Feds propose 5 counties jump time zones

Feds propose 5 counties jump time zones

There are 179 comments on the The Indianapolis Star story from Jul 17, 2007, titled Feds propose 5 counties jump time zones. In it, The Indianapolis Star reports that:

Five southwestern Indiana counties that switched to Central time last year would be allowed to move back to Eastern time under a proposed rule announced today by the U.S. Department of Transportation.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at The Indianapolis Star.

First Prev
of 9
Next Last
Libertarian for DST

Indianapolis, IN

#169 Jul 20, 2007
It was my understanding wrote:
That these counties went to Central assuming that the Governor would live up to his campaign promise of putting Indiana on Central time. Of course, thanks to the golf lobby and others, Indiana remains in the same time zone as New York and Washington DC as oppose to say, Chicago. Oh well.
Does your understanding extend to the difference between a promise and an opinion? The truth is that Daniels never promised to put Indiana on Central time. When asked, he said that he thought Central made the most sense. If those counties (or you) are stupid enough to think that this was some kind of rock solid commitment ...

More truth - Daniels would have preferred Central Time for most of the state - but politically that wasn't possible. He always knew that the entire state would not be in a single time zone - and much as he may have privatley preferred that it was never pretended that there wouldn't be a line drawn somewhere.

There are lots of legitimate things to criticize Mitch (or Bauer, etc...) for - but whining about a broken promise that was never made is no more itelligent than the fools that can only mock his height or Pat's hair.

Since: Jan 07

Columbus, Indiana

#170 Jul 23, 2007
Southern Indiana (#50 Tuesday Jul 17) wrote, "There is only 1 reason Martin and Daviees petitioned to be changed back to Eastern and it isn't because they want to be in sync with Indy (frankly most people down here don't care about Indy), and it isn't because they realized how much they want an extra hour of daylight in the evening..."

The big question in my mind is how would Hoosiers reply if you asked it something like this. "What time zone would you want to be in if Indianapolis and your surrounding counties were in the same zone?"

Hoosiers Love Everyone (#69 Tuesday Jul 17) wrote, "If the entire state was on Central Time, the light patterns in the winter months would be drastically changed, resulting in the sunset occurring before 5:00 pm in the winter months. If you think people are angry now about the light patterns, see what will happen if THAT scenario came to pass. By the way, aren't 13 or so states on multiple time zones? If they can do it, why can't we?"

I don't see enough people asking, "What is the normal winter sunset time for our distance from the equator?"

For places near the middle of their time zone, and at the same latitude as Indianapolis (like Philadelphia, St. Louis, Denver, Reno), the normal earliest sunset on December 7 is about 4:35 pm, so if we were on central time and had our earliest sunset at 4:20, that would be pretty close to average for our latitude.

Regarding multiple time zones, the other states split between multiple time zones are all significantly wider than Indiana, and I can't think of any that fall geographically entirely into one zone that are split like us.

Several posts (99, 118) mention that many prefer shifting a maximum of 45 minutes of sunlight from morning to evening (central daylight time), rather than 1 hour and 45 minutes (eastern daylight). I am among those.

Student (#126 Tuesday Jul 17), "Oh, and if you look at a map, you'll realize that the line between Eastern and Central should be the Ohio-Pennsylvania border. So, not only should Indiana be on Central, but so should Michigan and Ohio."

Fortunately, Bryan corrected this error (#153). The natural boundary of 82.5 degrees longitude runs through the middle of Ohio and very near the eastern borders of Michigan, Kentucky, and Tennessee.

I can see why Ohio would have wanted the natural boundary shifted to its western border, so the entire state would be on the same time zone. I can see why Michigan and Kentucky might have shifted the boundary westward in their states as well, to line up with Ohio's western border. South of Kentucky, it appears that the boundary pretty much aligns with Ohio's western border all the way to the gulf.

Bill Starr
Mon, 23 Jul 2007, 8:00 am EDT
word cop

Worthville, KY

#171 Jul 23, 2007
No wonder things never get accomplished. Adapt and get on with life. There are issues that really matter and this isn't in any remote way one of them.
Southern Indiana

Ellettsville, IN

#172 Jul 23, 2007
Spoken like someone who hasn't spent the last year living in one time zone and working in another!
word cop wrote:
No wonder things never get accomplished. Adapt and get on with life. There are issues that really matter and this isn't in any remote way one of them.
word cop

Worthville, KY

#173 Jul 23, 2007
Southern Indiana wrote:
Spoken like someone who hasn't spent the last year living in one time zone and working in another!
<quoted text>
Good point and one I hadn't thought of. I am sure though that there are those who are going the opposite direction and loving it.

