Judge overturns California's ban on same-sex marriage

Aug 4, 2010 | Posted by: Topix | Full story: www.cnn.com

A federal judge in California has knocked down the state's voter-approved ban on same-sex marriage, ruling Wednesday that the state's controversial Proposition 8 violates the U.S. Constitution.

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heartandmind

Moline, IL

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#184114
Mar 22, 2013
 

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Brian_G wrote:
Proposition 8 won at the polls; that proves same sex marriage is antidemocratic.
No, dear, it just showed that people can vote against the constitution - and have it recinded and declared unconstitutional by the judicial branch of the government. that's their job, by the way.

Since: Apr 11

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#184115
Mar 22, 2013
 

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akpilot wrote:
<quoted text>
I almost feel bad making fun of you Rose, I feel like I shouldn't pile on to what the rest of the world already does to you.
You don't have the 'nads to admit you made a mistake.
That's one thing that is pathetic about you.
Another is you go on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on about how little you think I matter.
And you searched through tens of thousands of posts to find a specific post I made.
Methinks the lady doth protest too much!

Since: Apr 11

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#184116
Mar 22, 2013
 

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akpilot wrote:
<quoted text>
You aren't very bright are you?
The point was that you can have restrictive laws while not having an equal right's violation under the Constitution.
In the instance of the POTUS, the example used, not every US Citizen is eligible to hold said office. In the example, a naturalized US Citizen, whom is a citizen, is not treated as an equal to the Natural Born Citizen, as such they cannot hold the office of the President.
Apply the same logic as is applied by the likes of you an Rose
Can you make a post that doesn't mention me?
akpilot wrote:
among others to the same sex marriage issue, the previous example would be a violation of the equal rights provisions of the 14th Amendment, and as such Article II Sec 1 of the US Constitution is itself Unconstitutional.
What an interesting quandary?
Only to a simpleton like you.

Since: Apr 11

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#184117
Mar 22, 2013
 

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MsSoccerMom wrote:
<quoted text>thanks for proving you are an idiot. I noticed you left out any odds. That's kind of odd. When you factor in:
A. The requirements for a hospitable, life-sustaining world with…
B. The requirements for a hospitable, life-sustaining universe with…
C. The requirements for generating complex life from seeming nothingness (without getting into the actual complexity of the organisms involved which makes it all the worse)…
You arrive at
D. A number so vast that not only does it beggar the imagination, but any individual that isn’t moved to at least a very, very cautious atheism or a very curious agnosticism isn’t a terribly intelligent or honest person.
LOL. The irony is, we don't know what those odds are!
Could be that under "earth like" conditions the development and evolution of life is a certain as a ball falling if you drop it.

And we do know the creation myth in Genesis is just that, a myth. It's full of absurdities. So, while we don't know how life began, we do know it didn't begin *that* way.
heartandmind

