5 towns tap expert help on Oak Lawn water plan

Five communities will spend more money on consulting fees to ensure Oak Lawn treats them fairly in ongoing water negotiations.

[Sean C]

You know what I believe way back in the time the the Oak Forest Administration took over Mr. Rossi suggested that Oak Forest should think about getting their own council and support services to look into the value that we are receiving from the Oak Lawn water contract, how prophetic!

Again this man was way ahead of his time and no one has listened to his advice, no one! Mr. Rossi, thank you again for putting out this vital information way before it has become an issue. It would be nice if the City Administration would listen to you. I know you research all the issues and give us the most current information, maybe if some other politicians has listened to you they would still be in office. With your background and being right on the issues it sure would be nice to have you in office to look out for the interests of the taxpayers!

Jim Rossi sure would have been a great Administrative Assistant or maybe we could get him on the City Council. I would love to see someone this matter of fact as our Mayor, sure would be a breath of fresh air, not the hot air we get now!

[JimRossi]

I'll repeat my concern again.
The City of Oak Forest should not have to pay for water infrastructure improvements to support additional development to the south and west of our city.
None of the formulas I've seen, to date, are acceptable to me.
Oak Forest doesn't need a whole lot of additional capacity.
I might agree to paying for additional redundancy, but not when it's disguised as increased capacity for development way beyond our city limits.
The same is true for replacement costs of aging infrastructure.
Old pipes may need replacing, but if the original pipe isn't retired, they're disguising increased capacity as replacement.
The potential costs to the city are so great that I've repeatedly recommended our own attorney, and engineer to protect us.
Both should be completely independent of our municipal neighbors that want us to pay more than our fair share.

Jim Rossi
[e-mail]

[X Employee]

Every point Mr Rossi made is correct. We should be looking out for ourselves. I suggest Mr Rossi put his post in the form of an e-mail to the Mayor and city council. That is the only way they will see it being as they don't read postings on the blogs.

[FORMER COUNCIL MEMBER]

WHY MR. ROSSI ISN'T BROUGHT ABOARD AS A CONSULTANT
TO THIS ADMINISTRATION IS A MYSTERY!!
HIS PAST CONTRIBUTIONS ARE LEGEND BOTH AS AN EDISON LOGISTICS ENGINEER AND AS A CITY MANAGER UNDER GORDEN!
C'MON HANK WISE-UP!

[Rollo]

FORMER COUNCIL MEMBER wrote:

WHY MR. ROSSI ISN'T BROUGHT ABOARD AS A CONSULTANT
TO THIS ADMINISTRATION IS A MYSTERY!!
HIS PAST CONTRIBUTIONS ARE LEGEND BOTH AS AN EDISON LOGISTICS ENGINEER AND AS A CITY MANAGER UNDER GORDEN!
C'MON HANK WISE-UP!

I agree with you on every point, this person has helped me find all types of information about our fair town!! I believe he could have been a great asset to Kelly, but it never happened and now I hope they are using his information to put together a strategy on how to protect the interests of Oak Forest!! Let's not leave that up to the other communities, it is best to be pro-active about this and be prepared. I would think that this currenct government would be greatly served to bring this man into this administration.

He always seems to have the best interest of the community at heart! Strategy and Rossi would be a great move!!

[Sean C]

I sure hope our government gets some representation for this issue. I think if I heard correctly there may be some conflict of interest with the city law firm.

Get Rossi to be someone that could spearhead this!

[JimRossi]

There are many conflicts of interest with both law firms and engineering firms.
My comments should not be construed that there are any evil intentions.
We just need to proceed on a path where there are completely independent evaluations provided to the City of Oak Forest.


Jim Rossi
[e-mail]

[X Employee]

Rossi is correct on all points.

[Bring Back the Old Water]

I remember a time when Mokena for instance had no watering restrictions and enough water for all of its residents for alot cheaper. This issuehas put us in the unenvious position of relying on others for our needs. He was so right.

[JimRossi]

Bring Back the Old Water wrote:

I remember a time when Mokena for instance had no watering restrictions and enough water for all of its residents for alot cheaper. This issuehas put us in the unenvious position of relying on others for our needs. He was so right.

