Debate = Doubt1ng Th0masand vs TheWis...
Gtown71

United States

#39 Apr 6, 2013
Doubt1ng Th0mas wrote:
Ok, I will bite against my better judgment, just so that your troll counters can start racking up the numbers.
Exactly why do you believe what you believe and EXACTLY why should I?
I worry that I can’t reason you out of a belief that you never reasoned yourself into. Your parents instructed you at an early age about what to believe. Do you ever wonder why children at an early age have to be taught this $hit? Do you really think that a god who created the universe would use such a flawed system for converts?
Do you really care about a pathway to truth? Do you really think that people in positions of authority (Parents/clergy/ pastors) demanding you to believe this way- that jesus is the son of god- only because they demanded for you to believe, makes it right/a pathway to truth?
Please use reason to make me realize the error of my ways and start me believing like you.
My pathway to Atheism was paved with a situation where a good friend was telling me that she refused to drink the Christian Kool-Aid. This in turn made me, a Christian , go home and come up with demonstrable evidence to prove her Atheistic position un-sustainable. Guess what ? The evidence was not there. I had to back up and find evidence for myself before I could start directing others on the pathway for truth. I am asking for you to supply the same truth that I was looking for; to prove her wrong, big surprise, to prove me wrong.
Do you claim to have evidence to prove Christianity/Jesus as true? Contemporary History - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contemporary - of Jesus where it should be expected? Will you point me to such evidence outside of the circular reasoning fallacy of using the bible to prove the bible.(if you don’t understand, I will wait for a response after much ‘jumping through hoops’ on your part to wrap your head around the concept while you look up circular reasoning examples). A ‘Cliff Note for You’- http://c2.com/cgi/wiki...
You've told how you bacame an atheist, but can you tell how you became a christian?

Since: Dec 11

Location hidden

#40 Apr 6, 2013
Yes I would be glad to.

When I was 17 I was in love with a girl who eventually became my wife. She went to a church that had a wonderful youth ministry and a young charismatic preacher so I followed her there. This preacher was instrumental in leading me to the Christ and I still think fondly of him(the preacher) but I just think now that he was misguided. I think he was truly sincere in his beliefs. Is a good person not because of his Christianity but in spite of it. Was commanded by his religion to “win” converts to his religion. I was one of those he “won” largely because I was young and impressionable, as most 17 year olds are (thats why the military wants those ages, those ages are the most malleable) and was completely blown away by this concept of a Sky Daddy that controls everything, has a plan for me and loved me. Who wouldn't feel comfortable in a position like that. I surrendered like the French in World War Two.

This would have been in the late 70's and this mindset serviced me well into the late 90's. My first introduction to the Internet was in 1995. I loved the Internet, likening it to a week spent at the Smithsonian Museum every hour I spent on line. Looking up everything from recipes to how to rebuild a 350 Chevy with 400 hp heads. I was always running across anti-theism or atheist sites but I would never read any of them as in my Christian mind set it was spawned by the devil.

Since: Dec 11

Location hidden

#41 Apr 6, 2013
One afternoon I was repairing a ceiling fan for a friend and was telling her that I had embarked on a quest for knowledge about Abraham, one of the center pins of Christianity, Islamic and Jewish faiths. She told me that she rejected all of the god claims as not rational. I was devastated, this lady that I thought the world of was destined to a eternity in hell. It was my job as a Christian to show her the light of Jesus to avoid hell. What kind of friend would I be if I didn't do that. So I went back to the Atheist's and anti-theist sites I avoided like the plague in an effort to wrap my mind around how she thought and I could go line by line using the bible to prove her wrong. Well guess what, I could not find any corroborative evidence outside of the claims of the bible. That sent me on a quest to then find the origins of the bible so that I could hoist it up as a definitive guide about the life of man on gods earth and thats where it finally caught up with me; after fully seeing the historical evidence of how the bible was complied and the time line of how we have the bible in its present form here in the 21st century I could no longer view it as the literal word of God as the church had me believe. I realized that I had been filtering and twisting information and never really looking for the truth. Thats is when the blinders came off for the first time and it was truly liberating. No more 'God detested me',no more 'you will burn in hell' and no more worrying that my friend will roast in her excrement for an eternity.
I have come to realize that the people that love and care the most are those that believe that this is all we have, the right here and now. These are the people that are truly committed to making the world a better place. We think that it is our job as loving humans to make the world a better place and not plan on a Sky Daddy to do the hard work of making it so. Thats the reason that I can hate the religion but not hate the believer, I just think that they are mis-informed.