Moline, IL

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#184118
Mar 22, 2013
 

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Big D wrote:
<quoted text>
I have to use epoxy to keep them on LOL
But I would hate to lose that, I really would, I want… desperately, to think better of people than what they show.
But look at history, you started with black people, it wasn’t 200 years before that one could be burned at the state for being a Protestant, or Catholic ( depending on where you were )
it goes back and back and back
But you could be right, we may have to wait for them to die off, my relatives were from the deep south, so you can imagine what I heard as a child, but the children of those same people, are supportive of equal rights for everyone, even same sex marrage.
What annoys me is the people that we are waiting to die off, are my age, that bothers me no end. It was my generation that was supposed to get past all this garbage, we failed, however when I look at my children ( now in their 30's and 40's ) and their friends, where we have failed we at least taught those values to the next generation, even if we could not live up to them ourselves.
I have kept young by keeping young people around me, and listening ( not waiting my turn to talk ) to what they are saying, and thinking about why they are saying that. Sometimes that takes some effort on my part… my opinions are pretty ingrained.
If you look at the polls,( by young I mean 35 and younger ) they have overwhelming support for same sex marriage.
It helps, I may be an old man ( well older anyway ) but I have kept an open mind.
hope does spring eternal....this thin thread of sanity that strings together generations and different regions of our country is stronger as the years go by, judging by the polling trends of the past few years. like you, i see the dividing line seems to be my generation - i was born in the early 60s and have watched a lot of tumultuous changes in america as she stretched for fairness & equality for all. i grew up in north east texas (bubbaville central, as i affectionately call it) and the grumblings were strong and loud when the desegregation laws came about. i can't recall sitting in a classroom that was segregated. there's even growing world awareness in that home town of mine - that started when they got cable television and CNN in the 80s in the community. LOL.
from what i understand from friends that still live in my old home town, things have changed even there (population at below 15k and is a farming community)...they're considerably more open minded and hearted than they were back in the 70s while i was attending high school. from what i gather, there's a number of younger adults and teens that are pretty "avant garde" living there....LOL. I'm sure the old guard is quite agog and atwitter with gossip..but for the most part they all kind of blend in and are accepted. it's far easier for a young person to be themselves now than it was when i was a teen. there's even a gay segment of the population there that's not harrassed by the masses - they live peacably with their neighbors. that's what amazes me and makes me so very proud of my home town. that's proof positive that change can occur, in as little as 30 yrs. don't get me wrong - there's no gay pride parades happening there, but at least my gay brothers and lesbian sisters don't have to fear being beaten or shot for being the way they are, unlike the years of my teen yrs.
hey, maybe i'm showing signs of life in my rose colored glasses. LOL

Since: Apr 11

Los Angeles, CA

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#184119
Mar 22, 2013
 

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RiccardoFire wrote:
<quoted text>The fact that nature partakes in homosexuality is irrevelent to humans partaking in homosexuality. They do not have the same ability to reason as humans do. Many species eat their young. Does that mean it's natural to eat our kids?
YOU claimed homosexuality isn't natural.
Big D

Modesto, CA

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#184120
Mar 22, 2013
 

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heartandmind wrote:
<quoted text>
No, dear, it just showed that people can vote against the constitution - and have it recinded and declared unconstitutional by the judicial branch of the government. that's their job, by the way.
Well said, what is shows is that we are not a straight democracy ( rule of the mob ) as it was in old Athens.

We are also a republic.

Mob rule has been tried in history, and it was terrible, politics was EVERYTHING, nothing had to be true, it only had to sound true, because if you could convince the masses of uneducated people, your idea became law. A jury might have 1000 people, and by simple vote, anyone in the society could be exiled, and was on a regular basis.

Straight Republic was also tried ( old Rome ) and that too had its terrible downside, corruption overshadowed everything.

We are not perfect as a democratic republic, but it is better than either of those two alone.

( it always makes me laugh that people that claim to be a republican, have no clue what it means to be a republic, and scream “democracy” but only when it suits them )

“Vita e' Bella.”

Since: May 12

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More than any other country,” writes Harvard law professor Mary Ann Glendon,“the United States has accepted the idea of no-fault divorce. From a Deseret News Editorial of July, 2012.

“More than any other country,” writes Harvard law professor Mary Ann Glendon,“the United States has accepted the idea of no-fault, no-responsibility divorce.”

“The United States appears unique among Western countries,” says Glendon,“in its relative carelessness about assuring either public or private responsibility for the economic casualties of divorce.”

Glendon’s acclaimed 1987 book,“Abortion and Divorce in Western Law,” explored how permissive standards for divorce undermined the ideal of marriage as a durable, commitment-laden, life-long institution and how discretionary and inconsistently enforced child support laws damaged children.

Twenty-five years later, the casualties of America’s permissive divorce laws continue to mount. In today’s Deseret News, Sara Israelsen-Hartley explores the high social costs associated with divorce and documents bold efforts underway to make divorce less permissive.

Undoubtedly, family dissolution is emotionally costly to the individuals involved. But University of Minnesota professor Bill Doherty notes,“There’s hardly any social problem that the government is involved in and spending a lot of money on that isn’t heavily affected by marriages not forming and marriages breaking up.”

