Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#201 Feb 1, 2013
Barnsweb wrote:
Added note: The 'eye for an eye' of the OT was not taken literally and restitution was made - not vengence. Do you think Jesus was teaching literal eye or hand be cut off - or was He addressing the importance of not sinning in a comparative way, telling us how serious sin is?
Care to find fault with that too?:-)
You are helping to make my point. Have you reached the point where you realize that man is a hopeless sinner because the law has killed him-condemned him.

I find it interesting that when the law was given to Moses 3000 people died that day. On the day the spirit was given 3000 people were saved.

"Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter kills, but the spirit gives life".

"But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead where in we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter".

Jesus made this possible by fulfilling the righteous demands of the law, that we might live a new life through the spirit, having been set free from the condemnation of the law.

You are probably thinking "the letter" refers to someone not using the law properly. But, the law was given to bring us to Christ, not to make us righteous by our keeping it. Why, because all of us have broken the commandments/sinned- thus we all became separated from God. The law did that to reveal the righteousness of God and that we were lost-outside the realm of redemption until Christ paid our sin debt on the cross.

This is why the great men of God were reckoned as righteous until Jesus paid their penalty for their sin. God's original plan of grace has not failed.

Having said all of that the law still stands as our guide for righteous living but it no longer condemns those who are in Christ.
Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

#202 Feb 1, 2013
The words Jesus spoke are spirit and life. Yes?

The Spirit testifies of Jesus Christ. Yes?

We are to be hearers and doers of His word. Yes?

Are we to live without the words of Jesus if it is by His very words that we will be judged? No?

The Spirit and the Word and the blood agree. Yes?

So the Spirit and the Word agree, and we agree in doing those things, this is what Jesus taught. Yes?

I've told you many times, none of us is perfect, as you've told me the same thing - taunting as though I don't acknowledge the fact. But you seem to be using that as an excuse from being a hearer and doer of what He taught - that's what I hear?:-)

He's the one who gave the great commission and talked about discipleship to Him, immersion into His name, and keeping His commandments - the same one the Apostles gave us of record - and Paul was not one of those twelve - that's for sure. I know you can't prove he was. So give it up and believe. At least agree with what the gospel is - according to Moses, the Prophets and Psalms and the original disciples of Jesus said it is:-)
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#203 Feb 1, 2013
Barnsweb said:
I've told you many times, none of us is perfect, as you've told me the same thing - taunting as though I don't acknowledge the fact. But you seem to be using that as an excuse from being a hearer and doer of what He taught - that's what I hear?:-)

Yes, I think you do acknowledge your sin and inability to keep the law. But what I hear you saying is that the law is still required by God for redemption-not keeping the whole law but at least a certain number of them with the goal of keeping all of them. That is a performance doctrine which is foriegn to the reason for the gospel. The law is not the gospel. Denigrating Paul does not help you.
Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

#204 Feb 1, 2013
Study what Jesus said about it. Take it up with Him, not me.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#205 Feb 2, 2013
God used to be a man on another planet,(Mormon Doctrine, p. 321; Joseph Smith, Times and Seasons, vol. 5, p. 613-614; Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses, vol. 2, p. 345; Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 333).

"The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s..." (D&C 130:22).

God is in the form of a man,(Joseph Smith, Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p. 3).

"God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens!!!... We have imagined that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea and take away the veil, so that you may see," (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 345).

God the Father had a Father,(Joseph Smith, History of the Church, vol. 6, p. 476; Heber C. Kimball, Journal of Discourses, vol. 5, p. 19; Milton Hunter, First Council of the Seventy, Gospel through the Ages, p. 104-105).

God resides near a star called Kolob,(Pearl of Great Price, p. 34-35; Mormon Doctrine, p. 428).

God had sexual relations with Mary to make the body of Jesus,(Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 4, 1857, p. 218; vol. 8, p. 115).- This one is disputed among many Mormons and not always 'officially' taught and believed. Nevertheless, Young, the 2nd prophet of the Mormon church taught it.