Since: Jan 07

Columbus, Indiana

#174 Jul 23, 2007
word cop (#171) wrote, "No wonder things never get accomplished. Adapt and get on with life. There are issues that really matter and this isn't in any remote way one of them."

I freely admit that it matters in my life what time the clock reads when the sun rises, passes overhead, and sets. I think cultural conditioning tells most of us that the clock should read somewhere close to 12:00 at midday and midnight (or 1:00 when observing DST).

I see this implied in the very layout of the time zones -- 24 one-hour-wide regions with the clocks for the whole region set to match Local Mean Time (LMT) at the middle of each zone, with no one's clock meant to be more than plus or minus 30 minutes from their own LMT, depending on which side of the middle they happen to be on.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Local_mean_time

I read the implication in your post that the time zone issue does not matter to you, and therefore should not matter to anyone else either.

But it crosses my mind that perhaps the writer "doth protest too much," when I see that you have just added posts 171 and 173 to a near-dormant thread largely about Indiana's time zone.

A man once said, "Woe to you....[who] have neglected the weightier matters.... These you ought to have done, without neglecting the others [i.e., the less weighty matters]."

I certainly agree with you that there are other worthy issues for public discourse. I frequently contact my state legislators and U.S. Congressmen on other topics, but without ignoring the time zone issue, which is also important to me.

There is certainly nothing mutually exclusive about weighing in on both the time zone and on other issues of the day.

Best regards, Bill Starr
Mon, 23 Jul 2007, 1:46 pm EDT
word cop

Worthville, KY

#175 Jul 23, 2007
bill_starr wrote:
I read the implication in your post that the time zone issue does not matter to you, and therefore should not matter to anyone else either.
But it crosses my mind that perhaps the writer "doth protest too much," when I see that you have just added posts 171 and 173 to a near-dormant thread largely about Indiana's time zone.
A man once said, "Woe to you....[who] have neglected the weightier matters.... These you ought to have done, without neglecting the others [i.e., the less weighty matters]."
Mon, 23 Jul 2007, 1:46 pm EDT
The time zone matters to me and we have been affected by it but its life...things happen and I try to adjust. I've enjoyed the extra time in the evening to do daylight things. My wife isn't crazy about it. I will say that I never have a clue what time it is anymore. I haven't worn a watch in 15 years and its seems its always later than I realize.

I don't know about your computer but on mine anytime there is activity on a thread it tells me this. So it came across the radar screen.

I would agree that one must focus on weighty things and trivial things or burnout may occur.

Good points!

Since: Jan 07

Columbus, Indiana

#176 Jul 23, 2007
word cop (#175) wrote, "The time zone matters to me and we have been affected by it but its life... things happen and I try to adjust. I've enjoyed the extra time in the evening to do daylight things. My wife isn't crazy about it. I will say that I never have a clue what time it is anymore. I haven't worn a watch in 15 years and its seems its always later than I realize. I don't know about your computer but on mine anytime there is activity on a thread it tells me this. So it came across the radar screen..."

Thanks for your reply, word cop. I try to get a sense for the person behind the words and I was pleasantly surprised at the friendly civility of your follow-up. It can be pretty easy to lose track that there are real people with feelings behind every posting here.

I try to make the best of eastern daylight too. Life goes on.

I admit that having the sun still up until 7:45 pm in Columbus the second Sunday of March seemed pretty magical, especially since sunsets this late typically (at the middle of the time zone) do not occur at our latitude until late-April through late-August.

My wife isn't crazy about eastern daylight time either. She likes taking a walk in the early morning light, before the pace of the day picks up too much.

At our latitude, the typical sunrise time varies from about 5:30 to 7:30 am during the 8 months of DST and from about 6:15 to 7:20 during the other four months. The sun is up by 7:00 am from about Mar 22 through Dec 1 and then from Feb 8 until DST starts. This amounts to only about 25 percent of the year with the sun up later than 7:00 am.

