Church of christ on obeying commands-...
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New Guy

Morehead, KY

#21 Dec 31, 2012
Barnsweb wrote:
The apostle John summed it up well. We are not to fellowship those who don't uphold the doctrine of Jesus Christ - and this is not just that Jesus is Christ - per the gospel accounts, the good news and call for repentance to prepare for the Kingdom of God is the doctrine He taught, which goes right along with the sermon on the mount, great commission, promise of God and the warning from Moses when Peter idenfified who 'that Prophet' was.
Most just muse over arguing about what moment a person is 'saved' instead of thinking they have to be hearers and doers of the words that lead to eternal life.
Let me ask you a question BW, and this also isn't to start an argument, get anyone angry, etc. But Bobby just brought it up so let's go with it.

You obviously feel that the command to keep the Sabbath is still in effect, not done away with. You stated that, as John says, we are not to fellowship with anyone who does not uphold the doctrine of Christ. All that being said, do you "have fellowship" with those who don't observe the Sabbath? Do you consider those of us who assemble on Sundays lost?

I have been reading some Messianic Jewish sites, and other Sabbatarian sites, and the consensus seems to be that Sunday worshippers are lost. Just wondering your opinion.
New Guy

Morehead, KY

#22 Dec 31, 2012
Bobby wrote:
When it boils down to where the rubber meets the road both new guy and barnsweb will overlook the other one's position on this. However both believe that we are saved by keeping commands/law/rules. The only difference they have in which laws/commands/rules actually count toward salvation. They can agree fully on the command for water baptism except when the denominations obey it, they both turn it around and make it a faith issue. Go figure.
If we are to be saved by laws/commandsrules doesn't it make sense that we must perfectly keep everyone of them.
Maybe you should explain how law/commands/rules are one in the same. While you're at it, explain to me how I believe we are saved by laws, rules, and commands. Here's a better idea-explain how you're saved without obeying a command, law, or rule.
Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

#23 Jan 1, 2013
New Guy wrote:
<quoted text>
Let me ask you a question BW, and this also isn't to start an argument, get anyone angry, etc. But Bobby just brought it up so let's go with it.
You obviously feel that the command to keep the Sabbath is still in effect, not done away with. You stated that, as John says, we are not to fellowship with anyone who does not uphold the doctrine of Christ. All that being said, do you "have fellowship" with those who don't observe the Sabbath? Do you consider those of us who assemble on Sundays lost?
I have been reading some Messianic Jewish sites, and other Sabbatarian sites, and the consensus seems to be that Sunday worshippers are lost. Just wondering your opinion.
Knowing my opinion holds no weight, but may be of interest, I'll tell you what I believe, but what I believe about the topic must first be well centered in the teachings of the Annointed one if there is any truth in it:

I cannot say non Sabbath keepers are lost. The only sin that we are told is unforgivable is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

Regarding the law, He said those who do not keep Torah and teach others to also NOT keep the smaller things of the Torah will be called least in the kingdom of heaven. So right there we can see that there will be those IN the kingdom of heaven that are at a lower level than those who DID keep and teach Torah.

In Revelation we find the greatest blessing to those who sang the song of Moses and the song of the Lamb - those who kept Torah and the Testimony of Jesus Christ. The two go hand in hand and there is no conflict between the Law, the Testimony, or the Doctrine and Commandments of God as taught by the Son. As said on my web site, surely the teachings of Jesus Christ are the motherlode of grace and truth.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#24 Jan 1, 2013
New Guy wrote:
<quoted text>
Maybe you should explain how law/commands/rules are one in the same. While you're at it, explain to me how I believe we are saved by laws, rules, and commands. Here's a better idea-explain how you're saved without obeying a command, law, or rule.
God told Adam he could freely eat the fruit of every tree in the garden except one—the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. If Adam ate from this tree, God told him, he would die (Genesis 2:16,17).

If Adam could not keep that one command, what was it's purpose?

The law was given as a schoolmaster:So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith.

The ten commandments were given and have been broken by all of us. If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

There was only one man who has ever kept the commandments, and it ain't one of us!

Paul clearly states that the seed promised is Jesus Christ.16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. Scripture does not say “and to seeds,” meaning many people, but “and to your seed,” meaning one person, who is Christ. 17 What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise. 18 For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on the promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise.

Then in verse 21 he declares:For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. 22 But Scripture has locked up everything under the control of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.