Rethinking divorce law: recognizing personal, social costs associated with easy divorce

www.deseretnews.com/article/765589834/Rethink...

Since: Apr 11

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#184122
Mar 22, 2013
 

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RiccardoFire wrote:
<quoted text>“Scientists are slowly waking up to an inconvenient truth - the universe looks suspiciously like a fix. The issue concerns the very laws of nature themselves. For 40 years, physicists and cosmologists have been quietly collecting examples of all too convenient "coincidences" and special features in the underlying laws of the universe that seem to be necessary in order for life, and hence conscious beings, to exist. Change any one of them and the consequences would be lethal. Fred Hoyle, the distinguished cosmologist, once said it was as if "a super-intellect has monkeyed with physics".
To see the problem, imagine playing God with the cosmos. Before you is a designer machine that lets you tinker with the basics of physics. Twiddle this knob and you make all electrons a bit lighter, twiddle that one and you make gravity a bit stronger, and so on. It happens that you need to set thirtysomething knobs to fully describe the world about us. The crucial point is that some of those metaphorical knobs must be tuned very precisely, or the universe would be sterile.
Example: neutrons are just a tad heavier than protons. If it were the other way around, atoms couldn't exist, because all the protons in the universe would have decayed into neutrons shortly after the big bang. No protons, then no atomic nucleuses and no atoms. No atoms, no chemistry, no life. Like Baby Bear's porridge in the story of Goldilocks, the universe seems to be just right for life.”
If things had worked out that way, we wouldn't be here to talk about it.
If a different sperm had fertilized each of the eggs that became you and I, we would not be here to post these messages. If our parents had had sex a moment earlier or later...you get the idea. And there is no reason to see divine intervention there.

Since: Apr 11

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#184123
Mar 22, 2013
 

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Ooops, if things had not worked out that way, we wouldn't be here to talk about it.
Big D

Modesto, CA

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#184124
Mar 22, 2013
 

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heartandmind wrote:
<quoted text>
hope does spring eternal....this thin thread of sanity that strings together generations and different regions of our country is stronger as the years go by, judging by the polling trends of the past few years. like you, i see the dividing line seems to be my generation - i was born in the early 60s and have watched a lot of tumultuous changes in america as she stretched for fairness & equality for all. i grew up in north east texas (bubbaville central, as i affectionately call it) and the grumblings were strong and loud when the desegregation laws came about. i can't recall sitting in a classroom that was segregated. there's even growing world awareness in that home town of mine - that started when they got cable television and CNN in the 80s in the community. LOL.
from what i understand from friends that still live in my old home town, things have changed even there (population at below 15k and is a farming community)...they're considerably more open minded and hearted than they were back in the 70s while i was attending high school. from what i gather, there's a number of younger adults and teens that are pretty "avant garde" living there....LOL. I'm sure the old guard is quite agog and atwitter with gossip..but for the most part they all kind of blend in and are accepted. it's far easier for a young person to be themselves now than it was when i was a teen. there's even a gay segment of the population there that's not harrassed by the masses - they live peacably with their neighbors. that's what amazes me and makes me so very proud of my home town. that's proof positive that change can occur, in as little as 30 yrs. don't get me wrong - there's no gay pride parades happening there, but at least my gay brothers and lesbian sisters don't have to fear being beaten or shot for being the way they are, unlike the years of my teen yrs.
hey, maybe i'm showing signs of life in my rose colored glasses. LOL
Yes, I do know what you are saying.

It depends so much on who you are surrounded by ( that should not be true, but it is )

My father in law passed away a few years ago, he was a wonderful man, kind, generous, a joy to be around. His one fault was his bias against gay people.

For years my wife and I just let it slide, until we came to the conclusion that silence is consent, and by letting his comments go we were silently consenting to what he was saying.

So we challenged him, in the end he said we would just have to agree to disagree, and it did not harm our relationship with him in any way.( that to his credit, as I said, he really was a wonderful man, with a fault, we all have those )

He passed away a couple of years ago, and we miss him.

