Episcopal Drama Rocks SC

Episcopal Drama Rocks SC

There are 1811 comments on the FITSNews story from Oct 17, 2012, titled Episcopal Drama Rocks SC. In it, FITSNews reports that:

The national Episcopal church has advised South Carolina Bishop Mark Lawrence that he has "abandoned" the church as a result of his refusal to accept its teachings on gay marriage and the ordination of gay and female clergy.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at FITSNews.

“... truth will out.”

Since: May 08

Stratford, Connecticut.

#1856 May 21, 2013
MiddleWay wrote:
It's your choice who you follow but you cannot follow both as Saul contradicts Jesus ...
Chapters and verses for these so-called contradictions?

The only contradictions I see are between Saul and your favorite Episcopal cleric, Bishop John Spong.

“The Kingdom of God Begins NOW!”

Since: May 07

The Mountain Empire

#1857 May 22, 2013
Joe DeCaro wrote:
<quoted text>
Chapters and verses for these so-called contradictions?
The only contradictions I see are between Saul and your favorite Episcopal cleric, Bishop John Spong.
Faith vs works
Saul vs Jesus and James
I've already giving you loads of verses over the years.
Look them up yourself this time.
I'll leave you with a good read:
Even in John 3, the discourse to Nicodemus on salvation as a gift of grace, Jesus includes specific behavioral requirements (John 3:19-21). In any case, while some writings (other than Paul) may occasionally discuss faith as a separate topic (as with honesty, courage, etc.), no one (except Paul) ever states that salvation can occur with any of these virtues apart from works/deeds actions. This does not mean that, in teaching us the behavior of salvation that Jesus did not thus give us a free gift far beyond what we could ever earn, a gift of grace, but it does not mean that it was given entirely apart from specified behavioral conditions, as Paul says.

“The Kingdom of God Begins NOW!”

Since: May 07

The Mountain Empire

#1858 May 22, 2013
Occasionally, someone will bring up the case of the thief being crucified alongside Jesus, and note that Jesus said to him in Luke 23:43,“Today you will be with me in Paradise.”
The claim is that Jesus granted salvation solely on his profession of support for the dying Jesus. However, we do not know what past aspects of character or behavior Jesus took into consideration that preceded the cross. Perhaps if one is hanging on a cross, the utterance of a word of encouragement to one in similar straits — truly humbled to the status of “least of these”— might be the most you can do. But again, we don’t know why the thief was on the cross. Perhaps he had gotten caught stealing a loaf of bread from a Roman Centurion who had taken it from an impoverished widow, and the “thief” was trying to return it to its rightful owner. The text does not say, so I draw no conclusions, as are those who are quick to jump to conclusions about details not in the passage.
In any case, even if one accepted such an interpretation, it would simply be yet another Bible contradiction in addition to those already provided, since it directly opposes those verses I have cited in which Jesus clearly states that salvation is based on universal compassionate love expressed actively in deeds, but without mentioning faith or belief at all.
All of the gospels are replete with statements of behavioral obligation that never once make any statement remotely similar to Paul that the faith and grace that engender salvation occur “apart from” obedience, works or deeds.
Paul vs. James
Paul teaches that the gift of salvation through grace occurs apart from any behavioral requirement: Romans 3:28:“Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.”
Paul reiterates this position in: Romans 4:6; Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 2:8-9; II Timothy 1:9; Titus 3:5 — the first Bible writer to make the claim that salvation occurs apart from actions, which Paul repeatedly emphasizes.
Paul is specifically rebutted by the later writing of James (brother of Jesus) who offers one of the most striking and dramatic direct contradictions, in James 2:24, choosing vocabulary and syntax that specifically contradicts Paul’s wording in Romans 3:28 in both content and construction:
Here are the two passages, shown in various translations:
Romans 3:28 (Paul)
KJV: a man is justified by faith apart from works of the law.
RSV: a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Today’s English Version: a person is put right with god only through faith, and not by doing what the Law commands.
NIV: a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.
James 2:24 (James’ rebuttal)
KJV: by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
RSV: a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
Today’s English Version: it is by his actions that a person is put right with god, and not by his faith alone.
NIV: a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.
Clearly, James seems to be saying exactly the opposite of what Paul says. The key words here, in both passages, are justified (or, in Today’s English,“put right with God”), works/deeds/actions (or, in NIV,“observing the law”), and faith (same in all versions of both passages). Not only does James echo the same
an intentional reply/rebuttal to Paul.

“The Kingdom of God Begins NOW!”

Since: May 07

The Mountain Empire

#1859 May 22, 2013
Examining the original texts: If anyone wants to suggest that, perhaps, the two passages have different root words in the original texts that just happened to pick up similar English equivalents by all these translators, then maybe we should look at the Greek source texts.
The same Greek word dikaioo is used by both Paul AND James for the term justification (or “put right with God”) in both passages. While the Today’s English Version does use a different term in their English translation, at least they apply it consis
d to include additional contexts. But earlier in the same chapter (James 2), just before the verse in question and his reference to Paul’s example of Abraham and Isaac, James discusses behavior (2:8-13) in very specific in terms of deeds of the Law.