And now many here want to hang all their hopes on the one command for obedience to water baptism. It just does not fit with the picture of grace that the one man (Jesus) who being without sin died to pay the debt for our disobedience. The only thing sinful man has to offer to God is his faith and from there God makes our faith grow.

But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen.

We ought always to thank God for you, brothers, and rightly so, because your faith is growing more and more, and the love every one of you has for each other is increasing.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#25 Jan 1, 2013
So my question what is the promise of God? Is is water baptism or is it Christ himself?

Do we gain access to Christ by water or by faith?

Does one broken command make us a sinner? Does one act of obedience to a command save us? If our disobedience separated us from God how can out one act of physical obedience reverse our penalty of death. But Christ completely obeyed God in everything even unto death! The power of our salvation lies in Jesus obedience not ours. The one command given to Adam was not from the law of Moses but he became a sinner by breaking it.
Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

#26 Jan 1, 2013
Why did Jesus that we will be judged by His words? And why did He also say to teach His immersed followers to keep the same commandments given to the original disciples? He said what He taught is the doctrine and will of God, and that His followers will keep His words.

And Paul, your 'faith father' said those disciples added nothing to his faith - it's like he discounted anything they had to say!

Maybe Paul will save you? Why not start a Church of Saint Paul, since you believe His every word?:-)
New Guy

Morehead, KY

#27 Jan 1, 2013
Barnsweb wrote:
<quoted text>
Knowing my opinion holds no weight, but may be of interest, I'll tell you what I believe, but what I believe about the topic must first be well centered in the teachings of the Annointed one if there is any truth in it:
I cannot say non Sabbath keepers are lost. The only sin that we are told is unforgivable is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.
Regarding the law, He said those who do not keep Torah and teach others to also NOT keep the smaller things of the Torah will be called least in the kingdom of heaven. So right there we can see that there will be those IN the kingdom of heaven that are at a lower level than those who DID keep and teach Torah.
In Revelation we find the greatest blessing to those who sang the song of Moses and the song of the Lamb - those who kept Torah and the Testimony of Jesus Christ. The two go hand in hand and there is no conflict between the Law, the Testimony, or the Doctrine and Commandments of God as taught by the Son. As said on my web site, surely the teachings of Jesus Christ are the motherlode of grace and truth.
Thank you for your opinion. Like you said, opinions carry no weight but the word of the Lord does. I believe this to be an excellent response, and one full of grace- although others will not see that.
New Guy

Morehead, KY

#28 Jan 1, 2013
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
God told Adam he could freely eat the fruit of every tree in the garden except one—the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. If Adam ate from this tree, God told him, he would die (Genesis 2:16,17).
If Adam could not keep that one command, what was it's purpose?
The law was given as a schoolmaster:So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith.
The ten commandments were given and have been broken by all of us. If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
There was only one man who has ever kept the commandments, and it ain't one of us!
Paul clearly states that the seed promised is Jesus Christ.16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. Scripture does not say “and to seeds,” meaning many people, but “and to your seed,” meaning one person, who is Christ. 17 What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise. 18 For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on the promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise.
Then in verse 21 he declares:For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. 22 But Scripture has locked up everything under the control of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.
And now many here want to hang all their hopes on the one command for obedience to water baptism. It just does not fit with the picture of grace that the one man (Jesus) who being without sin died to pay the debt for our disobedience. The only thing sinful man has to offer to God is his faith and from there God makes our faith grow.
But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen.
We ought always to thank God for you, brothers, and rightly so, because your faith is growing more and more, and the love every one of you has for each other is increasing.
*Again, the "law" we're dealing with is the law of Moses, the law of God. No argument from me about the purpose of the law, how many of us have kept it, etc.

*The problem again is this- I asked how could you be saved without obeying a command of Christ. We cannot do it, because faith or belief or "trusting Christ" is a command from the Master Himself. Not only is faith a command from Christ, but it is a work according to Jesus in John 6:28-29. And, how do we get faith according to the Scripture? Romans 10:17 says that faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. There is no possible, credible way to be saved without some kind of "work" or responsibility on our part; or without obeying a command from Christ. Does that mean we're "working our way to heaven"? No!