We need to do a better job of water conservation.
Fresh water is taken from the lake, filtered, chlorinated, and further treated and tested, then transported miles from the source.
This using infrastructure that had to be paid for, needs to be constantly maintained, and ultimately replaced.
And yes, we have to rely on others to provide the service, mostly Oak Lawn, and the City of Chicago.
There are some concerns about the amount of water in all of the great lakes.
The Chicago region is now diverting 85% of the lake water that a 1967 Supreme Court decision allows.
Without conservation, that limit could be reached in about 15 years.
Those municipalities that use deep aquifers for their supply (wells) could find it cost-inefficient to pump water from them as their water level decreases.
That could include Mokena.
Then people use this "drinking quality" liquid to water lawns, wash cars, flush toilets.
Industrial sites use huge amounts for some of their processes.
It's important to realize that we have shortages and are paying higher prices now, but some are in far worse shape.
Keep on the alert for a new National Geographic magazine titled "Water: Our Thirsty World"
Back in the early 70's, my parent's home in Tinley Park had two water systems in their house,
One for drinking water, and the other for "softened" water.
Our present standard consists of two wastewater systems, one for sewage, another for storm water.
It could be some day we'll end up with two fresh water systems in our homes.
More likely is a scenario where we become smarter using recycling and improved technology to solve this problem.
This issue is very complex.
Wouldn't it be unfortunate that the towns listed in this article invest in a 40 year upgrade to the Oak Lawn water system, and any additional water runs out in 2025?

Jim Rossi
[e-mail]

[Rollo]

Mr. Rossi,

Are there any Municipal Codes about recycling of Water supplies? I know there are water rules for the summer watering months, but what if anything has our city done to incorporate water plans in their City Plans.

Some household water usage and even rain water could be stored for uses like the ones you mentioned - Car Washing, Lawn Watering and other items where "Drinking Water Quality" Water is not needed. I would think that you are also trying to say that all communities along these distribution lines whether it be Oak Lawn or Indiana or any other potential source of Lake Michigan Water would need to be doing the same types of conservation.

As communities have grown farther and farther from the main water source I believe I have read that their water costs have increased.(e.g. Homer Glen and Mokena) How does that city of Oak Forest protect itself or what strategy should they be using to figure out how to proceed?

[JimRossi]

Rollo wrote:

Mr. Rossi,
Are there any Municipal Codes about recycling of Water supplies? I know there are water rules for the summer watering months, but what if anything has our city done to incorporate water plans in their City Plans.
Some household water usage and even rain water could be stored for uses like the ones you mentioned - Car Washing, Lawn Watering and other items where "Drinking Water Quality" Water is not needed. I would think that you are also trying to say that all communities along these distribution lines whether it be Oak Lawn or Indiana or any other potential source of Lake Michigan Water would need to be doing the same types of conservation.
As communities have grown farther and farther from the main water source I believe I have read that their water costs have increased.(e.g. Homer Glen and Mokena) How does that city of Oak Forest protect itself or what strategy should they be using to figure out how to proceed?

You bring up some of my same concerns.
I'm not aware of any municipal codes regarding recycling of water.
Storm water, such as that from sump pumps is prohibited in the sewage system, but there are no requirements for any storage of it.
The city does participate in water restrictions during the summer.
They also support the use of rain barrels, but I'm not aware of any ordinances regarding them.
The last time I was at city hall, they were even selling them at a discount.

I'm saying all communities need to be looking at the result of their uncontrolled consumption, even the ones still using deep wells.
On March 15th, I dispatched a detailed email message to the city regarding many of these issues.
In it, I mentioned that the infrastructure required to provide water for municipalities such as New Lenox and Mokena is far more costly that what is needed to supply Oak Forest, at least from Oak Lawn.
I also mentioned the proposal to loop the system, is good for redundancy, but under normal operating conditions, it's just another way to disguise additional capacity that Oak Forest shouldn't have to pay for.
The loop would have to be extended to the farthest community from Oak Lawn, another cost Oak Forest shouldn't have to pay for.

As I've mentioned for several years now, Oak Forest needs an independent evaluation to protect its interests, both in terms of engineering and legal council.
Absent that, we'll be paying for increased capacity for the developing municipalities, taking advantage of the increased taxes they'll be getting, that we aren't privileged to have.

Jim Rossi
[e-mail]
03/26/10 17:44

[OF Watch]

Has anyone though of getting water from Hammond? I know there are several towns east of here who do. Cost wise, it may be the same to pipe to there as it would to run new lines to Oak Lawn.

[JimRossi]

OF Watch wrote:

Has anyone though of getting water from Hammond? I know there are several towns east of here who do. Cost wise, it may be the same to pipe to there as it would to run new lines to Oak Lawn.

That's been discussed several times in the past.
It should remain on the table during the current analysis.
The real question is if the City of Oak Forest really needs new lines from Oak Forest.

Jim Rossi
[e-mail]
03/27/10 07:28

[JimRossi]

Correction:

The real question is if the City of Oak Forest really needs new lines from Oak LAWN.