Why do I detest religion? Just look around at the atrocities committed by the religious who blindly drink the kool-aid (kook-aid) daily. Do you remember 911? Have you read about the crusades? Have you read about the inquisition?

This Steven Weinberg's quote becomes profound after releasing the chains imposed by religion.“With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.”
Spooner

Pearl, MS

#42 Apr 6, 2013
Doubt1ng Th0mas wrote:
One afternoon I was repairing a ceiling fan for a friend and was telling her that I had embarked on a quest for knowledge about Abraham, one of the center pins of Christianity, Islamic and Jewish faiths. She told me that she rejected all of the god claims as not rational. I was devastated, this lady that I thought the world of was destined to a eternity in hell. It was my job as a Christian to show her the light of Jesus to avoid hell. What kind of friend would I be if I didn't do that. So I went back to the Atheist's and anti-theist sites I avoided like the plague in an effort to wrap my mind around how she thought and I could go line by line using the bible to prove her wrong. Well guess what, I could not find any corroborative evidence outside of the claims of the bible. That sent me on a quest to then find the origins of the bible so that I could hoist it up as a definitive guide about the life of man on gods earth and thats where it finally caught up with me; after fully seeing the historical evidence of how the bible was complied and the time line of how we have the bible in its present form here in the 21st century I could no longer view it as the literal word of God as the church had me believe. I realized that I had been filtering and twisting information and never really looking for the truth. Thats is when the blinders came off for the first time and it was truly liberating. No more 'God detested me',no more 'you will burn in hell' and no more worrying that my friend will roast in her excrement for an eternity.
I have come to realize that the people that love and care the most are those that believe that this is all we have, the right here and now. These are the people that are truly committed to making the world a better place. We think that it is our job as loving humans to make the world a better place and not plan on a Sky Daddy to do the hard work of making it so. Thats the reason that I can hate the religion but not hate the believer, I just think that they are mis-informed.
Why do I detest religion? Just look around at the atrocities committed by the religious who blindly drink the kool-aid (kook-aid) daily. Do you remember 911? Have you read about the crusades? Have you read about the inquisition?
This Steven Weinberg's quote becomes profound after releasing the chains imposed by religion.“With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.”
Is the marriage still good, and if so what is her belief ?

Since: Dec 11

Location hidden

#43 Apr 6, 2013
Spooner wrote:
<quoted text>
Is the marriage still good, and if so what is her belief ?
I lost her to an accident in the 80's and still think of her daily. But let me be clear, I do not blame a deity that I do not recognize for her passing, her passing was just that- an accident. I and the world at large was privileged to have know her for the few years we had her. I do not need the reassuring claim of getting to see her again to believe in a deity. I secretly hope to be surprised in my passing to see those that passed before me but given evidence presented to date, I don't expect it to happen. And if by chance it does happen I don't think a deity, the same deity that gave me the gift of reason, would hold it against me that I applied his gifts of reason to cast a skeptical eye at the silly god claims that have been presented to date.
Gtown71

United States

#44 Apr 6, 2013
Doubt1ng Th0mas wrote:
<quoted text>
I lost her to an accident in the 80's and still think of her daily. But let me be clear, I do not blame a deity that I do not recognize for her passing, her passing was just that- an accident. I and the world at large was privileged to have know her for the few years we had her. I do not need the reassuring claim of getting to see her again to believe in a deity. I secretly hope to be surprised in my passing to see those that passed before me but given evidence presented to date, I don't expect it to happen. And if by chance it does happen I don't think a deity, the same deity that gave me the gift of reason, would hold it against me that I applied his gifts of reason to cast a skeptical eye at the silly god claims that have been presented to date.
I am truly sorry for your loss.
I thank you for what you've written, and I also believe what you say is true, but... I still didn't hear how you at one time became a christian.
What I read, was how someone you had respect for talked you into signing up for something, and how another person you had respect for talked you out of it, after doing your own research.