"Therefore we know that both the Father and the Son are in form and stature perfect men; each of them possesses a tangible body ... of flesh and bones." (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 38).

The true gospel was lost from the earth. Mormonism is its restoration,(Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 182-185.)

Consists of laws and ordinances: "As these sins are the result of individual acts it is just that forgiveness for them should be conditioned on individual compliance with prescribed requirements --'obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel,'" (Articles of Faith, p. 79)

Does anyone see a resemblance to the restoration movement? Orson Pratt once preached in the church of Christ as did other mormon leaders. The restoration movement believed the gospel was lost and they restored it.
Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

#206 Feb 2, 2013
I'd imagine is Satan was going to send a grand delusion that was so close to the truth, yet so far from the faith of 'believe that I am He', it could well be Mormonism - for the very reasons you site above. I'm VERY familiar with errent LDS doctrine - perhaps more than most anti-LDS excepting Richard Abanes, who wrote 'One Nation Under Gods'. When I came up with my web site, in fact, one of the primary motivations was to outline what LDS believe about Jesus Christ that is in oppossition to what the Bible teaches.

What if they have a true principle, but the shift was made to obscure the real truth of God?

The shift came in the Book of Mormon where Jesus is about to leave. He gave the followers a smidgen of the Sermon on the Mount, tells the twelve a few more things that were said to everyone in the Bible (with a few slantings, as Sidney Rigdon was the real author of the book), and then tells the people to do whatever the twelve tell them to do - instead of do whatever He had taught in the first place.

That has lead to much untruths, as you noted above. The founding doctrines did not contain any of the above quotes, and Mormonism started with the primary shift of 'follow the apostles' instead of the actual direction of 'follow the Savior' in all things.

If you study what Jesus actually taught, the inescapable conclusion of what He taught is actually closer to Mormonism than Evangelical Christianity.

One thing I'd planned to do is write the ultimate anti-LDS book - but then who would buy it if it didn't espouse common Protestant beliefs?
Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

#207 Feb 2, 2013
If you know the web site where you can look at web sites as they existed in the past, you can check out my web site to see the last page link had to do with what Jesus taught in the book of Mormon vs the Bible.

http://archive.org/web/web.php

http://www.onediscipletoanother.org
Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

#208 Feb 2, 2013
Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

#209 Feb 2, 2013
Looks like they took it out...not there anymore.

Anyway, in the Bible He gave hundreds of commandments - in the book of Mormon there are only about fourty matches out of almost 80. The rest is made up by their 'prophets' and is rank false doctrine. Thankfully, they no longer teach the worst falsehoods you noted. AND fyi, the quotes from Pratt about LDS doctrine and God are not and have never been LDS doctrine - in fact, Brigham Young made him recant and try to get all the books back and destroyed - that's why original copies of 'The Seer' cost so much.

It shows LDS how ignorant people are when they don't even know what they accuse them of is a false accusation. It doesn't take much of that for them to just turn 'Christians' off and not hear them - being justified that they are making false claims.
Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

#210 Feb 2, 2013
And that comment isn't directed at your exact quotes, as none of them are from 'The Seer', but enough have been made in the past, and present, that they have ammo to reject those who try to correct them.

That's why my goal with them is to get them to investigate what Jesus taught in the Bible, and take that as important as what they have in their BoM, D&C, and hope they come to reject the POGP, BOA and Book of Moses. Those are damnable books.
Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

#211 Feb 2, 2013
But I do find it very curious that when I told you to take your gripe up with Jesus and see what He taught that you responded with an attack on LDS.

What do LDS have to do with what I said?:-)
Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

#212 Feb 2, 2013
All I can think of is LDS teaching that grace fills the gap 'after doing all you can do', as though grace is found only after we do our part.

