Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy

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SinfulSaint

Martinsville, VA

#1 Nov 8, 2012
Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Sin is the transgression of the Law. Thus, to not keep the Sabbath, is to sin.

Can anyone show when God removed the 4th commandment?
Barnsweb

Canton, OH

#2 Nov 8, 2012
Yeah, I've been waiting on that reply for a while too:-)
SinfulSaint

Martinsville, VA

#3 Nov 9, 2012
I be darn; we agree on something.

I also see not one soul dared to show where the Fourth Commandment was annulled. Anyone with some time can easily search Church History and see that the Sabbath was changed by the Romans who worshiped the SUN god. Jesus did not do away with the Fathers Sabbath as some contend. Jesus said if anyone teaches someone to break even one commandment such a one is not worthy of heaven but worthy of damnation ( paraphrased).

Jesus Himself went to the synagogue on the Sabbath, Luke 4:16, as did Paul, Acts 17:1-2; 18:4. In the Kingdom, all people will come to worship Jesus on the Sabbath, Isaiah 66:23. How can some say, then, that the Sabbath has no relevance today?

“For Moses of old time has in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath day”(Acts 15:21, KJV). This was more than ten years after Jesus’ death, and yet the Apostles were observing the seventh-day Sabbath.

“And on the Sabbath we went out of the city by a river side, where prayer was wont to be made; and we sat down, and spake unto the women which resorted thither”(Acts 16:13).

“And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three Sabbath days [three consecutive Sabbaths] reasoned with them out of the scriptures”(Acts 17:2).

“And he reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks”(Acts 18:4).

“There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God”(Hebrews 4:9).
Bobby

Mansfield, TX

#4 Nov 9, 2012
Matt 11:28 "Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest . 29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls . 30 For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."
SinfulSaint

Martinsville, VA

#5 Nov 9, 2012
What point are you making? Jesus Himself went to the synagogue on the Sabbath, Luke 4:16.
walkinginlove

Danville, VA

#6 Nov 9, 2012
And the Apostles went to the temple on the sabbath, it is part of the reason they were not assaulted when Steven was killed and the non-Jewish believers were run out of town.

I have to wonder if what is written in Romans was about this subject however since it was about what day was Holy.

What most people don't know is that all those letters written to the Church were done so because the most likely a messenger or a letter was brought to the Apostles with questions. I wish there was a record of those as it would expand on what the Apostles were really dealing with as they were replying to things.

So could it be that the Holy days in Romans 14 was a debate over the sabbath on Saturday or Sunday?
SinfulSaint

Martinsville, VA

#7 Nov 9, 2012
HISTORIC QUOTES CONCERNING THE CONTINUING OBSERVANCE OF SABBATH

"The primitive Christians had a great veneration for the Sabbath, and spent the day in devotion and sermons. And it is not to be doubted but they derived this practice from the Apostles themselves, as appears by several scriptures to the purpose." – Dialogues on the Lord's Day, p. 189. London: 1701, By Dr. T.H. Morer (A Church of England divine).

"The Gentile Christians observed also the Sabbath," Gieseler's "Church History," Vol.1, ch. 2, par. 30, 93.

"The primitive Christians did keep the Sabbath of the Jews;...therefore the Christians, for a long time together, did keep their conventions upon the Sabbath, in which some portions of the law were read: and this continued till the time of the Laodicean council." "The Whole Works" of Jeremy Taylor, Vol. IX,p. 416 (R. Heber's Edition, Vol XII, p. 416).

"It is certain that the ancient Sabbath did remain and was observed by the Christians of the East Church, above three hundred years after our Saviour's death." "A Learned Treatise of the Sabbath," p. 77

"The seventh-day Sabbath was...solemnized by Christ, the Apostles, and primitive Christians, till the Laodicean Council (364 AD) did in manner quite abolish the observations of it." Dissertation on the Lord's Day, pp. 33, 34

"From the apostles' time until the council of Laodicea, which was about the year 364, the holy observance of the Jews' Sabbath continued, as may be proved out of many authors: yea, notwithstanding the decree of the council against it." "Sunday a Sabbath." John Ley, p.163.

