Nicodemus ask, "How can this be"
New Guy

Morehead, KY

#21 Jan 31, 2013
calvin wrote:
The sinner is apart from the life of God, dead in trespasses and sins, is ignorant, is without understanding, is blind to spiritual truth, doubly blinded by Satan and the world as well, and in that condition there is nothing he can do for himself to become alive.
You think by some prayer, by way of an altar call, you can woo your way to Life. You might as well try to raise somebody at the local mortuary, or even better yet, go to the nearest graveyard and try pleading with the corpses to see if they can raise themselves from the dead. It can't be done. Life has to come from the one who is the source of life, God Himself. And if there's going to be any response, then there has to be a work of God prior to that response. And that is what the Bible calls regeneration.
How about the story of the prodigal son? He was dead according to the father, yet lived. We read that the prodigal came to himself and went back to the father. We read nothing that says the father caused him to be alive again, and then he returned.

You're talking to several here from the Church of Christ. Your point about prayers and altar calls falls flat with most of this group because we believe those to be damnable lies.

You are not going to get any takers on the idea that man must be reborn even before faith. We all believe, in one form or another, that faith is the cause of mans' new birth.
New Guy

Morehead, KY

#22 Jan 31, 2013
calvin wrote:
<quoted text>
John 3 speaks nothing of water baptism. Jesus was discussing a supernatural work of God that enables one to qualify for the Kingdom. Jesus was not commanding anything at all in John 3. He was not commanding water baptism and Spirit. He made a point that one must BE born from God before one can even see the Kingdom.
Do you believe Titus 3:5 to be a commentary of John 3? I do, and I believe the new birth and washing of regeneration to be the same thing.
calvin

Axton, VA

#23 Jan 31, 2013
New Guy wrote:
<quoted text>
Do you believe Titus 3:5 to be a commentary of John 3? I do, and I believe the new birth and washing of regeneration to be the same thing.
Titus 3:5 is not Christian baptism. It mirrors John 3 indeed but Gods workmanship not ours.
New Guy

Morehead, KY

#24 Jan 31, 2013
calvin wrote:
<quoted text>
Titus 3:5 is not Christian baptism. It mirrors John 3 indeed but Gods workmanship not ours.
Who said Christian baptism was our workmanship? I certainly did not. And neither does the scripture. God is the one at work in baptism. Not us. Titus 3 certainly is Christian baptism.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#25 Jan 31, 2013
New Guy wrote:
<quoted text>
Does this mean that you also see baptism in play in John 3, although we disagree on the meaning of it?
John 3:3-7 and John 3:22–30 are completely different settings.

Reading these verses in context would give one no reason to assume Jesus was speaking of baptism, unless one was looking to read into the passage a preconceived idea or theology. To automatically read baptism into this scripture simply because it mentions “water” is unwarranted. Anytime water is mentioned you guys think of how you can tie it to water baptism.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#26 Jan 31, 2013
New Guy wrote:
<quoted text>
Who said Christian baptism was our workmanship? I certainly did not. And neither does the scripture. God is the one at work in baptism. Not us. Titus 3 certainly is Christian baptism.
You are smart to try and separate yourself from the works aspect, but the coc theology schools have trained you guys how to deny baptismal regeneration by packaging it differently, same results though. This reminds me how General motors would have cars like the Toyota matrix and repackage it with the name Pontiac vibe as though it was a completely different car.
New Guy

Morehead, KY

#27 Jan 31, 2013
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
John 3:3-7 and John 3:22–30 are completely different settings.
Reading these verses in context would give one no reason to assume Jesus was speaking of baptism, unless one was looking to read into the passage a preconceived idea or theology. To automatically read baptism into this scripture simply because it mentions “water” is unwarranted. Anytime water is mentioned you guys think of how you can tie it to water baptism.
No, no reason at all. Let's just forget about water and the Spirit, being born again. Let's forget that in baptism we are raised to walk in newness of life, and receive the Spirit. No similarities there. Let's also conveniently pretend that the rest of John 3 has nothing to do with the first part. Let's also ignore John's testimony of 1 John about the witnesses of the water, the Spirit, and the blood. Yeah, we have no reason to assume baptism is being talked about.

Anytime we bring up baptism evangelicals break their necks to make sure that water baptism isn't really what's being talked about. Pot meet kettle.
New Guy

Morehead, KY

#28 Jan 31, 2013
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
You are smart to try and separate yourself from the works aspect, but the coc theology schools have trained you guys how to deny baptismal regeneration by packaging it differently, same results though. This reminds me how General motors would have cars like the Toyota matrix and repackage it with the name Pontiac vibe as though it was a completely different car.
I don't have to do anything. The scripture shows who does the work in baptism, and it ain't us.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#29 Jan 31, 2013
New Guy wrote:
<quoted text>
I don't have to do anything. The scripture shows who does the work in baptism, and it ain't us.
So how do you get water baptized, does God do it, or does man have to do it all? In reality Spirit baptism is entirely the work of God without any help from man. This is the only way we can honestly say that regeneration is the work of God.
Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

#30 Feb 1, 2013
So because someone explains one verse of Jesus about baptism, what about all the others - especially the great commission at the end of Matthew - followed closely by Acts 2:38,39 and Acts 3:22,23?