I see Scripture teaching it is first grace, not after all we can do, and that it ends with grace and that grace is interspersed throughout each day and moment - but that grace counts towards those who believe God and seek to do His will, as in 'seek ye first the kingdom of God', and if we aren't really seeking to do His will, but wanting to cash in our 'get out of hell = free grace card', that this is not on the narrow path taught by Jesus Christ, nor any apostle, including Paul.
New Guy

Morehead, KY

#213 Feb 2, 2013
As far as the restoration idea goes, I personally believe Jesus when He said that the gates of Help shall not prevail against the church. The gospel and the church never needed restored, as they have been here all along.

The other thing Bobby noted was how it was mentioned that man is forgiven by the law and ordinances of the gospel. While it is true we are not saved by the law and are simply condemned by it, it is wrong to say that we are not under law. We are under the law of Christ, the perfect law of liberty, or the gospel. We are to follow the word of Christ and the teachings of the apostles. And yes, the forgiveness of sins does depend on what those sources tell us to do for them.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#214 Feb 2, 2013
Sidney Rigdon was Alexander campbell's right hand man.

My point for posting this has been to tie the restoration movement to all it's founders. All of them follow some sort of law based regeneration system, each of them have different laws/rules that are required. They are the most divided bunch on the planet, with each of them believing they alone have restored the one true church.

New guy is right when he says "The gospel and the church never needed restored, as they have been here all along".

Even though he said that, I wonder if he could show us how to identify the true church that has existed un-inetrupted since the first century and gives examples of that church and their practices/doctrine during the time before the supposed restoration period started.

The coc fellows (johnny and Heath's bunch) are continually trying to prove that the coc has always been that one true church. If that is true, why was there a restoration in the first place and why can't we find one in (let's say the 12th century)?
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#215 Feb 2, 2013
If the one true church is founded on or based on law, then where is that group who has the formula 100% correct? That is always based on the conjecture of those who choose to follow their own devised scheme.

Grace is the only concept that can bridge all of those gaps. There is a deep chasm between God and man and Jesus the gospel of our salvation bridges that gap with his infinite mercy, by becoming a curse for our sakes.

Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree."
New Guy

Morehead, KY

#216 Feb 2, 2013
Bobby wrote:
Sidney Rigdon was Alexander campbell's right hand man.
My point for posting this has been to tie the restoration movement to all it's founders. All of them follow some sort of law based regeneration system, each of them have different laws/rules that are required. They are the most divided bunch on the planet, with each of them believing they alone have restored the one true church.
New guy is right when he says "The gospel and the church never needed restored, as they have been here all along".
Even though he said that, I wonder if he could show us how to identify the true church that has existed un-inetrupted since the first century and gives examples of that church and their practices/doctrine ppduring the time before the supposed restoration period started.
he coc fellows (johnny and Heath's bunch) are continually trying to prove that the coc has always been that one true church. If that is true, why was there a restoration in the first place and why can't we find one in (let's say the 12th century)?
I can't show you the uninterrupted history of the church. That is something I have honestly not looked much into. I do know there are a few coc books out there that give "church history" supposedly not interrupted. I do believe that the one church has been in existence, practicing true doctrine, throughout the centuries. It may be a small bunch, but it has been there.

I think you do see "restoration" movements throughout the centuries. The RCC has persecuted "apostates" throughout history. The reformation was a rising up against the RCC and her harlot practices, but they err too far to the other extremes. The RM is like a reformation of the Reformation. Some groups have also went too far in this movement as well. All told, every group we see can be tied back to the mother of harlots and the abominations of the earth.

This is why we as individuals need to diligently search for the truth, and assemble with likeminded folks and proclaim that truth. If we are not part of His church, then it doesn't matter what group we take part in because we are lost. Remember Bobby, I personally am not a zealot for the coc. I am a zealot for His church. The two may not always be the same.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#217 Feb 2, 2013
New guy said:
This is why we as individuals need to diligently search for the truth, and assemble with likeminded folks and proclaim that truth. If we are not part of His church, then it doesn't matter what group we take part in because we are lost. Remember Bobby, I personally am not a zealot for the coc. I am a zealot for His church. The two may not always be the same.