"Down even to the fifth century the observance of the Jewish Sabbath was continued in the Christian church." -- Ancient Christianity Exemplified, Lyman Coleman, ch. 26, sec. 2, p. 527.
SinfulSaint

Martinsville, VA

#8 Nov 9, 2012
ACTUAL QUOTES FROM THE CHURCH FATHERS

The observations of these historians are seen to be correct by the following quotes from those who actually lived during these early days of the Church.

Ignatius [107 AD]– "Let us therefore no longer keep the Sabbath after the Jewish manner, and rejoice in days of idleness; But let every one of you keep the Sabbath after a spiritual manner, rejoicing in meditation on the law, not in relaxation of the body, admiring the workmanship of God, and not eating things prepared the day before, nor using lukewarm drinks, and walking within a prescribed space, nor finding delight in dancing and plaudits which have no sense in them." Ignatius - To the Magnesians chapter 9 (about 107 AD)

Clement of Alexandra [153 AD]– " Thus the Lord did not hinder from doing good while keeping the Sabbath; but allowed us to communicate of those divine mysteries, and of that holy light, to those who are able to receive them." Clement of Alexandria - Stromata, Bk 1, Chap. 1

Oxyrhynchus Papyri [225 AD]– "Except ye make the sabbath a real sabbath ye shall not see the Father." The oxyrhynchus Papyri, pt,1, p.3, Logion 2, verso 4-11 (London Offices of the Egypt Exploration Fund, 1898).

Constitutions of the Holy Apostles [250AD]– "Thou shalt observe the Sabbath, on account of Him who ceased from His work of creation, but ceased not from His work of providence: it is a rest for meditation of the law, not for idleness of the hands." "The Anti-Nicene Fathers," Vol 7,p. 413. From "Constitutions of the Holy Apostles," a document of the 3rd and 4th Centuries.

Archaleus [277AD]–“Again, as to the assertion that the Sabbath has been abolished, we deny that He has abolished it plainly; for He was Himself also Lord of the Sabbath.”Archaleus Acts of Disputation

"it is fitting for whoever is righteous among the saints to keep also the festival of the Sabbath. There remaineth therefore a sabbatismus, that is, a keeping of the Sabbath, to the people of God (Hebrews 4:9)." "Homily on Numbers 23," par.4, in Migne, "Patrologia Graeca," Vol. 12,cols. 749, 750.

Athanasius [circa 290AD]– "On the Sabbath day we gathered together, not being infected with Judaism, for we do not lay hold of false sabbaths, but we come on the Sabbath to worship Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath," Athanasius, Homilia de Semente, Sec. 1, in MPG, Vol. 28 Col. 144, Greek.

Socrates [439 AD]--: "For although almost all churches throughout the world celebrate the sacred mysteries on the Sabbath of every week, yet the Christians of Alexandria and at Rome, on account of some ancient tradition, have ceased to do this. The Egyptians in the neighborhood of Alexandria, and the inhabitants of Thebais, hold their religious assemblies on the Sabbath, but do not participate of the mysteries in the manner usual among Christians in general: for after having eaten and satisfied themselves with food of all kinds, in the evening making their offerings they partake of the mysteries." (Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers. Second Series, Vol. 2, p. 132.)

Sozomen [460 A.D.]– "The people of Constantinople, and almost everywhere, assemble together on the Sabbath, as well as on the first day of the week, which custom is never observed at Rome or at Alexandria. There are several cities and villages in Egypt where, contrary to the usage established elsewhere, the people meet together on Sabbath evenings, and, although they have dined previously, partake of the mysteries." (Ecc. History, Book 7, chap. 19. Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers. Second Series, Vol. 2, p. 390.)

*NOTE: The testimonies of Socrates and Sozomen are very important because these men lived in the fifth century, and had access to all the existing material, and yet they bear testimony to the fact that it was the almost universal custom of the church at that time to assemble on the Sabbath.
Bobby

Mansfield, TX

#11 Nov 9, 2012
SinfulSaint wrote:
What point are you making? Jesus Himself went to the synagogue on the Sabbath, Luke 4:16.
My point is that Jesus is our sabbath rest. The sabbath originally was for the rest of the physical body. Jesus is where we find rest for our souls.