His wife ( my mother-in-law ) who was silent on the subject all this time, approached us to let us know that we were right and she didn’t really see it until she was away from the constant barrage all the time.

We didn’t know whether to laugh or cry, we did a little of both. I do miss that man, but it was not until he was gone, that my elderly mother in law could finally say what she felt without causing havoc.

She is now having difficulty with her church who is staunch on the subject, so much so that she is starting to question their stance on other issues.

Trust me, they will come around, they have no choice, it is either that or continue to lose ground.

Since: Apr 11

Los Angeles, CA

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#184125
Mar 22, 2013
 

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Brian_G wrote:
Proposition 8 won at the polls; that proves same sex marriage is antidemocratic.
You might want to update your copy/paste posts.
Several states have voted for gay marriage.
heartandmind

Moline, IL

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#184126
Mar 22, 2013
 

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Big D wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes, I do know what you are saying.
It depends so much on who you are surrounded by ( that should not be true, but it is )
My father in law passed away a few years ago, he was a wonderful man, kind, generous, a joy to be around. His one fault was his bias against gay people.
For years my wife and I just let it slide, until we came to the conclusion that silence is consent, and by letting his comments go we were silently consenting to what he was saying.
So we challenged him, in the end he said we would just have to agree to disagree, and it did not harm our relationship with him in any way.( that to his credit, as I said, he really was a wonderful man, with a fault, we all have those )
He passed away a couple of years ago, and we miss him.
His wife ( my mother-in-law ) who was silent on the subject all this time, approached us to let us know that we were right and she didn’t really see it until she was away from the constant barrage all the time.
We didn’t know whether to laugh or cry, we did a little of both. I do miss that man, but it was not until he was gone, that my elderly mother in law could finally say what she felt without causing havoc.
She is now having difficulty with her church who is staunch on the subject, so much so that she is starting to question their stance on other issues.
Trust me, they will come around, they have no choice, it is either that or continue to lose ground.
what a great story of your family! that's pretty awesome indeed.

i have a couple nephews that are in their 30s that are pretty staunchly anti-homosexual rights, based entirely upon what their church has taught them. yet, they cannot deny what they see in my partner and i - 23 yrs together, faithful to one another, loyal to one another, raising 3 kids that are pretty terrific (sorry, just a little proud of them) and serving our church and community in a similar fashion as they do in their churches and towns. i think in knowing us, in being exposed to us, they're getting a better understanding of the whole issues. we even went to church with one of them a few times in support of them a few yrs back when they had lost a son in a tragic accident...and their pastor even had a light turn on in their head and heart in dealing with us. my nephew said that he learned a good bit from us though that tragedy - we supported them in ways that their siblings and church family couldn't and didn't. i think that forged at least a softer approach in his heart with regards to gay rights.

that's the only way to get through to some people - let them see how we live. a baptist preacher friend told me a few months ago that all things were possible when reasonable people sat down and talked as humans, not as adversaries. we have to learn to reach for the commonalities between us instead of what divides us.

and that's something the politcal parties and the politicians in this country fail to see, fail to act upon. and it's killing us as a nation.
Big D