Since: Aug 09

Location hidden

#1860 May 22, 2013
MiddleWay wrote:
Examining the original texts: If anyone wants to suggest that, perhaps, the two passages have different root words in the original texts that just happened to pick up similar English equivalents by all these translators, then maybe we should look at the Greek source texts.
The same Greek word dikaioo is used by both Paul AND James for the term justification (or “put right with God”) in both passages. While the Today’s English Version does use a different term in their English translation, at least they apply it consis
d to include additional contexts. But earlier in the same chapter (James 2), just before the verse in question and his reference to Paul’s example of Abraham and Isaac, James discusses behavior (2:8-13) in very specific in terms of deeds of the Law.
Thank you so much for providing these scriptural comparisons and references.

These ought to leave all of us shaking in our boots. It is so easy to become self-satisfied and so sure of our own righteousness and so cognizant of the immensity of the deficiencies of others,....

It is a wonder that we all don't just disappear immediately in a puff of smoke and a flash of light and find ourselves having tea and crumpets with Jesus, Joseph and Mary.

Jesus frequently taught through parables. Some of these simple stories are far more elaborate in their structure and implications than many who profess to understand them either comprehend or acknowledge.

In some cases, the scripture reports that Jesus actually explained some of the parables. So, in these, we have more than the idea; but, also the working thought.

One of the most famous of His parables is the "Good Samaritan."

Understand. Luke 10 : 25-37.

Two people, a priest and a Levite (also one of the priestly class) pass by the injured person, refusing to provide help. Both of these "Holy" men are said to actually go out of their way, passing by on the other side of the road, to avoid the injured person.

In contrast, a Samaritan, a foreigner to the Jews and not considered worthy of the promise of Salvation by Abraham to the Jews, is moved by compassion to give aid to the injured man. He even goes with him, helping the man to the tavern-Inn and puts the man up, paying the innkeeper, in advance, to nurse the man back to health.

Consider.

Jesus makes the point that Righteous Action involves actually doing something. It is not enough just to live in the shadow of the Promise of Faith.

Another point, rarely made, is that the Samaritan undoubtedly knew the innkeeper. The innkeeper trusted him to return and pay any extra costs.

Even more, the Samaritan was undoubtedly a businessman, having sufficient wealth and reputation to be trusted. The point being that the personal possession and use of material wealth is not necessarily an impediment to the exercise of neighborly care that will be recognized as Right Action.

The priest and the Levite, on the other hand, were paid and taken care of by the taxes of the government. Yet, those taxes were not an automated allowance employed to help the injured man.

See it for what it is.

Rev. Ken

Since: Jun 07

Location hidden

#1861 May 22, 2013
THU SHALT NOT STEAL...that is what it says.

“... truth will out.”

Since: May 08

Stratford, Connecticut.

#1862 May 22, 2013
MiddleWay wrote:
<quoted text>
Faith vs works
Saul vs Jesus and James
I've already giving you loads of verses over the years.
Look them up yourself this time.
I'll leave you with a good read:
Even in John 3 ...
But Paul didn't write John's Gospel; I want contradictions of what Jesus taught that YOU claim Paul wrote, chapter and verse.

Since: Aug 09

Location hidden

#1863 May 22, 2013
Joe DeCaro wrote:
<quoted text>
But Paul didn't write John's Gospel; I want contradictions of what Jesus taught that YOU claim Paul wrote, chapter and verse.
Let him sweat it out, MW.

He can read the scripture for himself.

“... truth will out.”

Since: May 08

Stratford, Connecticut.

#1864 May 23, 2013
RevKen wrote:
<quoted text>
Let him sweat it out, MW.
He can read the scripture for himself.
I can read them if MW provides the chapters and verses of his claimed contradictions, and it's no sweat if they really exist, right kenny?

“The Kingdom of God Begins NOW!”

Since: May 07

The Mountain Empire

#1865 May 23, 2013
RevKen wrote:
<quoted text>
Thank you so much for providing these scriptural comparisons and references.
These ought to leave all of us shaking in our boots. It is so easy to become self-satisfied and so sure of our own righteousness and so cognizant of the immensity of the deficiencies of others,....
It is a wonder that we all don't just disappear immediately in a puff of smoke and a flash of light and find ourselves having tea and crumpets with Jesus, Joseph and Mary.
Jesus frequently taught through parables. Some of these simple stories are far more elaborate in their structure and implications than many who profess to understand them either comprehend or acknowledge.
In some cases, the scripture reports that Jesus actually explained some of the parables. So, in these, we have more than the idea; but, also the working thought.
One of the most famous of His parables is the "Good Samaritan."
Understand. Luke 10 : 25-37.
Two people, a priest and a Levite (also one of the priestly class) pass by the injured person, refusing to provide help. Both of these "Holy" men are said to actually go out of their way, passing by on the other side of the road, to avoid the injured person.
In contrast, a Samaritan, a foreigner to the Jews and not considered worthy of the promise of Salvation by Abraham to the Jews, is moved by compassion to give aid to the injured man. He even goes with him, helping the man to the tavern-Inn and puts the man up, paying the innkeeper, in advance, to nurse the man back to health.
Consider.
Jesus makes the point that Righteous Action involves actually doing something. It is not enough just to live in the shadow of the Promise of Faith.
Another point, rarely made, is that the Samaritan undoubtedly knew the innkeeper. The innkeeper trusted him to return and pay any extra costs.
Even more, the Samaritan was undoubtedly a businessman, having sufficient wealth and reputation to be trusted. The point being that the personal possession and use of material wealth is not necessarily an impediment to the exercise of neighborly care that will be recognized as Right Action.
The priest and the Levite, on the other hand, were paid and taken care of by the taxes of the government. Yet, those taxes were not an automated allowance employed to help the injured man.
See it for what it is.
Rev. Ken
Thank you my brother. As I've said before I'd hear a sermon from you any day of the week and twice on Sunday.....