The whole point- Bobby, your definition of "law" is the problem. If you say, "no man can keep the law and be saved", I agree 100%. But when you say that keeping the commands that Jesus and the apostles give us in order to be saved are "law", so "obviously we can't and don't have to do them TO be saved", then we disagree 1000%.

True-law doesn't impart life. But-Jesus said "The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life."
New Guy

Morehead, KY

#29 Jan 1, 2013
Barnsweb wrote:
Why did Jesus that we will be judged by His words? And why did He also say to teach His immersed followers to keep the same commandments given to the original disciples? He said what He taught is the doctrine and will of God, and that His followers will keep His words.
And Paul, your 'faith father' said those disciples added nothing to his faith - it's like he discounted anything they had to say!
Maybe Paul will save you? Why not start a Church of Saint Paul, since you believe His every word?:-)
BW, maybe I assume incorrectly (and you know what happens when we assume), but you seem to be somewhere around the Messianic Jewish idea. I have done some searching, and I have found some websites from Messianic sources that indeed affirm Paul's status, his writings, and clear up alleged discrepancies between his words and those of Christ. Have you looked at any of those? Is it possible that Paul's teachings aren't as "out there" as you believe? Maybe another instance where we simply misunderstand?
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#30 Jan 1, 2013
Barnsweb wrote:
Why did Jesus that we will be judged by His words? And why did He also say to teach His immersed followers to keep the same commandments given to the original disciples? He said what He taught is the doctrine and will of God, and that His followers will keep His words.
And Paul, your 'faith father' said those disciples added nothing to his faith - it's like he discounted anything they had to say!
Maybe Paul will save you? Why not start a Church of Saint Paul, since you believe His every word?:-)
You could just tear out two thirds of you new testament and say "that grace stuff from that evil false apostle Paul is not in my bible".

Be careful you may be judged by the same judgement you use on others. It is clear to me from the word of God that none of us can see God by our own righteousness/works/obedience. You are welcome to try though, many have.

I hope you guys can look introspectively and see yourselves as Jesus sees us-lost sheep/sinners/disobedient needing a merciful kind and loving shepherd.

25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”

26 The disciples were even more amazed, and said to each other,“Who then can be saved?”

27 Jesus looked at them and said,“With man this is impossible, but not with God; all things are possible with God.”

Salvation is all the work of God and none from man.
Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

#31 Jan 1, 2013
New Guy wrote:
<quoted text>
BW, maybe I assume incorrectly (and you know what happens when we assume), but you seem to be somewhere around the Messianic Jewish idea. I have done some searching, and I have found some websites from Messianic sources that indeed affirm Paul's status, his writings, and clear up alleged discrepancies between his words and those of Christ. Have you looked at any of those? Is it possible that Paul's teachings aren't as "out there" as you believe? Maybe another instance where we simply misunderstand?
For me, the AENT has the answers about Paul. What he originally penned is NOT what was said per the Greek 'translations'. There are also idiomatic (sp?) phrases common to rabbinical thought that 'we' don't understand 2000 years down the road and no real background on them except limited education guesses. The 'crime' of it all is the scholarship we have counted on regarding matters of faith has long ago sold us out from the truth...the original Jesus...the gospel as first delivered. I have a lot of questions about Paul, even with the AENT, but from what I hear I'm not alone. There are those of the Netzarim who will not use anything of Paul as authoritative truth.

Look through all his letters. His writtings singularly agrandize himself, all the while espousing how humble he is. Talk about a passive/aggressive personality! Then there are the issues brought up at the web site I was reading. They were all good questions and points, and the conclusion was that he is a false apostle.

There are two final nails in his coffin of respect from my perspective:

1. Saying the Torah was nailed to the cross, and associated teachings that Bobby and others like to use.
2. That he was such a hypocrite that he turned to Rome for justice instead of facing the brethren at Jerusalem.

I regard Paul about as much as I do Joseph Smith Jr.
2.
Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

#32 Jan 1, 2013
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
You could just tear out two thirds of you new testament and say "that grace stuff from that evil false apostle Paul is not in my bible".
Be careful you may be judged by the same judgement you use on others. It is clear to me from the word of God that none of us can see God by our own righteousness/works/obedience. You are welcome to try though, many have.
I hope you guys can look introspectively and see yourselves as Jesus sees us-lost sheep/sinners/disobedient needing a merciful kind and loving shepherd.
25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”
26 The disciples were even more amazed, and said to each other,“Who then can be saved?”
27 Jesus looked at them and said,“With man this is impossible, but not with God; all things are possible with God.”
Salvation is all the work of God and none from man.
If we had the nerve to study what Jesus taught and leave Pauls words completely out of the study, we might understand the simplicity and purity that He taught.'To him who has, more will be given.''If you abide in My word, ye are My disciples indeed. And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free.'