Modesto, CA

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Mar 22, 2013
 

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Pietro Armando wrote:
More than any other country,” writes Harvard law professor Mary Ann Glendon,“the United States has accepted the idea of no-fault divorce. From a Deseret News Editorial of July, 2012.
“More than any other country,” writes Harvard law professor Mary Ann Glendon,“the United States has accepted the idea of no-fault, no-responsibility divorce.”
“The United States appears unique among Western countries,” says Glendon,“in its relative carelessness about assuring either public or private responsibility for the economic casualties of divorce.”
Glendon’s acclaimed 1987 book,“Abortion and Divorce in Western Law,” explored how permissive standards for divorce undermined the ideal of marriage as a durable, commitment-laden, life-long institution and how discretionary and inconsistently enforced child support laws damaged children.
Twenty-five years later, the casualties of America’s permissive divorce laws continue to mount. In today’s Deseret News, Sara Israelsen-Hartley explores the high social costs associated with divorce and documents bold efforts underway to make divorce less permissive.
Undoubtedly, family dissolution is emotionally costly to the individuals involved. But University of Minnesota professor Bill Doherty notes,“There’s hardly any social problem that the government is involved in and spending a lot of money on that isn’t heavily affected by marriages not forming and marriages breaking up.”
Rethinking divorce law: recognizing personal, social costs associated with easy divorce
www.deseretnews.com/article/765589834/Rethink...
You may miss the days when divorce was more difficult, battered women ( or men ) stuck where they could not get out, molested children where they wife would actively turn her had the other way as she had no where else she could go other than to cover it up.

I don’t

Our marriages are stronger today because of how easy divorce is.

there is a saying you may have heard of. "He that doeth evil hateth the light", that applies directly here.

Today marriages are more active, couples do things together to keep their marriages alive and strong and rely less on a piece of paper to keep it so.

I prefer my wife to be my wife because she wants to be my wife, not because some piece of paper makes her so. What is it that you are so afraid of? What is it that you want to do so desperately that you know it is too easy for your wife to divorce you for?
You may not be old enough to remember, but I can tell you, the good old days weren’t all that good, and tomorrow is not as bad as it seems.( I should call Billy Joel and get permission to use that )
Gooles

San Dimas, CA

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#184128
Mar 22, 2013
 

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The Gooles have it.
Big D

Modesto, CA

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Mar 22, 2013
 

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heartandmind wrote:
<quoted text>
what a great story of your family! that's pretty awesome indeed.
i have a couple nephews that are in their 30s that are pretty staunchly anti-homosexual rights, based entirely upon what their church has taught them. yet, they cannot deny what they see in my partner and i - 23 yrs together, faithful to one another, loyal to one another, raising 3 kids that are pretty terrific (sorry, just a little proud of them) and serving our church and community in a similar fashion as they do in their churches and towns. i think in knowing us, in being exposed to us, they're getting a better understanding of the whole issues. we even went to church with one of them a few times in support of them a few yrs back when they had lost a son in a tragic accident...and their pastor even had a light turn on in their head and heart in dealing with us. my nephew said that he learned a good bit from us though that tragedy - we supported them in ways that their siblings and church family couldn't and didn't. i think that forged at least a softer approach in his heart with regards to gay rights.
that's the only way to get through to some people - let them see how we live. a baptist preacher friend told me a few months ago that all things were possible when reasonable people sat down and talked as humans, not as adversaries. we have to learn to reach for the commonalities between us instead of what divides us.
and that's something the politcal parties and the politicians in this country fail to see, fail to act upon. and it's killing us as a nation.
The hard part is the "reasonable people" part ( chuckle )

Big D

Modesto, CA

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Mar 22, 2013
 

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heartandmind wrote:
<quoted text>
and that's something the politcal parties and the politicians in this country fail to see, fail to act upon. and it's killing us as a nation.
This is so true, you know when I was young, someone from the opposing political party was looked at as a fellow patriot, someone that loves this country that just disagreed on a few issues.

Today, the other party is the enemy

( I am at fault for that too )

The truth is, we agree on 95% and could compromise on the other 5% if we could sit down without all the pressure of the current politics we live with.

My kids tell me I am too hard core on some political issues, that there is a middle ground we could all agree on … they are probably right.
Big D

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#184131
Mar 22, 2013
 

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Rose_NoHo wrote:
<quoted text>
You might want to update your copy/paste posts.
Several states have voted for gay marriage.
California would be one of them if the vote were held again today

“Vita e' Bella.”