"for anyone who enters God's rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from his".
Barnsweb

Canton, OH

#12 Nov 9, 2012
Great quotes there SS. There are still sects in the East and Africa that still observe the Sabbath and have never bowed the knee to RCC decree to change the commandment of God. Some of the best studies I've done on the Sabbath were with SDA, which is where 'From Sabbath to Sunday' was noted for reference. It's actually Catholic doctrine that proof of Protestants subjection to the RCC and Pope is that the only authority to change from the Sabbath resides with Papal decree that they obey:-)

I'd like to hear Johnny Robertson or any number of other Christians try to wiggle out of the well founded arguments from the author's Doctoral Thesis.

Oh, and by the way, Jesus actually didn't damn anyone to hell over missing a commandment of God - but He did say they would be LEAST in the kingdom of heaven.
(from the Matthew listing)
5:17; "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets."
5:17; "I did not come to destroy but to fulfill." (The Law and Prophets)
5:18; "; till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled."
5:19; "Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven;"
5:20; "For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven."

Didn't realize the Laodocian connection existed. I'll have to double check the letter Jesus wrote to them in Revelation again...
Bobby

Mansfield, TX

#13 Nov 9, 2012
5:20; "For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven."

The best righteousness of man on his best day is not enough, it is still imperfect.

But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.
Barnsweb

Canton, OH

#14 Nov 9, 2012
Bobby wrote:
5:20; "For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven."
The best righteousness of man on his best day is not enough, it is still imperfect.
But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.
Bobby, you quote Paul and his standard for perfection as a standard, but did Jesus ever give such a statement? Can you point to one of His lessons that has the same basic message? Didn't He know our humanity and call us to repent to do what God said. John was the beloved disciple and he recognized that perfection is the goal, but the reality is we are humans who start as spiritual infants and have to progress through our lives to become what Jesus said He wants us to become. This requires honesty as we look to the standards He gave, confession as we fall short or miss the mark, knowing that so long as we WILL to do His will, we are covered by the blessings and promises He has given us.

Again, you quoted Paul on a specific doctrine. Please show me where Jesus taught the same doctrine.

If you can't, perhaps you'll start to hear what Jesus actually said and realize His message is the true one.
Barnsweb

Canton, OH

#15 Nov 9, 2012
The Scibes and Pharisees were notoriously hypocritical and only righteous in their own eyes and demanded obedience to their man made rules over the rules of the very God they claimed to worship. So Jesus call to better righteousness than they had was not such a high standard as Paul imagined. He was a Pharisee, and I can see his twisted recounting of the Law and Gospel.
Barnsweb

Canton, OH

#16 Nov 9, 2012
One Disciple To Another

"This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Hear Him!" (Matt. 17:5)

Jeremiah 7: "Obey My voice, and I will be your God, and you shall be My people. And walk in all the ways that I have commanded you. Yet they did not obey or incline their ear, but followed the counsels and dictates of their evil hearts, and went backwards and not forward."

Jesus commissioned His disciples to "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." (Matt. 28:19-20) As He said to Nicodemus, "And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen; that they have been done in God."

Matt. 11: 27-29; "All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him. Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light."

As John said in one of his letters (2 John 6-10):

"This is the commandment, that as you have heard from the beginning, you should walk in it. For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an anti-Christ. Look to yourselves, that you do not lose those things we worked for, but that we may receive a full reward. Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into your house nor greet him, for he who greets him shares in his evil deeds."
Barnsweb

Canton, OH

#17 Nov 9, 2012
So what do the gospel accounts say is His doctrine? Is the doctrine of Christ that He came in the flesh, or is the doctrine of Christ also what He taught? Matthew 7:28 is a comment made by the people who heard Jesus immediately after His teaching of building our life upon hearing and doing what He said. This record says: "And so it was, when Jesus had ended these saying, that the people were astonished at His teaching (KJV uses 'doctrine'), for He taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes." Matthew 22:33, just after His saying 'God is not the God of the dead, but of the living' is 'And when the multitudes heard this, they were astonished at His teaching (KJV uses 'doctrine'). To make the point further are additional accounts from the gospels that you can look up if you want to verify the fact: Mark 1:23,27; 4:2; 11:18, 12:28; Luke 4:32; John 7:16,17; John 18:19. Consider the translation you are using for study. The KJV uses 'doctrine' and the NKJV uses 'teaching', and these mean pretty much the same thing. The issue is the importance of what Jesus taught as being authoritative, and He claimed it was not His teaching, but the words God gave Him to give to us. John 17 is a good focused study about 'the word' which Jesus gave and His disciples kept; 6-24:

"I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. Now they have known that all things which You have given Me are from You. For I have given to them the words which You have given Me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came forth from You; and they have believed that You sent Me.