A man that went to the church I attend, would've told you that he was for sure a christian, after all he had been comming faithful for well over 20 years, but about 3 years ago we had a preacher preach one night, and one by one he looked at everyone and asked if they died tonight, would they go to Heaven? When he was asked this, he couldn't answer. He then realized he was lost. He got saved that night,after all those years in church, he didn't "know " God. There was a change in him instantly. He was always nice, and polite, but during what is called meet and greet -he was stay in his spot, smile and shake hands with anyone who offered, yet after he was born again -he was all over the church shaking peoples hands every sunday. The part I don't understand is that God must be drawing soneone before they can be saved,and a lost man seeks after God, like a theif seeks after a cop,and God resist the proud, but will accept the humble. I don't have all the answers, but I do believe with all that is in me, that there is a God, and there is a huge difference in knowing God, and being religious.
godly man

Missoula, MT

#45 Apr 6, 2013
Gtown71 wrote:
<quoted text>
I am truly sorry for your loss.
I thank you for what you've written, and I also believe what you say is true, but... I still didn't hear how you at one time became a christian.
What I read, was how someone you had respect for talked you into signing up for something, and how another person you had respect for talked you out of it, after doing your own research.
A man that went to the church I attend, would've told you that he was for sure a christian, after all he had been comming faithful for well over 20 years, but about 3 years ago we had a preacher preach one night, and one by one he looked at everyone and asked if they died tonight, would they go to Heaven? When he was asked this, he couldn't answer. He then realized he was lost. He got saved that night,after all those years in church, he didn't "know " God. There was a change in him instantly. He was always nice, and polite, but during what is called meet and greet -he was stay in his spot, smile and shake hands with anyone who offered, yet after he was born again -he was all over the church shaking peoples hands every sunday. The part I don't understand is that God must be drawing soneone before they can be saved,and a lost man seeks after God, like a theif seeks after a cop,and God resist the proud, but will accept the humble. I don't have all the answers, but I do believe with all that is in me, that there is a God, and there is a huge difference in knowing God, and being religious.
i think you're just a very spiritual person, and there's nothing wrong with that. believe it or not, i am too. i also think that you have a bad case of being extremely grateful for existing. same here. i think you genuinely love people and want to spread love in the world... and that's great too! guess what? i do too!

despite all the shit i give you, i actually think you're a good person, gtown, BUT... like DT said, just a little misguided. i'd also add that you're a little willfully ignorant too, but i'll try to stay positive.

i would almost say that if all christians were like you, christianity wouldn't be that bad, but that might be a bit of a stretch. you still support some pretty anti-progressive ideas.

no, as much as i want to tell you that your good intentions make your beliefs harmless, i just can't. no matter how good of a life you live, you still support a religion that persecutes innocent people and promotes a backwards ideology.

i'm sorry. that's as nice as i can sincerely be.
Spooner

Pearl, MS

#46 Apr 6, 2013
Doubt1ng Th0mas wrote:
<quoted text>
I lost her to an accident in the 80's and still think of her daily. But let me be clear, I do not blame a deity that I do not recognize for her passing, her passing was just that- an accident. I and the world at large was privileged to have know her for the few years we had her. I do not need the reassuring claim of getting to see her again to believe in a deity. I secretly hope to be surprised in my passing to see those that passed before me but given evidence presented to date, I don't expect it to happen. And if by chance it does happen I don't think a deity, the same deity that gave me the gift of reason, would hold it against me that I applied his gifts of reason to cast a skeptical eye at the silly god claims that have been presented to date.
Let me just say, i'm sorry for the loss of your wife. To all her friends and family, and the folks that missed the chance to know her.
Also I would never say, or imply that it was anything but a accident. Although we disagree, I have respect for you, and your posts.
facts
#47 Apr 6, 2013
Doubt1ng Th0mas wrote:
<quoted text>
I lost her to an accident in the 80's and still think of her daily. But let me be clear, I do not blame a deity that I do not recognize for her passing, her passing was just that- an accident. I and the world at large was privileged to have know her for the few years we had her. I do not need the reassuring claim of getting to see her again to believe in a deity. I secretly hope to be surprised in my passing to see those that passed before me but given evidence presented to date, I don't expect it to happen. And if by chance it does happen I don't think a deity, the same deity that gave me the gift of reason, would hold it against me that I applied his gifts of reason to cast a skeptical eye at the silly god claims that have been presented to date.
i am sorry about this happening too i got in church by my wife like you did too and we lost a baby last year and i told her when she started having trouble i dont know if i can keep on for God but if it wasnt for her it would of been hard for me to go on

Since: Dec 11

Location hidden

#48 Apr 6, 2013
facts wrote:
<quoted text>
i am sorry about this happening too i got in church by my wife like you did too and we lost a baby last year and i told her when she started having trouble i dont know if i can keep on for God but if it wasnt for her it would of been hard for me to go on
I too am sorry for your loss. As for your relationship with your wife; you and I both have appreciation for the old saying 'behind every great man there is an even greater woman'.
facts
#49 Apr 6, 2013
Doubt1ng Th0mas wrote:
<quoted text>
I too am sorry for your loss. As for your relationship with your wife; you and I both have appreciation for the old saying 'behind every great man there is an even greater woman'.
yeah i appreciate that you know she has kept me going if i have said anything out of the way i apologize if i sound hard for sharing my beleifs but its what keeps me going
Spooner

