Why many faithful are leaving the Catholic Church

Jul 18, 2010 Full story: Detroit Free Press 834

In response to your 'News and Views' item last Sunday : I found it interesting that only one paragraph was partially devoted to the ongoing scandal of priest abuse cases.

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Pax et Bonum

Atwater, OH

#82 Oct 11, 2011
OldJG wrote:
OldJG wrote:
<quoted text>
Do catholics bow to the pope? Do catholics kiss the feet of the pope?
The definition of worship.....The reverent love and devotion accorded a deity, an idol, or a sacred object.
The ceremonies, prayers, or other religious forms by which this love is expressed. Ardent devotion; adoration.
Each of the above definitions of woship apply to catholics and their pope god.
<quoted text>
What the British do has nothing to do with deity as does a catholic bowing to and kissing the feet and ring of their "god", the pope, here on Earth. You catholics still call him "the vicar of Christ", correct? Tell us what that expression actually means to a good little catholic.
I am sorry the example of the honor shown the queen went over your head in regards to how some Catholics show honor to the pope. As a "Catholic" (which by the way Catholic is a proper noun and should be capitalized) I realize that the pope is not a deity. As Vicar of Christ (another proper noun by the way) the pope is the representative of Christ for the Catholic Church. Notice the words "representative of" is used and not the embodiment of. There is a big difference. Since Christ could not stay physically on this Earth He chose to leave a representative in His place to help guide the Church with the power of the Holy Spirit. This is what Catholics believe. You do not obviously but please do not confuse the pope with God there is a big difference. As a Catholic you only make yourself and your beliefs seem very small by continuing to post in this way. Why not post what you believe in a way that could be enlightening.
OldJG

Rockford, IL

#83 Oct 11, 2011
OldJG wrote:
<quoted text>
Do catholics bow to the pope? Do catholics kiss the feet of the pope?
The definition of worship.....The reverent love and devotion accorded a deity, an idol, or a sacred object.
The ceremonies, prayers, or other religious forms by which this love is expressed. Ardent devotion; adoration.
Each of the above definitions of woship apply to catholics and their pope god.
<quoted text>
What the British do has nothing to do with deity as does a catholic bowing to and kissing the feet and ring of their "god", the pope, here on Earth. You catholics still call him "the vicar of Christ", correct? Tell us what that expression actually means to a good little catholic.
Pax et Bonum wrote:
<quoted text>
I am sorry the example of the honor shown the queen went over your head in regards to how some Catholics show honor to the pope. As a "Catholic" (which by the way Catholic is a proper noun and should be capitalized) I realize that the pope is not a deity. As Vicar of Christ (another proper noun by the way) the pope is the representative of Christ for the Catholic Church. Notice the words "representative of" is used and not the embodiment of. There is a big difference. Since Christ could not stay physically on this Earth He chose to leave a representative in His place to help guide the Church with the power of the Holy Spirit. This is what Catholics believe. You do not obviously but please do not confuse the pope with God there is a big difference. As a Catholic you only make yourself and your beliefs seem very small by continuing to post in this way. Why not post what you believe in a way that could be enlightening.
Your quote, "Notice the words "representative of" is used and not the embodiment of. There is a big difference. Since Christ could not stay physically on this Earth He chose to leave a representative in His place to help guide the Church with the power of the Holy Spirit." End quote.

Provide Scripture which tells us Jesus left the pope in His place as His representative. No, no. This is a lie from hell. Check this Scripture out......

John 14:16-17, 16 "And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— 17 "the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you."

Luke 11:13, ""If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!"

“jezis kryst licks the children”

Since: Sep 10

nailing kryst to the kross

#84 Oct 11, 2011
Jezis was nothing more than a piss poor carpenter who was killed by his angry customers.

“be free indeed”

Since: Jul 09

massachusetts

#85 Oct 12, 2011
true liberty wrote:
<quoted text>
Actually the doctrines here mentioned are for the most part AGAINST Bible teaching. So you're saying its OK to have teachings that contradict the statements of Scripture?
Yes I know you feel tradition supplements the Bible - Ok, if its so, why follow them if they are not in line with plain statements of the Bible?
Pax et Bonum, still curious as to your answer to this conundrum.