NKJV John 8:12; "I am the light of the world. He who follows Me shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life."

AENT (Aramaic English New Testament) "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will not walk in darkness, but he will find the light of life for himself."
New Guy

Morehead, KY

#33 Jan 1, 2013
Barnsweb wrote:
<quoted text>
For me, the AENT has the answers about Paul. What he originally penned is NOT what was said per the Greek 'translations'. There are also idiomatic (sp?) phrases common to rabbinical thought that 'we' don't understand 2000 years down the road and no real background on them except limited education guesses. The 'crime' of it all is the scholarship we have counted on regarding matters of faith has long ago sold us out from the truth...the original Jesus...the gospel as first delivered. I have a lot of questions about Paul, even with the AENT, but from what I hear I'm not alone. There are those of the Netzarim who will not use anything of Paul as authoritative truth.
Look through all his letters. His writtings singularly agrandize himself, all the while espousing how humble he is. Talk about a passive/aggressive personality! Then there are the issues brought up at the web site I was reading. They were all good questions and points, and the conclusion was that he is a false apostle.
There are two final nails in his coffin of respect from my perspective:
1. Saying the Torah was nailed to the cross, and associated teachings that Bobby and others like to use.
2. That he was such a hypocrite that he turned to Rome for justice instead of facing the brethren at Jerusalem.
I regard Paul about as much as I do Joseph Smith Jr.
2.
Without getting into too many particulars here, the issue I would have at this point would be the disregard of God's providence. In other words, we would have to believe that God allowed His sacred text to be corrupted, and that a liar and false teacher wrote a large majority of Scripture. Inspired men like Peter would have had to been ignorant of Paul's character when he gave a glowing account of him.
*From what I read of Paul in my studies, I have a completely different take on his attitude than your take on it.
*I do believe that "Torah" was nailed to the cross; but I believe that that has different results than what Bobby and other evangelicals believe. With the fulfillment of the law of God, that gives way to the "law of Christ"- the teachings of Christ and the apostles. Which are binding, and the standards we are to live by. With no "change" in the law, gentiles have no hope to be included in the family of God.
*Isn't it possible Paul turned to Rome for justice because no justice would be found in Jerusalem? There was none there found for Christ.
One charge leveled against the Messianic Jews who oppose Paul is that the opposition is done from necessity, because if Paul's words are true, the "modern day Judaizers" have no leg to stand on.
My view is simply that much of the controversy over Paul is overblown, many of the arguments against him are taken out of context, and I see no reason to discredit or disregard him. Obviously, that's my opinion and only counts as such. Is it also possible there is over-reaction due to the violation of the doctrine he did teach?
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#34 Jan 2, 2013
Barnsweb wrote:
<quoted text>
If we had the nerve to study what Jesus taught and leave Pauls words completely out of the study, we might understand the simplicity and purity that He taught.'To him who has, more will be given.''If you abide in My word, ye are My disciples indeed. And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free.'
NKJV John 8:12; "I am the light of the world. He who follows Me shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life."
AENT (Aramaic English New Testament) "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will not walk in darkness, but he will find the light of life for himself."
I view the aent an that Roth guy (the author) the same way you view Paul! I do not mean to get nasty but we are miles apart in doctrine...

"But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said,'God, have mercy on me, a sinner.'

What did the other guy do? He looked at his self as a righteous do-gooder when in fact he was in poverty blind and naked. What he needed he did not want-grace/mercy...

Since: May 10

Location hidden

#35 Jan 2, 2013
Barnsweb wrote:
<quoted text>
If we had the nerve to study what Jesus taught and leave Pauls words completely out of the study, we might understand the simplicity and purity that He taught.'To him who has, more will be given.''If you abide in My word, ye are My disciples indeed. And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free.'
NKJV John 8:12; "I am the light of the world. He who follows Me shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life."
AENT (Aramaic English New Testament) "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will not walk in darkness, but he will find the light of life for himself."
Why would we want to eliminate a Holy Spirit, inspired God intended apostles writings out of our lives.

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