In Columbus, on eastern time, the sunrise time varies from about 6:15 to 8:15 during DST and from about 7:00 to 8:05 during non-DST. The sun is up by 7:00 here only from about April 20 through August 19, coming up after 7:00 am the other 2/3 of the year.

If we were on central time, we would still have the 8 months from March to November with 45 minutes of sunlight shifted from morning to evening like we had before with year-round EST (aka CDT), but we would have about 15 minutes shifted from evening to morning during the non-DST period.

The only periods when we would have to endure sunrises later than 7:00 am would be about 2 weeks from Oct 23 through the end of DST and then another 3 or so weeks from Dec 24 through Jan 17 -- only about 10 percent of the year with sunrises later than 7:00, compared to 25 percent typical for our latitude and 67 percent with eastern time.

I enjoy converting clock time to approximate sun time in my head by subtracting 2 hours and then adding 15 minutes. Sometimes I try to go the other way and estimate the sun time from its position in the sky and then check myself by adding on the 1 hour 45 minutes to get clock time.

I found a neat freeware program for my PDA called Sidereal. I have it configured to simultaneously display clock time, local mean time, and local apparent time. That's also a good way to occasionally check my estimate of the solar time from the sun position. A friend of mine with a keen interest in time zones and DST actually bought a Palm TX just to run this program.

http://www.edgar-bonet.org/palm/

Yes, when I view any of the IndyStar forums, it also shows me when any of the threads in which I have made a comment has had a follow-up posting.

Regards, Bill
Mon, 23 Jul 2007, 6:24 pm EDT
Reply to posting 176

Indianapolis, IN

#177 Jul 24, 2007
I know astronomy fairly well and know what you are stating; solar noon is 1:45 PM on EDT on average in Indianapolis, and 12:45 PM EST in INDY. The time is off 1 hour 45 minutes during DST and off 45 minutes under standard time in INDY on Eastern Time. If we were in the right spot in the Eastern Time Zone, 75-degree west longitude in the Eastern Time Zone, solar noon would be at noon on EST and 1:00 PM EDT. INDY is 86 degrees longitude so we should be in the Central Time Zone. Over the decades, the federal government has been sneaking the time zone boundaries for all time zones further west to give states more light in the afternoon than in the morning.

I have adjusted to Eastern with DST, do more daylight activities and my wife is fine with it now. My wife opposed DST all together in INDY before INDY went to DST wanting to stay on EST all year, but now she likes Eastern with DST and does not want it repealed, nor does she want Central. I wanted Central with DST before DST was voted on in the Indiana Legislature, but now that we are on Eastern with DST, I do not want it changed. I would feel like we would be getting cheated out of the extra sunlight in the spring, summer, and fall now that I am used to the late sunsets. The early sunsets in the winter, 4:20 PM (the earliest sunset INDY would have on Central) would seem depressing especially on cloudy days, which it is about 80-85% of the time in Indiana in the wintertime. I also do not want to return to the old Indiana time where we had three weird time zones, CDT, EST, & EDT all in one state when DST was in effect. Therefore, even though our time is off 1:45 during DST, I am ok with it now. All I would like to see congress roll DST back to early April to later October of each year, the 1986 DST schedule. Congress does have the option to do this if the new 8-month DST program does not work on saving energy when the 2005 energy bill was passed after a study on energy consumption is made at the end of 2007 to see if 8 month DST saves energy. March is too early to spring ahead, but early April is fine.

Michigan, above us, and the Eastern Time Zone portion of Kentucky below us are in the same boat we are on sunrises and sunsets. Other states in other time zones on the western side of their time zones experience the same thing we do, late sunrises and late sunsets with solar noon happening between 35 to 50 minutes too late on standard time and solar noon happening 1:35 to 1:50 too late on DST.

The USDOT, ignoring astronomy drew these lines and do so for economic reasons. Many know from an astronomical standpoint that they are throwing off the natural time of daylight with their time zone boundaries, but they do not care, just economics.

I would like to state that none of my family members are morning people and most people on average of somewhat in between morning people and night owls. You mentioned you wife is a morning person and walks at 6 AM. I have seen many morning people shift their exercises who work to the evening when there is more light on EDT.