Since: May 12

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Big D wrote:
<quoted text>
You may miss the days when divorce was more difficult, battered women ( or men ) stuck where they could not get out, molested children where they wife would actively turn her had the other way as she had no where else she could go other than to cover it up.
I don’t
Huh? How about not throwing the baby out with the bath water? There's a difference between abuse and criminal activity and simply divorcing for trivial matters. So its okay that a wife or husband can no fault divorce, but can be charged criminally in some states for adultery? How about states that allow the offended spouse to sue the "other woman", or "other man"? Do you disagree with that?
Our marriages are stronger today because of how easy divorce is.
there is a saying you may have heard of. "He that doeth evil hateth the light", that applies directly here.
Are they really? Look at the divorce rate, much higher than my parents and grandparents generation, as with the cohabitiation rate, and out of wedlock birthrates.
Today marriages are more active, couples do things together to keep their marriages alive and strong and rely less on a piece of paper to keep it so.
If its only a "piece of paper" why get married, legally, at all then?
I prefer my wife to be my wife because she wants to be my wife, not because some piece of paper makes her so.
So why did you seek out that piece of paper?
What is it that you are so afraid of? What is it that you want to do so desperately that you know it is too easy for your wife to divorce you for?
It's a fear that my children are growing up in a culture that takes it commitments lightly, that marriage has become just another "life style choice". I have been married for 20 plus years, my parents were married until the day my father passed away. Both sets of grandparents, immigrants from southern Italy, were also married until my grandfathers passed away. All save one, of my siblings are married, two, like me, 20 plus years. There's an old expression, that I think Leo Buscaliga once said, or may have borrowed from his Sicilian grand mother, in regards to marriage: "Divorce never....murder...maybe".
You may not be old enough to remember, but I can tell you, the good old days weren’t all that good, and tomorrow is not as bad as it seems.( I should call Billy Joel and get permission to use that )
I never said the good old days were always good, nor tommorrow is as bad as it seems. I say Billy Joel at Yankee Stadium in the mid '80's by the way. But there was a time when a marriage vow meant far more than it does today. We both know that.
heartandmind

Moline, IL

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Mar 22, 2013
 

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Pietro Armando wrote:
<quoted text>
Huh? How about not throwing the baby out with the bath water? There's a difference between abuse and criminal activity and simply divorcing for trivial matters. So its okay that a wife or husband can no fault divorce, but can be charged criminally in some states for adultery? How about states that allow the offended spouse to sue the "other woman", or "other man"? Do you disagree with that?
<quoted text>
Are they really? Look at the divorce rate, much higher than my parents and grandparents generation, as with the cohabitiation rate, and out of wedlock birthrates.
<quoted text>
If its only a "piece of paper" why get married, legally, at all then?
<quoted text>
So why did you seek out that piece of paper?
<quoted text>
It's a fear that my children are growing up in a culture that takes it commitments lightly, that marriage has become just another "life style choice". I have been married for 20 plus years, my parents were married until the day my father passed away. Both sets of grandparents, immigrants from southern Italy, were also married until my grandfathers passed away. All save one, of my siblings are married, two, like me, 20 plus years. There's an old expression, that I think Leo Buscaliga once said, or may have borrowed from his Sicilian grand mother, in regards to marriage: "Divorce never....murder...maybe".
<quoted text>
I never said the good old days were always good, nor tommorrow is as bad as it seems. I say Billy Joel at Yankee Stadium in the mid '80's by the way. But there was a time when a marriage vow meant far more than it does today. We both know that.
congratulations on the 20+ years of married life. you obviously learned from your parents' marriage that was a life-long committment. i learned the same from my parents. my partner & i have been together over 23 yrs and are raising 3 kisd together. if we could legally marry, then we could protect all the assets we've built together as a couple, just the same as you and your wife (or husband?)(sorry, not sure of your gender, not that it matters in this electronic world).

but consider that also, back in our grandparent's days, and most likely even in our parent's days - a divorce was a black mark on a person - they were looked down upon. society was vastly different then, even if a woman left her husband for valid reasons of affairs, abuse, alcholism or drug abuse or any number of good reasons a woman should leave a man. it just wasn't acceptable for a grown adult woman to be single or divorced. that attributed to the lower divorce rate back then.

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