Jim Rossi
[e-mail]
03/27/10 07:34

[Reality Check]

Under Mayor Kelly the City Engineers Baxter & Woodman completed an analysis of options for water supply for Oak Forest. OF looked at the possibility of connecting to Alsip and Mid Mark ( Midlothian & Markham ). They also considered the OF Hospital connection which was not possible. Regulations prevent the idea of connecting to the Hammond system. OF was the leader in coordinating several meetings with Tinley Park, Orland Park, Matteson, Country Club Hills, Olympia Fields, Mokena, and New Lenox. Leaders in those communities met to discuss the same water issues being discussed here. Oak Lawn has hired their own experts to review their system and develop a plan. OF under Kelly met with Oak Lawn regularly to stay in the loop as to Oak Lawn's plans. There were articles in the local papers, and updates given at City Council meetings and published in the FYI. Can't say I know what has been done in the last 10 months under the Kuspa administration. Maybe someone would like to go, Rossi?, to the next Council meeting and request an update.

[JimRossi]

Reality Check wrote:

Under Mayor Kelly the City Engineers Baxter & Woodman completed an analysis of options for water supply for Oak Forest. OF looked at the possibility of connecting to Alsip and Mid Mark ( Midlothian & Markham ). They also considered the OF Hospital connection which was not possible. Regulations prevent the idea of connecting to the Hammond system. OF was the leader in coordinating several meetings with Tinley Park, Orland Park, Matteson, Country Club Hills, Olympia Fields, Mokena, and New Lenox. Leaders in those communities met to discuss the same water issues being discussed here. Oak Lawn has hired their own experts to review their system and develop a plan. OF under Kelly met with Oak Lawn regularly to stay in the loop as to Oak Lawn's plans. There were articles in the local papers, and updates given at City Council meetings and published in the FYI. Can't say I know what has been done in the last 10 months under the Kuspa administration. Maybe someone would like to go, Rossi?, to the next Council meeting and request an update.

Baxter & Woodman is a fine engineering firm that has served, and still serves, the City of Oak Forest very well.
Alone, they are not capable of providing a completely independent analysis because they also serve other municipalities, very well.
As far as updates, they've been available for the past "10 months."
The latest one is what started this whole discussion.
http://www.southtownstar.com/neighborhoodstar...
Now, Oak Forest will pay a portion of "...$44,600 to Malcolm Pirnie to conduct an engineering review."
More money spent on yet another engineering analysis that is not independent of the very municipalities that want us to pay more than our fair share.
I don't believe there's any evil intent, but the review will no doubt be focused on what's best for all the towns involved, not what's best for Oak Forest.
The conclusions are probably not identical.
The same exists for sharing the cost of "...$20,000 to the law firm of Holland Knight for assistance in drafting a water supply service agreement."
Oak Forest is closest to Oak Lawn requiring the least amount of infrastructure. Shouldn't they have to pay less for delivery of the water?
Should the cost of increased capacity for outlying suburbs be included in Oak Forest's rates?
As I've stated for years, Oak Forest needs an independent engineering firm, and an independent attorney to provide advice to only Oak Forest.
If nothing else, only to review the proposals from these firms that aren't independent.
I see no value for me to ask for an update at a city council meeting.
That being said, I would very much be interested in the formula used for the municipalities to allocate the costs of these two new firms.
It would be completely unacceptable to me for it to be based on current water consumption when Oak Forest doesn't anticipate the need for much additional capacity.


Jim Rossi
[e-mail]
03/27/10 11:43

[Reality Check]

Jim,

I agree that OF should not have to pay the same costs compared to other communities that will benefit more from the improvements to the system and the additional capacity those improvements bring. I hope the City Mgr or Mayor are engaged in the process and watching out for our interests.
And a comment on the conservation discussion. The City did purchase leak detection equipment a couple of years ago at the recommendation of Troy Ishler. The equipment helps detect leaks before they become breaks. Saves money and conserves water.

[JimRossi]

Reality Check wrote:

Jim,
I agree that OF should not have to pay the same costs compared to other communities that will benefit more from the improvements to the system and the additional capacity those improvements bring. I hope the City Mgr or Mayor are engaged in the process and watching out for our interests.
And a comment on the conservation discussion. The City did purchase leak detection equipment a couple of years ago at the recommendation of Troy Ishler. The equipment helps detect leaks before they become breaks. Saves money and conserves water.

Unfortunately, I'm not convinced "...the City Mgr or Mayor are engaged in the process and watching out for our interests."
I'm particularly concerned about the City Mgr who was quoted in the SouthtownStar last July 1st saying:
"Each town has its own particular issues, but we have more in common than not,"
I couldn't disagree more. Oak Forest is not expanding, and doesn't have the sales tax revenue all the other towns have.
The only thing we have in common on this issue is that we need the water at a reasonable price.

Thanks for the reminder about the leak detection initiative. I do remember that.
I agree Oak Forest has been a leader in water conservation for many years.

Jim Rossi
[e-mail]
03/27/10 15:35

[OUT OF MONEY]

I justpaid ny first water bill with the increase. OUCH! I knew the rate went up, but I didn't expect that kind of bill. I have always conserved water. There isn't any more I can do to conserve. Oak Forest, Tinley, Orland and the rest need to find a better cheaper water source.