Since: Jan 07

Columbus, Indiana

#178 Jul 25, 2007
Thank you for your reply to my posting.

While we have a different bias toward the time zone, your position is one of the best-informed, eyes wide open, well thought out cases for staying on eastern daylight time that I have seen.

If I could summarize our two positions, I would say that people like you, more of the night owls so to speak, recognize that we pay for having sunsets 45 minutes later than typical for our latitude by having sunrises 45 minutes later too, but you feel that it is worth it.

Whereas the people like me (an early bird wannabe) also recognize this, but feel that the late sunrises are too high a price to pay for the idyllic late sunsets, especially in the early and late months of DST.

Where we might also differ is in whether the post-9-pm Indiana sunsets of late-May to late-July are just later than we prefer, regardless of the impact on the sunrise time. Of course the typical latest sunsets for our latitude are about 8:30 in the middle of a time zone, plus-or-minus 30 minutes or so depending on how far one is from the central meridian.

I understand that eastern advocates feel discouraged by the thought of 4:20 pm sunsets of early December, but I assure you that many central advocates feel similarly about the post-8-am sunrises of mid-December to late-January, not to mention the same in late-October to early-November and a few days in early March most years too.

I agree with you that it would be best not to return to the old system of effectively three time zones in the same state. And we both would like to see Congress reduce the DST period from 8 months. 6 or 7 would be fine with me and I would even be open to a move to eliminate the time changing altogether, although if that happened the old system of 45 minutes of DST year-round by being on EST would look more attractive again.

Best regards, Bill Starr
Wed, 25 Jul 2007, 6:38 am EDT
Hoosiers Love Everyone

North Haven, CT

#179 Jul 26, 2007
bill_starr wrote:
Thank you for your reply to my posting.
While we have a different bias toward the time zone, your position is one of the best-informed, eyes wide open, well thought out cases for staying on eastern daylight time that I have seen.
If I could summarize our two positions, I would say that people like you, more of the night owls so to speak, recognize that we pay for having sunsets 45 minutes later than typical for our latitude by having sunrises 45 minutes later too, but you feel that it is worth it.
Whereas the people like me (an early bird wannabe) also recognize this, but feel that the late sunrises are too high a price to pay for the idyllic late sunsets, especially in the early and late months of DST.
Where we might also differ is in whether the post-9-pm Indiana sunsets of late-May to late-July are just later than we prefer, regardless of the impact on the sunrise time. Of course the typical latest sunsets for our latitude are about 8:30 in the middle of a time zone, plus-or-minus 30 minutes or so depending on how far one is from the central meridian.
I understand that eastern advocates feel discouraged by the thought of 4:20 pm sunsets of early December, but I assure you that many central advocates feel similarly about the post-8-am sunrises of mid-December to late-January, not to mention the same in late-October to early-November and a few days in early March most years too.
I agree with you that it would be best not to return to the old system of effectively three time zones in the same state. And we both would like to see Congress reduce the DST period from 8 months. 6 or 7 would be fine with me and I would even be open to a move to eliminate the time changing altogether, although if that happened the old system of 45 minutes of DST year-round by being on EST would look more attractive again.
Best regards, Bill Starr
Wed, 25 Jul 2007, 6:38 am EDT
I think your fundamental mistake is somehow suggesting that leisure time (which is greatly enhanced by extra daylight) somehow means the hours BEFORE work, and not after. You are also failing to take into consideration just how nastily Hoosiers will react when they realize that being on Central Time would drastically change broadcasting schedules, vis a vis the prime time block would change to 7-10 instead of the 8-11 block. You might think its silly to point this out, but Hoosiers have freaked out over much less. Imagine if their television programs are on all new times.
Driver 1

New Albany, IN

#180 Jul 26, 2007
Hoosiers Love Everyone wrote:
<quoted text>
I think your fundamental mistake is somehow suggesting that leisure time (which is greatly enhanced by extra daylight) somehow means the hours BEFORE work, and not after. You are also failing to take into consideration just how nastily Hoosiers will react when they realize that being on Central Time would drastically change broadcasting schedules, vis a vis the prime time block would change to 7-10 instead of the 8-11 block. You might think its silly to point this out, but Hoosiers have freaked out over much less. Imagine if their television programs are on all new times.
Eastern Indianaians would love that!
david may