"I pray for them. I do not pray for the world, but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours. And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine, and I am glorified in them. Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You, Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are. While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. But now I come to You, and these things I speak in the world, that they may have My joy fulfilled in themselves. I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one. They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth. As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified by the truth."

"I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word, that they all may be one, as You Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just a We are one. I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me."
Barnsweb

Canton, OH

#18 Nov 9, 2012
Jeremiah 7: "Obey My voice, and I will be your God, and you shall be My people. And walk in all the ways that I have commanded you. Yet they did not obey or incline their ear, but followed the counsels and dictates of their evil hearts, and went backwards and not forward."

Jesus commissioned His disciples to "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." (Matt. 28:19-20) As He said to Nicodemus, "And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen; that they have been done in God."

Matt. 11: 27-29; "All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him. Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light."

Jesus said to come unto Him, not Paul, or me for that matter:-)
Barnsweb

Canton, OH

#19 Nov 9, 2012
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
My point is that Jesus is our sabbath rest. The sabbath originally was for the rest of the physical body. Jesus is where we find rest for our souls.
"for anyone who enters God's rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from his".
Yes, and unless we take His yoke upon us and learn of and from Him, we are missing much of that Sabbath rest that is in Christ.
Barnsweb

Canton, OH

#20 Nov 10, 2012
Bobby, how many Churches in your area practice Sabbath Day worship? I've searched out those in Central California and attended each. There are: Seventh Day Adventist, Seventh Day Church of God and pardon my forgetfulness, but the remnant of the World Wide Church of God, the name has changed and I just don't recall what it is now. Anyway, have you ever attended one of these, or others, to see what their take is on the gospel? And more important, have you ever attended and received personal knowledge of how hard and difficult it is to keep the Sabbath Day? Can't say it's any harder to worship on Sabbath than it is the First Day of the week. After all, it's just a day of the week, but it is the Sabbath that God said we are to keep in honor if His creation of the world and all that is in it, His love and provision for all of mankind, and yes, that Jesus not only is Lord of the Sabbath - He is the fulfillent of it as well.

Which Sabbath keeping Church do you think I should attend if I desire to do the will of God and follow Jesus Christ?
Bobby

Mansfield, TX

#21 Nov 10, 2012
Great questions. There really are not that many sabbath churches anywhere in the usa compared to others. If you have attended so many of them why have you yet to find a church home?

And yes, I have been to the seventh day Adventist churches, in fact very recently. They are wonderful people with a great value system. Paul Harvey is their best poster child, he is/was loved by everyone.

In reference to the armstrong churches, I have followed their demise. They have turned from their former belief system and have embraced traditional evangelical doctrine.

In my area the seventh day adventist church has its southwestern headquarters in Bureleson tx. In the small nearby town of keene they have their own grocery stores that caters to their vegetarian diet. I lived in Burleson and have been in Keene many many times, and have shopped in their grocery stores.

They, like the churches of Christ are wonderful people and both practice legalism. Oh, I was once a member of the coc while we lived in burleson.

And yes, the dietary laws can be very difficult to keep. The Post cereal company was founded by a member of the Adventist Church. The post cereals are my favorites by the way. My Mom spent a month in a nursing home founded by the Seventh day Adventist, we chose it over the competitors.

My Friend Rolaant McKenzie wrote these articles. I first met him in a coc chat room years ago.

http://www.gospeloutreach.net/testimony.html

http://www.gospeloutreach.net/gospel.html

If you desire to do the will of God you must first love the Cross of Jesus and accept his mercy-depend upon his works as full payment for your sins, not your own works.
Bobby

Mansfield, TX

#22 Nov 10, 2012
Garner Ted Armstrong the son of Herbert Armstrong split with his father and started his own sabbath church. One of my cousins left the coc and joined this church. The headquarters are in Tyler Texas. They are all but gone these days. They only have very small churches, the one my cousin is part of has only 8 members left. He is still married to his coc wife. They live in the same house but their relationship stinks. His mom is here at my house as right now, she is coc also.

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