“be free indeed”

Since: Jul 09

massachusetts

#86 Oct 12, 2011
Pax et Bonum wrote:
<quoted text>
Which is why as a Catholic I understand and stand by the teaching that it is Scripture, Magesterium and Tradition that the Church uses to confirm Her teachings. I am under the understanding that faith is a gift of God and not the gift of any book to include the Bible. There are those who know the Bible well but still do not believe what is in it.
Maybe you should have informed those poor Samaritans that believed the gospel about Jesus and had saving faith in John 4:39-42 that they needed to consult the Magesterium and traditions of Jesus and John before embracing the good news:

John 4:39-42
Many of the Samaritans of that town began to believe in him because of the word of the woman* who testified,“He told me everything I have done.” When the Samaritans came to him, they invited him to stay with them; and he stayed there two days. Many more began to believe in him because of his word, and they said to the woman,“We no longer believe because of your word; for we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this is truly the savior of the world.”(new american bible)

Yes I know that the women wasn't waving a copy of the New Testament but she was proclaiming the truth that Jesus is the savior and that message can only come from the Bible. To clarify tradition or magestarium cannot give saving faith, only believing in the Bible "the sword of the Spirit" as Paul calls it, gives saving faith. The message of the Bible about Jesus is the same message these people heard from the Samaritan woman.
In stark contrast, much of the tradition that Catholics believe in and that is in the extensive list oldJG gave takes away from the salvation message of Jesus.

Purgatory takes away the complete cleansing of sin from the blood of Jesus. Many of the teachings of Mary take away from the authority of the Saviour. Calling the Pope the Vicar of Christ on earth takes away the office only the Holy Spirit deserves to hold. Some of the practices come from outright Babylonian pagan influence. With this, there is no way following traditions like these - that I again emphasize contradict Holy Scripture - can give saving faith. Only believing the message of the Bible concerning Christ does!
Pax et Bonum

Atwater, OH

#87 Oct 12, 2011
OldJG wrote:
OldJG wrote:
<quoted text>
Do catholics bow to the pope? Do catholics kiss the feet of the pope?
The definition of worship.....The reverent love and devotion accorded a deity, an idol, or a sacred object.
The ceremonies, prayers, or other religious forms by which this love is expressed. Ardent devotion; adoration.
Each of the above definitions of woship apply to catholics and their pope god.
<quoted text>
What the British do has nothing to do with deity as does a catholic bowing to and kissing the feet and ring of their "god", the pope, here on Earth. You catholics still call him "the vicar of Christ", correct? Tell us what that expression actually means to a good little catholic.
<quoted text>
Your quote, "Notice the words "representative of" is used and not the embodiment of. There is a big difference. Since Christ could not stay physically on this Earth He chose to leave a representative in His place to help guide the Church with the power of the Holy Spirit." End quote.
Provide Scripture which tells us Jesus left the pope in His place as His representative. No, no. This is a lie from hell. Check this Scripture out......
John 14:16-17, 16 "And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— 17 "the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you."
Luke 11:13, ""If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!"
I realize you are of the sola scriptura persuasion. No matter what I give you as true Catholic belief you will counter with either "It's not in the Bible." or "It's not what Jesus meant."
Read Matthew 16- 19. This is the scripture the Catholic Church uses in Her teaching about Christ leaving a human representative to lead His Church. "Lie from hell?" Give a scripture quote tat states this is true. In fact is there a quote in the Bible that explicitly and literally states that only the Bible alone is to be used for belief. This quote should of course include the word "Bible" in it.
Pax et Bonum

Atwater, OH

#88 Oct 12, 2011
true liberty wrote:
<quoted text>
Pax et Bonum, still curious as to your answer to this conundrum.
This is not a conundrum. The Catholic way of belief is set on Scripture, Magisterium (or teaching body of the Church) and Tradition. Catholic teaching is set on a three legged stool that cannot stand without the other two legs. The sola scriptura way of looking at belief is more like a one legged stool. Dosen't stand so well since the one leg wiggles this way and that as it is alone. This has caused the continued splintering of Christianity that continues today. Jesus prayed that we would be one as He and His Father are one. I ask you what I asked your buddy OldJG. Give a scripture that states that only the Bible is to be used for teaching. Do include the word "Bible" in the verse you use.

“be free indeed”

Since: Jul 09

massachusetts

#89 Oct 12, 2011
Pax et Bonum wrote:
<quoted text>
This is not a conundrum. The Catholic way of belief is set on Scripture, Magisterium (or teaching body of the Church) and Tradition. Catholic teaching is set on a three legged stool that cannot stand without the other two legs. The sola scriptura way of looking at belief is more like a one legged stool. Dosen't stand so well since the one leg wiggles this way and that as it is alone. This has caused the continued splintering of Christianity that continues today. Jesus prayed that we would be one as He and His Father are one. I ask you what I asked your buddy OldJG. Give a scripture that states that only the Bible is to be used for teaching. Do include the word "Bible" in the verse you use.
In the Bible, the Bible is called "scripture" or "the Word of God" generally, as I'm sure you already know. Therefore in these verses below from the New American Catholic Bible, Scripture is the same as the Bible:

II Timothy 3:15-17
and that from infancy you have known (the) sacred scriptures, which are capable of giving you wisdom for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
so that one who belongs to God may be competent, equipped for every good work.