Care to cast those aside as well? The talk sounds more like Pharisee's than CoC - taking a direct statement from God and then reasoning why it really doesn't apply or mean what the most simple reading of it should be....

You need to go lighter on the CoC!:-)
Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

#31 Feb 1, 2013
(not to mention repenting of hypocracy)
calvin

Axton, VA

#32 Feb 1, 2013
You are missing a crucial point. The wording of Jesus literally says you must be born FROM ABOVE. This water and Spirit isn’t a birth from earth it comes directly from above, a reference to God birthing the lost soul. If as some here say Jesus means water baptism Nicodemus wouldn’t have been confused because as someone sated on here, he was familiar with Johns baptism and other washings. Nicodemus was confused by the saying of Jesus. Jesus said this birth was heavenly, from above, an act of God. He then compares this new birth to the wind blowing which again has the new birth totally of God, from above. This verse is not about baptism at all. Nicodemus would have not been confused if that was true seeing he knew full well about baptisms and washings.
calvin

Axton, VA

#33 Feb 1, 2013
Titus 3:5 is a spiritual washing FROM ABOVE not a washing in water that results in regeneration. The context isn’t about water baptism at all.
calvin

Axton, VA

#34 Feb 1, 2013
James 1:18 - In the exercise of HIS WILL He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we would be a kind of first fruits among His creatures.

The Greek word here is the same which in James 1:15 is rendered "bringeth forth," - "sin bringeth forth death." The word is used here in contrast with that, and the object is to refer to a different kind of production, or bringing forth, under the agency of sin, and the agency of God. The meaning here is, that we owe the beginning of our spiritual life to God.

John 1:13 - Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. This is so plain yet some still desire to proclaim they assist God in their salvation.

John 3, Jesus speaks of a rebirth from ABOVE, not a birth of water baptism ON EARTH but a Spiritual birth from God. The Greek word for BORN AGAIN means FROM ABOVE not birthed from earthy water. Titus 3:5 also speaks of this Godly work of regeneration. Notice from John 3 that this occurs IN HEAVEN not on earth. The new birth is from ABOVE and the place where God regenerates the sinner.
New Guy

Morehead, KY

#35 Feb 1, 2013
Perhaps Calvin the answer is that when a person submits themselves to baptism God is working during that act. The person is born again spiritually, forgiven of sins, receives the Holy Spirit, added to the church, etc. The person being saved is on earth, so however one is born again it has to be from heaven to begin with. John says the Spirit, the water and the blood bear witness on earth. Perhaps baptism is the place all three of these elements come together.
TheWiseMan

San Antonio, TX

#36 Feb 1, 2013
Matthew, Chapter 3, 011: I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear:

he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire

DID JESUS BAPTIZE YOU

with the Holy Ghost, and with fire?
TheWiseMan

San Antonio, TX

#37 Feb 1, 2013
You people are lost.
TheWiseMan

San Antonio, TX

#38 Feb 1, 2013
Not even close.
nobody

Nicholasville, KY

#39 Feb 2, 2013
John 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."
John3:4 Nicodemus *said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born, can he?"

Why is there any discussion about what Nicodemus meant? His response leaves no doubt his understanding is of the womb. Jesus does not correct him but chastises him(about being a teacher and the scriptures then goes on to explain he must be born from above.
nobody

Nicholasville, KY

#40 Feb 2, 2013
JustChristian wrote:
<quoted text>
Lets answer honestly
Also does man have a choice whether to chose God or not? Yes or No
Reference so you can get the correct answer. Joshua
Joshua 24:15
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
15 If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the Lord, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.
Your credibility is slipping when you dont answer.
What I see with CoC preachers, although I know you claim otherwise is they have their questions prepared to trip someone up (at least in their mind) and have not interest in the truth,whatsoever. My opinion is that if you were interested in truth, there would be more of a discussion with answers, than trick questions and confusion. Unfortuantly this is the MO of several Christian denominations, JW's, Pentacostals, CoC, and so on. Jesus spoke in parables to keep some from knowing but I believe the gospel was intended to be explained in a simple manner by fellow believers.

God chooses you, then YOU can choose whether you will follow or obey God. After God has choosen you, I believe if you choose to not follow him, life will be most miserable.

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