Pearl, MS

#50 Apr 6, 2013
godly man wrote:
<quoted text>
i think you're just a very spiritual person, and there's nothing wrong with that. believe it or not, i am too. i also think that you have a bad case of being extremely grateful for existing. same here. i think you genuinely love people and want to spread love in the world... and that's great too! guess what? i do too!
despite all the shit i give you, i actually think you're a good person, gtown, BUT... like DT said, just a little misguided. i'd also add that you're a little willfully ignorant too, but i'll try to stay positive.
i would almost say that if all christians were like you, christianity wouldn't be that bad, but that might be a bit of a stretch. you still support some pretty anti-progressive ideas.
no, as much as i want to tell you that your good intentions make your beliefs harmless, i just can't. no matter how good of a life you live, you still support a religion that persecutes innocent people and promotes a backwards ideology.
i'm sorry. that's as nice as i can sincerely be.
You mean that you were trying to be nice ?

Would you write me a love letter too MB ?
Gtown71

United States

#51 Apr 7, 2013
godly man wrote:
<quoted text>
i think you're just a very spiritual person, and there's nothing wrong with that. believe it or not, i am too. i also think that you have a bad case of being extremely grateful for existing. same here. i think you genuinely love people and want to spread love in the world... and that's great too! guess what? i do too!
despite all the shit i give you, i actually think you're a good person, gtown, BUT... like DT said, just a little misguided. i'd also add that you're a little willfully ignorant too, but i'll try to stay positive.
i would almost say that if all christians were like you, christianity wouldn't be that bad, but that might be a bit of a stretch. you still support some pretty anti-progressive ideas.
no, as much as i want to tell you that your good intentions make your beliefs harmless, i just can't. no matter how good of a life you live, you still support a religion that persecutes innocent people and promotes a backwards ideology.
i'm sorry. that's as nice as i can sincerely be.
I do thank you, for your kind words, but just to be very clear -no matter how "good " I appear to you, I'm not. I can be, a very kind, loving person, and I can be the most vile, evil thing you would ever wish to see. I didn't learn this about myself from religion, I learned it from "living? ".

I also like you, becouse you are sincere in what you believe, but so was saul, before he became paul.
anon

Memphis, TN

#52 Apr 7, 2013
llllllllllllllllllllll wrote:
Here's what I'm going to do to you retard, I'm going to visit you in your dreams. And an evil spirit is going to come and live with you and everywhere you go it shall go with you.
And this shall be upon you and shall not leave you, only by my word.
So.....does this mean you're the devil himself? Or are you just a demon rejected because you can't seem to get it through your drug addicted brain that God is about love, not demon possession. You are a powerless little man who can't take rejection NOR accept the fact that you never had a ministry to begin with. You're a loser and a poser and if you are sincerely a man of God, then I'll pass on your outdated, uniformed views of God and His love. You....are a lunatic!!!! Not to mention a heretic!!!! Go take some more pain pills and see what other visions you can come up with, you LOSER!!!!!!!
IMHO

Corinth, MS

#53 Apr 7, 2013
All I know is this: we are here.
Though I don't know what, there HAS to be something.

Now, I'm not going to tell someone how or why, because I do not know that fact for myself. And the truth is, no one does. Anything you believe about the creation or existence of man is only a theory, nothing more.

With that being said, at the various low points in my life, I have visited Christian churches. When I had no where else to turn, it felt comforting to have the support of a congregation. It FELT comforting to have something to believe in, and goals to achieve.

There are some people who take things to extremes, but, as has been already been said by someone else, I pity them more than anything. They were never given the opportunity to think outside the box. BUT- they have found something that gives them comfort in today's troubled world. Religion, in that concept, is the same as alcoholism,drug use, and other addictions like exercise and music...it's how people cope.
Debating whether one religion is right or wrong has the same impact as arguing over which band is better. Everyone has their own opinions, shaped from every experience in their life from birth. No one is right; no one is wrong.

