> You idiot the forest needs to be keep open if you close forest roads kick cattle out well we have fires like the Whitewater-Baldy Complex . If you do your homework then you would know that it is just not Sheriff Joe Baca there is a lot of sheriffs, counties and Citizens stand up say no to the fed and Obama .
Thank you Mr. Kuzdrowski for demonstrating just what an abusive individual you are. It's unfortunate that you cannot simply accept the fact that others have an inalienable right to disagree with the positions that you may take. Polite debate generally does not include resorting to name-calling, unless does not have a point to argue. Here's five of mine:

1) Forest fires are not caused by the removal of cattle nor the closing of roads. In point of fact, motorized vehicles and the people who use them to access remote areas, are much more likely to cause fires during times of extreme drought.

2) There is no restriction of access in any of our public lands other than those on fire or currently in the process of recovering from a previous fire. Just because you can't drive a motorized vehicle in them does not mean that they are not open for hiking, horseback riding, or biking... or even grazing.

3) There are many Sheriffs throughout the West who have figured out that the Sovereign Citizen Movement can provide them with the means to consolidate more political and legal power. That does not mean that they are taking actions out of the generosity of their hearts. Remember... Sheriffs are actually politicians too.

4) The constant complaints about all of the money being wasted by federal authorities(and Obama) seem to conveniently disappear whenever there is talk of saving taxpayers the cost of road maintenance by instituting a policy of road closures. One simply cannot have it both ways. There has to be a source willing to ante up for the actual cost of maintaining BLM and Forest Service roads, and I don't think Sierra County, New Mexico has the funds.

5) The Sovereign Citizen Movement has been determined by none other than the F.B.I to be an "extremist, anti-government group," whose most well-known member to date has been the convicted Oklahoma City bombing conspirator, Terry Nichols. This is really not the most appropriate group for a handful of elected law enforcement officers in the rural West to be associating with.
Dan

Espanola, NM

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#6
Aug 23, 2012
 
durablebrad wrote:
<quoted text>
Thank you Mr. Kuzdrowski for demonstrating just what an abusive individual you are. It's unfortunate that you cannot simply accept the fact that others have an inalienable right to disagree with the positions that you may take. Polite debate generally does not include resorting to name-calling, unless does not have a point to argue. Here's five of mine:
1) Forest fires are not caused by the removal of cattle nor the closing of roads. In point of fact, motorized vehicles and the people who use them to access remote areas, are much more likely to cause fires during times of extreme drought.
2) There is no restriction of access in any of our public lands other than those on fire or currently in the process of recovering from a previous fire. Just because you can't drive a motorized vehicle in them does not mean that they are not open for hiking, horseback riding, or biking... or even grazing.
3) There are many Sheriffs throughout the West who have figured out that the Sovereign Citizen Movement can provide them with the means to consolidate more political and legal power. That does not mean that they are taking actions out of the generosity of their hearts. Remember... Sheriffs are actually politicians too.
4) The constant complaints about all of the money being wasted by federal authorities(and Obama) seem to conveniently disappear whenever there is talk of saving taxpayers the cost of road maintenance by instituting a policy of road closures. One simply cannot have it both ways. There has to be a source willing to ante up for the actual cost of maintaining BLM and Forest Service roads, and I don't think Sierra County, New Mexico has the funds.
5) The Sovereign Citizen Movement has been determined by none other than the F.B.I to be an "extremist, anti-government group," whose most well-known member to date has been the convicted Oklahoma City bombing conspirator, Terry Nichols. This is really not the most appropriate group for a handful of elected law enforcement officers in the rural West to be associating with.
Unfortunately, there are many, many misinformed people like this guy about the forest.
1) No, forest fires are not caused by the removal of cattle, etc. as in your post. Catastrophic forest fires in the Forests are caused by mismanagement by the Forest Service over the last couple of decades, because of policies promoted by environmentalists. Studies have shown that, at least in Arizona and New Mexico, healthy forests contain about 50-70 trees per acre. In New Mexico, because the forest service has eliminated logging and other activities that help clean the forests, the density of trees per acre are, in some forests, 1,100 to 1,200 per acre. This is the reason the fires are now catastrophic in so many cases.
2) In the Gila National Forest, there are (between the Gila and Aldo Leopold wilderness areas) about 900,000 acres of wilderness for you to hike, horseback, etc. Why do you want to deny access to the remaining non-wilderness forest that all others enjoy? If you hiked 24/7 in the Gila Wilderness every day for the rest of your life, you couldn't see it all. People using vehicles to enjoy the forest are just as concerned about the environment of the forest as you are. I've spent 60-90 days a year in the Gila for the past 25 years, and I have not seen any environmental damage caused by vehicles.
3) I know Sheriff Joe Baca personally, and he has a passion for defending the constitution. I don't know where you got your propaganda related to the Sovereign Citizen Movement, but Sheriff Baca is not a member.

There is a movement in the USFS to usurp the congressional authority of establishing wilderness areas within the forests. The USFS is trying to close most of the forest access all over the west. In the Gila, the Forest Service's Travel Management Plan intends to close over 90% of the vehicular access and most of the "dispersed camping". It's not right.