“The Kingdom of God Begins NOW!”

Since: May 07

The Mountain Empire

#1866 May 23, 2013
RevKen wrote:
<quoted text>
Let him sweat it out, MW.
He can read the scripture for himself.
He can find some of my old posts that have regurgitated this material over and over.

Obtuse by choice, poor joline......

“... truth will out.”

Since: May 08

Stratford, Connecticut.

#1867 May 24, 2013
MiddleWay wrote:
<quoted text>
He can find some of my old posts that have regurgitated this material ...
I'm not going to rummage through your previous posts looking for citations that aren't there.

We both know that you couldn't find the scripture to support your claims back then, and you obviously still don't now.

Since: Aug 09

Location hidden

#1868 May 24, 2013
Joe DeCaro wrote:
<quoted text>
I'm not going to rummage through your previous posts looking for citations that aren't there.
We both know that you couldn't find the scripture to support your claims back then, and you obviously still don't now.
Nothing but taunting lies, Joeyboy.

The reason you won't "rummage" is that you really don't want to know. I was here when MiddleWay gave you the directions you have asked for. You ignored him then.

If he does it again, you'll ignore him again.

That's your track record, Joey.

“KiMare'a the Monster Mutation”

Since: Nov 10

Location hidden

#1869 May 28, 2013
Gay sex is inherently harmful, unhealthy and demeaning.

SS couples are only ever a mutually sterile duplicated half of marriage. Clearly not the same or equal.

Since: Jun 07

Location hidden

#1870 May 28, 2013
KiMare wrote:
Gay sex is inherently harmful, unhealthy and demeaning.
SS couples are only ever a mutually sterile duplicated half of marriage. Clearly not the same or equal.
Then you are NOT doing it right!
SHADOW

Bulverde, TX

#1871 May 28, 2013
Selecia Jones- JAX FL wrote:
<quoted text>Then you are NOT doing it right!
Maybe you can explain what makes a perverted act like same sex anything but abnormal.
Remember normal people are watching

“... truth will out.”

Since: May 08

Stratford, Connecticut.

#1872 May 28, 2013
RevKen wrote:
<quoted text>
Nothing but taunting lies, Joeyboy.
The reason you won't "rummage" is that you really don't want to know. I was here when MiddleWay gave you the directions you have asked for ...
I didn't ask for "directions": I asked for the chapters and verses that supported M-Way's bogus claim that the writings of Paul contradicted the teachings of Jesus, which M-Way couldn't provide because we all know they're not in the Bible.

Perhaps they're in your New Age handbook, Kenny?

“KiMare'a the Monster Mutation”

Since: Nov 10

Location hidden

#1873 May 28, 2013
KiMare wrote:
Gay sex is inherently harmful, unhealthy and demeaning.
SS couples are only ever a mutually sterile duplicated half of marriage. Clearly not the same or equal.
Selecia Jones- JAX FL wrote:
<quoted text>Then you are NOT doing it right!
As one Doctor said, "Too much lub and an anal condom is almost enough for safe sex."

Since: Aug 09

Location hidden

#1874 May 28, 2013
Joe DeCaro wrote:
<quoted text>
I didn't ask for "directions": I asked for the chapters and verses that supported M-Way's bogus claim that the writings of Paul contradicted the teachings of Jesus, which M-Way couldn't provide because we all know they're not in the Bible.
Perhaps they're in your New Age handbook, Kenny?
LOL!!!.....

Last time you tried that line of reasoning, you found yourself making excuses for the Bible. I'm not a "New-Ager." But, I do believe that the infant Jesus was visited by three Oriental Kings.

Maybe their ghosts can answer why they made that pilgrammage.

Rev. Ken

“... truth will out.”

Since: May 08

Stratford, Connecticut.

#1875 May 29, 2013
RevKen wrote:
<quoted text>
LOL!!!.....
Last time you tried that line of reasoning, you found yourself making excuses for the Bible. I'm not a "New-Ager." But, I do believe that the infant Jesus was visited by three Oriental Kings.
Maybe their ghosts can answer why they made that pilgrammage ...
Are you planning on holding a seance, "rev"?
I'm sure TEC will eventually develop a liturgy for communicating with the dead despite what scripture says to the contrary.

BTW, it's you, not the Bible, that needs excuses made on your behalf.

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