.....getting off of my soapbox now ;)

“Bored and Annoyed”

Since: Mar 11

Location hidden

#54 Apr 9, 2013
Doubt1ng Th0mas wrote:
One afternoon I was repairing a ceiling fan for a friend and was telling her that I had embarked on a quest for knowledge about Abraham, one of the center pins of Christianity, Islamic and Jewish faiths. She told me that she rejected all of the god claims as not rational. I was devastated, this lady that I thought the world of was destined to a eternity in hell. It was my job as a Christian to show her the light of Jesus to avoid hell. What kind of friend would I be if I didn't do that. So I went back to the Atheist's and anti-theist sites I avoided like the plague in an effort to wrap my mind around how she thought and I could go line by line using the bible to prove her wrong. Well guess what, I could not find any corroborative evidence outside of the claims of the bible. That sent me on a quest to then find the origins of the bible so that I could hoist it up as a definitive guide about the life of man on gods earth and thats where it finally caught up with me; after fully seeing the historical evidence of how the bible was complied and the time line of how we have the bible in its present form here in the 21st century I could no longer view it as the literal word of God as the church had me believe. I realized that I had been filtering and twisting information and never really looking for the truth. Thats is when the blinders came off for the first time and it was truly liberating. No more 'God detested me',no more 'you will burn in hell' and no more worrying that my friend will roast in her excrement for an eternity.
I have come to realize that the people that love and care the most are those that believe that this is all we have, the right here and now. These are the people that are truly committed to making the world a better place. We think that it is our job as loving humans to make the world a better place and not plan on a Sky Daddy to do the hard work of making it so. Thats the reason that I can hate the religion but not hate the believer, I just think that they are mis-informed.

Why do I detest religion? Just look around at the atrocities committed by the religious who blindly drink the kool-aid (kook-aid) daily. Do you remember 911? Have you read about the crusades? Have you read about the inquisition?

This Steven Weinberg's quote becomes profound after releasing the chains imposed by religion.“With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.”
Beautiful.
Prophet of Jesus Christ

San Antonio, TX

#55 Apr 14, 2013
anon wrote:
<quoted text>
So.....does this mean you're the devil himself? Or are you just a demon rejected because you can't seem to get it through your drug addicted brain that God is about love, not demon possession. You are a powerless little man who can't take rejection NOR accept the fact that you never had a ministry to begin with. You're a loser and a poser and if you are sincerely a man of God, then I'll pass on your outdated, uniformed views of God and His love. You....are a lunatic!!!! Not to mention a heretic!!!! Go take some more pain pills and see what other visions you can come up with, you LOSER!!!!!!!
Will you stake your soul on what you said is the truth?

A. yes

B. no

Will you walk your talk?

Since: Dec 11

Location hidden

#56 Apr 15, 2013
Prophet of Jesus Christ wrote:
<quoted text>
Will you stake your soul on what you said is the truth?
A. yes
B. no
Will you walk your talk?
Are you to ever answer my simple question?

The original one -“what do you believe and why should I?”

Or are you to continually pontificate like you previously have with every remark, however commonplace, as though it was pregnant with great meaning and significance.

Or let me lower the standards somewhat.

Before I could, or would, participate in your Pascalian Wager “bet my soul” I would need you to quantify ‘soul’ first if you are going to narrow down the answers to a simple ‘Yes or No’.

If you were able to quantify the soul I will be the first to congratulate you as you are receiving your Nobel Prize.

There have been people way more learned than you and I combined that have never been able to quantify the soul so good luck to you.
facts
#57 Apr 16, 2013
Gtown71 wrote:
<quoted text>
I do thank you, for your kind words, but just to be very clear -no matter how "good " I appear to you, I'm not. I can be, a very kind, loving person, and I can be the most vile, evil thing you would ever wish to see. I didn't learn this about myself from religion, I learned it from "living? ".
I also like you, becouse you are sincere in what you believe, but so was saul, before he became paul.
well gtown you are right if mb got the holy ghost i would go to hear him preach however what took place here is in the bible where king agrippa said unto paul thou almost persuaded me to be a christian you almost persuaded mb but to be almost saved is to be totally lost
facts
#58 Apr 16, 2013
Gtown71 wrote:
<quoted text>
I do thank you, for your kind words, but just to be very clear -no matter how "good " I appear to you, I'm not. I can be, a very kind, loving person, and I can be the most vile, evil thing you would ever wish to see. I didn't learn this about myself from religion, I learned it from "living? ".
I also like you, becouse you are sincere in what you believe, but so was saul, before he became paul.
and i understand its not your fault you did your part but nobody can make that decision for mb but mb himself

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