Scripture equips us for every good work, not tradition some, magisterium some and the Bible some (in your 3-legged stool illustration.
Pax et Bonum

Atwater, OH

#90 Oct 13, 2011
true liberty wrote:
<quoted text>
In the Bible, the Bible is called "scripture" or "the Word of God" generally, as I'm sure you already know. Therefore in these verses below from the New American Catholic Bible, Scripture is the same as the Bible:
II Timothy 3:15-17
and that from infancy you have known (the) sacred scriptures, which are capable of giving you wisdom for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
so that one who belongs to God may be competent, equipped for every good work.
Scripture equips us for every good work, not tradition some, magisterium some and the Bible some (in your 3-legged stool illustration.
A wonderful quote from scripture. I am still waiting for the scripture though that explicitly states that scripture is the only source for teachings. I still stand with the three legged stool in that I see no reason from scripture not to. There would be no scripture if the Catholic Church hadn't put the canon of works together to form it. All the reformers did was pick and choose what they wanted to keep from what the Catholic Church had formed.
MICHAEL

Hamilton, Canada

#92 Oct 13, 2011
_Seeking Truth wrote:
Jezis was nothing more than a piss poor carpenter who was killed by his angry customers.
He wasn't a carpenter, Joseph his father was. Jesus just hung out like any young street people do in any city in america.

NT tells us that Jesus performed many miracles making thousands happy. A short time later he supposedly rode into Jerusulem on two donkeys and everyone loved him. A short time later the same people are screaming for his crucifixtion and death to Jesus! Does that make sense to you?

How would christianity have ever started if by some chance the crowd screamed Barabas instead of Jesus? Or if Jesus was out of town that day. Its all christian drama, as no one else from that era, or from that region ever recorded knowing Jesus as a miracle worker.........Something is wrong!!
The Oracle

UK

#93 Oct 23, 2011
MICHAEL wrote:
<quoted text>
He wasn't a carpenter, Joseph his father was. Jesus just hung out like any young street people do in any city in america.
NT tells us that Jesus performed many miracles making thousands happy. A short time later he supposedly rode into Jerusulem on two donkeys and everyone loved him. A short time later the same people are screaming for his crucifixtion and death to Jesus! Does that make sense to you?
How would christianity have ever started if by some chance the crowd screamed Barabas instead of Jesus? Or if Jesus was out of town that day. Its all christian drama, as no one else from that era, or from that region ever recorded knowing Jesus as a miracle worker.........Something is wrong!!

Are you suggesting that Jesus was simply a street magician from a blue collar background who only made the Calvary headlines by chance choice?

“DHS steals children for Money”

Since: Aug 08

Oklahoma City, OK

#94 Jan 6, 2012
**********THOUGHT FOR THE DAY**********
When a person who is honestly mistaken is confronted with the truth they must either cease to be mistaken, or cease to be honest. Deep down inside a person knows which side of the fence they are truly on. Some will spend the rest of their lives trying to convince themselves and others that what they know is true, is truly not. They can't live with the truth, and they will do their best to divert others away from the truth (Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain). They see what is real and deep down inside it makes them sick. Yet they do nothing because they are too busy, and don't want the same thing to happen to them. Instead of standing up for what is right, they really just don't care as long as it is not happening to them. So in the meantime let's just close our eyes or get rid of what keeps reminding us of what is really REAL.(unfortunately that is the way most people think). SAD BUT TRUE
Dana
January 6, 2012

“The Black Mermaid”

Since: Aug 11

Location hidden

#95 Jan 6, 2012
Pax et Bonum wrote:
<quoted text>
I am sorry the example of the honor shown the queen went over your head in regards to how some Catholics show honor to the pope. As a "Catholic" (which by the way Catholic is a proper noun and should be capitalized) I realize that the pope is not a deity. As Vicar of Christ (another proper noun by the way) the pope is the representative of Christ for the Catholic Church. Notice the words "representative of" is used and not the embodiment of. There is a big difference. Since Christ could not stay physically on this Earth He chose to leave a representative in His place to help guide the Church with the power of the Holy Spirit. This is what Catholics believe. You do not obviously but please do not confuse the pope with God there is a big difference. As a Catholic you only make yourself and your beliefs seem very small by continuing to post in this way. Why not post what you believe in a way that could be enlightening.
Pax, I know the pope is "Vicar", but Jesus would NEVER behave as Ratzi has, nor endorse what he does.