That is why we have denominations-to assemble with like minded folks, all of which believe they are proclaiming the truth. Is there some way we can accept others as true Christians without a performance test?

I think the word church is over used as a hammer to identify what it is we are looking for. This may surprise you but I believe there are true Christians who never go to a church. I also believe that if Jesus were to return sunday morning he would find non believers in just about every church and even entire groups who are not of Christ. But I also believe that it is not our job to be church policemen. Jesus knows his own and someday we will understand that and know ourselves. You see, I believe the mormon church is a cult and even some coc are operating in cult like status, however I highly suspect there will be at least some saved people in all of them. I can say that because i believe we are saved by grace through faith and not of works. Grace is a wonderful bridge for humanity to cross the wide chasm of sin, especially when we learn to give grace as God has given to us.

Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.

But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me.

We enter his rest through the cross where Jesus made peace between us and God. Surely we can learn to make peace with our brothers in Christ. Grace is the only avenue to do that.
Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

#218 Feb 2, 2013
Bobby wrote:
Sidney Rigdon was Alexander campbell's right hand man.
My point for posting this has been to tie the restoration movement to all it's founders. All of them follow some sort of law based regeneration system, each of them have different laws/rules that are required. They are the most divided bunch on the planet, with each of them believing they alone have restored the one true church.
New guy is right when he says "The gospel and the church never needed restored, as they have been here all along".
Even though he said that, I wonder if he could show us how to identify the true church that has existed un-inetrupted since the first century and gives examples of that church and their practices/doctrine during the time before the supposed restoration period started.
The coc fellows (johnny and Heath's bunch) are continually trying to prove that the coc has always been that one true church. If that is true, why was there a restoration in the first place and why can't we find one in (let's say the 12th century)?
Wrong again. Sidney Rigdon was NOT Campbell's 'right hand man'. In fact, there was quite a friction between them. Rigdon believed strongly that Campbell did not go far enough. He was also miffed that Campbell did a bit of NT translation on his own - and I suspect the BOM was the result - Rigdon telling a whole new gospel - after all, if Campbell could change/vary the word of God - he had as much 'authority' as Campbell did:-)

Sad, but apparently true.
Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

#219 Feb 2, 2013
New Guy wrote:
<quoted text>
I can't show you the uninterrupted history of the church. That is something I have honestly not looked much into. I do know there are a few coc books out there that give "church history" supposedly not interrupted. I do believe that the one church has been in existence, practicing true doctrine, throughout the centuries. It may be a small bunch, but it has been there.
I think you do see "restoration" movements throughout the centuries. The RCC has persecuted "apostates" throughout history. The reformation was a rising up against the RCC and her harlot practices, but they err too far to the other extremes. The RM is like a reformation of the Reformation. Some groups have also went too far in this movement as well. All told, every group we see can be tied back to the mother of harlots and the abominations of the earth.
This is why we as individuals need to diligently search for the truth, and assemble with likeminded folks and proclaim that truth. If we are not part of His church, then it doesn't matter what group we take part in because we are lost. Remember Bobby, I personally am not a zealot for the coc. I am a zealot for His church. The two may not always be the same.
Perhaps "The Great Controversy" is as good a book for an brief overview of Church history as any other, as it goes beyond the Reformation Movement and the Restoration Movement - even though lacking Eastern history of the Church.
Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

#220 Feb 2, 2013
"All told, every group we see can be tied back to the mother of harlots and the abominations of the earth."

Actually not quite so. The actuality of the RCC didn't start till well after 350 AD. The Pagan infiltration started in the lifetime of the Apostles - but there have always been those who refused Pagan tradion infiltrating the faith, as well as those who rejected any influence of the RCC.

There is more historically that we DON'T know than we do know.

But we do the best we can, and yes, it's about what WE do with the word of God, rather than perpetuate errors of the 'fathers' who didn't 'abide' in what Jesus taught.

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