Since: Mar 10

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#7
Aug 23, 2012
 
Dan wrote:
<quoted text>
Unfortunately, there are many, many misinformed people like this guy about the forest.
1) No, forest fires are not caused by the removal of cattle, etc. as in your post. Catastrophic forest fires in the Forests are caused by mismanagement by the Forest Service over the last couple of decades, because of policies promoted by environmentalists. Studies have shown that, at least in Arizona and New Mexico, healthy forests contain about 50-70 trees per acre. In New Mexico, because the forest service has eliminated logging and other activities that help clean the forests, the density of trees per acre are, in some forests, 1,100 to 1,200 per acre. This is the reason the fires are now catastrophic in so many cases.
2) In the Gila National Forest, there are (between the Gila and Aldo Leopold wilderness areas) about 900,000 acres of wilderness for you to hike, horseback, etc. Why do you want to deny access to the remaining non-wilderness forest that all others enjoy? If you hiked 24/7 in the Gila Wilderness every day for the rest of your life, you couldn't see it all. People using vehicles to enjoy the forest are just as concerned about the environment of the forest as you are. I've spent 60-90 days a year in the Gila for the past 25 years, and I have not seen any environmental damage caused by vehicles.
3) I know Sheriff Joe Baca personally, and he has a passion for defending the constitution. I don't know where you got your propaganda related to the Sovereign Citizen Movement, but Sheriff Baca is not a member.
There is a movement in the USFS to usurp the congressional authority of establishing wilderness areas within the forests. The USFS is trying to close most of the forest access all over the west. In the Gila, the Forest Service's Travel Management Plan intends to close over 90% of the vehicular access and most of the "dispersed camping". It's not right.
A short reply to Dan:

1.)During the thousands of years of human civilization in New Mexico, prior to the industrialization of man and the advent of affordable mechanized transportation forests thrived. They were no limits to the number of trees per acre and the natives who lived in these ares did not have chainsaws... or even serrated cutting tools that could have been used to saw a tree. MIRACLE OF MIRACLES.. the forest not only survived, but thrived. This is proven by the fact of their existence today.

2.) Once again Dan, "access" as you define it, would appear to include motorized transport. By definition, access refers to the ability of a person on foot, horseback, or bicycle to obtain entry to National Forest lands. Unfortunately, as Americans have grown lazier and more accustomed to the ease of access by the proliferation of cheap off-road mechanized vehicles, the forest has become negatively impacted (erosion, noise pollution, air pollution, trash, vandalism, etc.) by both the vehicles and many of the people who use them. Just because you have never seen the evidence does not mean that others have not.

3.) Planning and Zoning Commissioner Lee Foerstner proudly stated that both Sheriff Baca and Jared Bartoo had attended local meetings of the Sovereign Citizen movement. I do not consider Foerstner an unimpeachable source since I have heard him lie before, but those were his words not mine.

As for your "fear" of the USFS: Exactly how can this organization monitor who is, or is not camping in restricted areas when budget cuts are reducing their staff to a skeleton crew, with the majority or funding dedicated to fire teams and support personnel?

They can put up all kinds of signs, but people like myself and others will keep strapping on a pack and hiking or riding wherever we want. It's only the lazy people in 4x4's and on ATV's that are affected... AND RIGHTLY SO!

Since: Mar 10

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#8
Aug 23, 2012
 
In reply to Dan:

1.) Humans have lived in the Gila and throughout New Mexico for THOUSANDS of years. During that time (when there was no logging industry to recommend how many trees were appropriate per acre), the forests were healthy and thrived. Fires caused by human negligence and arson are a problem, but not because a dense forest is a hazard... but because irresponsible Americans are a hazard. The only thing "catastrophic" about wildfires is the fact that residential dwellings have encroached into the National Forest and are thereby threatened with destruction. Forest fires are a natural, healthy process actually REQUIRED in order for some types of trees to germinate.

2.) The definition and use of the sole word "access," is not meant to apply to motorized vehicles. PERIOD. It is a term used to describes the ability of people on foot, bicycle, or horseback to access BLM and National Forest Lands. Perhaps all of those who keep whining about "access" such as yourself, really mean to say "easy access." The proliferation of the use of motorized 4x4's and ATV's to provide easy access to public lands has impacted the environment in many negative ways: air pollution, water pollution, noise pollution, erosion, trash, graffiti, commercial development, and vandalism. These impacts are well-documented by many who enjoy public lands, even if you would still claim that you cannot see them.

3.) Truth or Consequences Planning and Zoning Commissioner Lee Foerstner stated that Sheriff Joe Baca had attended local Soveriegn Citizen movement meetings. Although I have observed Mr. Foerstner to lie in public before, I believe he mentioned Sheriff Baca's involvement because he believed it might add legitimacy to the organization.

As for closures of wilderness areas to camping, I will continue to do what I've done for more than a decade: hike into the locations I wish to enjoy, and then pack out all of my trash when I leave.

People need to stop fearing the government. Forest Service budget cuts have sinificantly reducing the ability of Rangers to monitor anything (even private citizens termed as "campground hosts" are utilized to monitor developed campgrounds). The majority of funds are being diverted to control wildfires and subsidize the private contractors that suck off the government teat by providing things like meals and laundry services to firefighters.

The Forest Service can no longer afford to maintain the roads that lazy Americans have used for decades in order to drive to remote destinations. And although that might be a painful imposition to some, I welcome it... because it means that Forest Service staff will be too busy to ruin my stay on public lands.

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