“be free indeed”

Since: Jul 09

massachusetts

#96 Jan 7, 2012
Pax et Bonum wrote:
<quoted text>
I am sorry the example of the honor shown the queen went over your head in regards to how some Catholics show honor to the pope. As a "Catholic" (which by the way Catholic is a proper noun and should be capitalized) I realize that the pope is not a deity. As Vicar of Christ (another proper noun by the way) the pope is the representative of Christ for the Catholic Church. Notice the words "representative of" is used and not the embodiment of. There is a big difference. Since Christ could not stay physically on this Earth He chose to leave a representative in His place to help guide the Church with the power of the Holy Spirit. This is what Catholics believe. You do not obviously but please do not confuse the pope with God there is a big difference. As a Catholic you only make yourself and your beliefs seem very small by continuing to post in this way. Why not post what you believe in a way that could be enlightening.
I'm confused Pax - you say Christ could not stay physically so He chose a representative, and earlier you clarify to say this representative is not diety. Yet why Pax do you feel or the RC church feels that the Holy Spirit who IS diety needs help to officially represent Him. The Holy Spirit IS the vicar of Christ and the One that shows Christ to us and does not need any help or assistance from man. The Holy Spirit never behaves badly and He infallibly gives us the truth about Christ. Also, the Holy Spirit gives EVERY believer the power to be ambassadors to others (II Corinthians 5:20)-- not just one man named the Pope.

It would seem that the RC position is that the Holy Spirit needs help. We don't serve a handicapped God. We don't celebrate a salvation that's not complete either, by the way. Jesus didn't provide a half-way salvation on the cross to pay for sins.(The last 2 sentences are extra, free with the post):)

“The Black Mermaid”

Since: Aug 11

Location hidden

#97 Jan 7, 2012
Pax et Bonum wrote:
<quoted text>
This is not a conundrum. The Catholic way of belief is set on Scripture, Magisterium (or teaching body of the Church) and Tradition. Catholic teaching is set on a three legged stool that cannot stand without the other two legs. The sola scriptura way of looking at belief is more like a one legged stool. Dosen't stand so well since the one leg wiggles this way and that as it is alone. This has caused the continued splintering of Christianity that continues today. Jesus prayed that we would be one as He and His Father are one. I ask you what I asked your buddy OldJG. Give a scripture that states that only the Bible is to be used for teaching. Do include the word "Bible" in the verse you use.
Pax, in my opinion, the Magisterium has no more "truth" than the Watchtower Society. A bunch of mortal beings who claim to know God's will.
Patriotic Girl

United States

#98 Jan 8, 2012
The BIBLE says that the traditions of man is wrong and I believe people today have the opportunity to research history and education, that they see through the organized religion..The Levitical priests(which were married with family,in order to pass down the line,from Levi)were to be representatives to serve the Hebrews in the OT.Jesus came to fulfill that role..They no longer need an earthly priest when Jesus is at the right hand of his father,intervening for us.This is scriptual, not much like Catholics,Lutherans,etc..Jesus also never charged for his services like all these representantives of organized religion,such as pastors,priests,etc..

“The Black Mermaid”

Since: Aug 11

Location hidden

#99 Jan 8, 2012
Patriotic Girl wrote:
The BIBLE says that the traditions of man is wrong and I believe people today have the opportunity to research history and education, that they see through the organized religion..The Levitical priests(which were married with family,in order to pass down the line,from Levi)were to be representatives to serve the Hebrews in the OT.Jesus came to fulfill that role..They no longer need an earthly priest when Jesus is at the right hand of his father,intervening for us.This is scriptual, not much like Catholics,Lutherans,etc..Jesus also never charged for his services like all these representantives of organized religion,such as pastors,priests,etc..
You seem to know your stuff :) However, "right hand of the Father" - nah - spirits don't have hands.(Just had to kid ya.)

“DHS steals children for Money”

Since: Aug 08

Oklahoma City, OK

#100 Jan 8, 2012
Patriotic Girl wrote:
The BIBLE says that the traditions of man is wrong and I believe people today have the opportunity to research history and education, that they see through the organized religion..The Levitical priests(which were married with family,in order to pass down the line,from Levi)were to be representatives to serve the Hebrews in the OT.Jesus came to fulfill that role..They no longer need an earthly priest when Jesus is at the right hand of his father,intervening for us.This is scriptual, not much like Catholics,Lutherans,etc..Jesus also never charged for his services like all these representantives of organized religion,such as pastors,priests,etc..
I see somebody has been doing their homework.

“The Black Mermaid”

Since: Aug 11

Location hidden

#101 Jan 8, 2012
DanaL wrote:
<quoted text>I see somebody has been doing their homework.
I agree :)
Patriotic Girl

Pittsburgh, PA

#102 Jan 9, 2012
So many people do not know anything about the religions they are associated with, and I believe they would be surprised to learn just how it got started..I have had friends this has happened to,and myself..It was an eye opener for me to do the back ground work..It was the saving thing for me to do..Also, so many people relate the bad things that happen in churches to be GOD'S fault..No, we are imperfect people in an imperfect world!! He gives us a choice and does not demand!! I appreciate that..To Christians,GOD is in control,he deserves to be worshipped because he made all things..He has a plan and a purpose..

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