Vincennes, IN

#181 Aug 7, 2007
i faver eastren time in knox county ilike to be on the same as terra haute and indianapolis
betty dillon

AOL

#182 Aug 7, 2007
we would like for our county to be on
eastern time
i't very confusing, we go to church in orange co. & we live in martin co,
thank you
carl & betty dillon
betty dillon

AOL

#183 Aug 7, 2007
i like central time it seems our days are longer,some people says this is gods time which i call slow time. but it is very inconveient. for people working in other counties
so i vote to change thanks for
letting me give my opinion.
The Gay Eastside

Riverview, FL

#184 Aug 25, 2007
EastSide wrote:
Stupid in-breeding Hoosiers can't even agree what time it is.
YOUR SO GAY!!!!!!!!!
The Gay Jason

Riverview, FL

#185 Aug 25, 2007
Jason wrote:
I thought all those hillbillies down there wanted Central so bad? They had all those meetings to decide which time zone they wanted and defied the rest of the state and now they want to rejoin the rest of us?
Yokels.
OMG! Your so gay!!!!!!!!
Your gay American

Riverview, FL

#186 Aug 25, 2007
American wrote:
<quoted text>
Indiana is the westernmost point in the Eastern Time Zone, significantly so.
Just get over it, people. DST is a bad idea that needs to be repealed. Grow up.
I'm sorry that you were so dumb that you couldn't tell what time it was in Chicago or New York until Mitch made it simple enough for your stupid brains.
No wonder this state is so backwards.
Then get the h3ll out of it!!!!!!!
Mark Smith

United States

#187 Oct 4, 2007
Actually, the original 1918 time zone boundary DID run between Ohio and Pennsylvania. Ohio was on Central. For several Ohio was divided in half roughly through Mansfield and Columbus; eastern was in Eastern time, western was central time. Even into the 1930s some western Ohio cities, notably Cincinatti, still observed Central time.
The federal government made the rather odd decision to extend Eastern time over most of Indiana in 1968, which is probably why most of the state is so resistant to Daylight Time. Even where I live in Ohio Daylight time makes very little sense in March-April and October. It makes even less sense in Indiana / Eastern.
I for one would prefer to see Ohio on Eastern Standard all year (GMT -5) or a mix of Central w/ daylight (-6 /-5). Putting Ohio (and Indiana) in the same time zone as Maine and Nova Scotia for 7 months of the year seems absurd to this Buckeye.
Student (#126 Tuesday Jul 17), "Oh, and if you look at a map, you'll realize that the line between Eastern and Central should be the Ohio-Pennsylvania border. So, not only should Indiana be on Central, but so should Michigan and Ohio."
Fortunately, Bryan corrected this error (#153). The natural boundary of 82.5 degrees longitude runs through the middle of Ohio and very near the eastern borders of Michigan, Kentucky, and Tennessee.
I can see why Ohio would have wanted the natural boundary shifted to its western border, so the entire state would be on the same time zone. I can see why Michigan and Kentucky might have shifted the boundary westward in their states as well, to line up with Ohio's western border. South of Kentucky, it appears that the boundary pretty much aligns with Ohio's western border all the way to the gulf.
Bill Starr
Mon, 23 Jul 2007, 8:00 am EDT

Tell me when this thread is updated:

Subscribe Now Add to my Tracker
First Prev
of 9
Next Last

Add your comments below

Characters left: 4000

Please note by submitting this form you acknowledge that you have read the Terms of Service and the comment you are posting is in compliance with such terms. Be polite. Inappropriate posts may be removed by the moderator. Send us your feedback.

Dubois Discussions

Title Updated Last By Comments
Bachelor party stripper needed May 31 fun-guy 1
Anita bolin. May 28 sick of your lies 1
News These Gay Irishmen Are Voting No on Marriage Eq... May 21 Fire Wall 19
Andrew Cronin white trash or? May 13 brando 1
dead beat dads in jasper May 13 brando 1
News Time-zone letters may be forged (Aug '07) Apr '15 Natashxx 113
Jimmy and angel (Sep '14) Sep '14 wow 1
More from around the web

Dubois People Search

Addresses and phone numbers for FREE

Personal Finance

Mortgages [ See current mortgage rates ]