Obeying the Gospel

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#1
Dec 28, 2012
 
Romans 10:16 -- "But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?"

2 Thessalonians 1:8 -- "...taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ."

1 Peter 4:17 -- "For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?"

In each of these three passages, the writer speaks of those who have NOT "obeyed the gospel," and the consequences for the failure to "obey." The question at hand: "obey what?" What specifically about "Good News" demands obedience? The church of Christ answer says IN BAPTISM one obeys the Gospel. Really? Is this what OBEYING the Gospel means?

According to the Strong's Expanded Dictionary of Bible Words, Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon, and the Analytical Greek Lexicon, the word Paul uses for “OBEY” in Romans 10:16 and 2 Thessalonians 1:8 is a combination of a preposition and verb that literally means, i.e. to listen attentively, to hearken, To give ear to, thus suggesting a careful, focused listening or hearing. Paul is simply saying the fact that so many have chosen NOT to "listen attentively to" the gospel. Thus the reason he points out that Isaiah experienced the same thing when the Jews, hundreds of years before, refused to "listen to" (and thus come to believe) the words of God through the prophets –“For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?" Paul is not talking about "obeying" the gospel, he is talking about "hearing" it and understanding it. Other translations render the word differently - "heed" according to the NASB, RSV, and the Amplified Bible and "hearken" by the ASV and "accept" by the NIV and NCV.

Peter uses a different word which means to disbelieve, to refuse to be persuaded, to refuse belief yet carries the same idea Paul was making.

To take these three passages and make them some kind of series of proof-texts for baptism being one's act of "obedience" to the gospel is placing baptism in the place of “ BELIEVING” THE GOSPEL!! These passages do NOT teach that one OBEY THE GOSPEL AS IN ‘GET BAPTIZED’– it simply means to listen attentively, to hearken, to give ear to, thus suggesting a careful, focused listening or hearing to the point that one believes THE GOSPEL of Jesus Christ – his death, burial, and resurrection that men might be forgiven of sins and added to the church.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

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#2
Dec 29, 2012
 
This is pretty much what I have been saying all along. However with your research you have put it together better than I have.

The way I began with this was by pointing to the facts of the gospel and water baptism is definitely not the gospel. You have a way of presenting the varying view points and supporting them very well, regardless of which side you take.

Have you noticed that no one else has responded and that your amen corner has dried up.
Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

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#3
Dec 30, 2012
 
Matthew 7:28;

"Not everyone who says to Me,‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day,‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them,‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness (without Torah)!’

"Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock; and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock.

"But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand; and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall."

Luke 9:26;

"For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words, of him the Son of Man will be ashamed when He comes in His own glory, and in His Father’s, and of the holy angels."

Luke 21:33;

"Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away."

John 14:23,24;

"If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father’s who sent Me."

Acts 3:22-26.



"For Moses truly said to the fathers,'The LORD your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear in all things, whatever He says to you. And it shall be that every soul who will not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people." Yes, and all the prophets, from Samuel and those who follow, as many as have spoken, have also foretold these days. You are sons of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with your fathers, saying to Abraham, "And in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed." To you first, God, having raised up His Servant Jesus, sent Him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from your iniquities."

'That Prophet' said immersion into His name is right in the middle of the soul that pleases God and will fully share in His inheritance. The soul who ignores anything He said may well be 'cut off', if Moses or Peter are to be believed.

So what should we believe? Who should we believe?

You who would speak against any commandment of the Lord?:-) There is time to repent of your error though. Return to the Author of your salvation and repent to do whatever He said you should do if you believe.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

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#4
Dec 30, 2012
 
Barnsweb wrote:
Matthew 7:28;
"Not everyone who says to Me,‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day,‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them,‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness (without Torah)!’
"Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock; and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock.
"But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand; and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall."
Luke 9:26;
"For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words, of him the Son of Man will be ashamed when He comes in His own glory, and in His Father’s, and of the holy angels."
Luke 21:33;
"Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away."
John 14:23,24;
"If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father’s who sent Me."
Acts 3:22-26.
"For Moses truly said to the fathers,'The LORD your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear in all things, whatever He says to you. And it shall be that every soul who will not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people." Yes, and all the prophets, from Samuel and those who follow, as many as have spoken, have also foretold these days. You are sons of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with your fathers, saying to Abraham, "And in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed." To you first, God, having raised up His Servant Jesus, sent Him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from your iniquities."
'That Prophet' said immersion into His name is right in the middle of the soul that pleases God and will fully share in His inheritance. The soul who ignores anything He said may well be 'cut off', if Moses or Peter are to be believed.
So what should we believe? Who should we believe?
You who would speak against any commandment of the Lord?:-) There is time to repent of your error though. Return to the Author of your salvation and repent to do whatever He said you should do if you believe.
The promise of God is not water baptism or any other act of obedience. The promise is that A savior would come with healing in his wings. Yes he is the author of our salvation. However if we continue to follow the path of depending upon the law we have in essence cut ourselves off. If the law had the power to save it would still be binding. The law never was intended to save anyone, it was/is a schoolmaster to bring us to the one who has the authority to forgive/save. By saying this I am in no way suggesting that we continue to live like heathens, but our works/deeds have no power to save us. We are saved while we are yet sinners, we do not clean ourselves up and dress in white lining and say here we are Jesus, we made it here by our own obedience.

He is the one who cleans us up and dresses us in white linen. And yes I am aware of the ten virgins story. Those five foolish virgins were not once saved, but then “ran out” of salvation. They were lost, and never had it. They never had any oil in the first place, they were dealing from the bottom of the deck.
New Guy

Lexington, KY

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#5
Dec 30, 2012
 
Strong's exhaustive concordance for the Greek word obey that you used- "to hear under as a subordinate; listen attentively; to heed or conform; compliance or submission to a command or authority."

If you are saying that obeying the gospel simply means to hear it attentively, to listen to it, with no idea of action behind it- then one is corrupting the Greek word, and the word of God itself. BW's post was clear and precise. As is the meaning of heed, conform, and compliance. Belief, repentance, confession, and baptism is all part of obeying the gospel. The Spirit didn't make a mistake. If obey only meant to hear and listen intently, there are other Greek words He could have used for that.

This side of the "Amen corner" just got home from a night in the hospital. Sorry if I'm a little slow in response.
New Guy

Lexington, KY

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#6
Dec 30, 2012
 
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
The promise of God is not water baptism or any other act of obedience. The promise is that A savior would come with healing in his wings. Yes he is the author of our salvation. However if we continue to follow the path of depending upon the law we have in essence cut ourselves off. If the law had the power to save it would still be binding. The law never was intended to save anyone, it was/is a schoolmaster to bring us to the one who has the authority to forgive/save. By saying this I am in no way suggesting that we continue to live like heathens, but our works/deeds have no power to save us. We are saved while we are yet sinners, we do not clean ourselves up and dress in white lining and say here we are Jesus, we made it here by our own obedience.

He is the one who cleans us up and dresses us in white linen. And yes I am aware of the ten virgins story. Those five foolish virgins were not once saved, but then “ran out” of salvation. They were lost, and never had it. They never had any oil in the first place, they were dealing from the bottom of the deck.
No, but what you are saying is that the promises and commands given by Jesus and the apostles are part of the law. "The law" as you use it is the law of Moses- and the commands of Jesus and the apostles are not that. The great commission is not "the law". Keeping His commands are not "keeping the law."
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

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#7
Dec 30, 2012
 
New Guy wrote:
Strong's exhaustive concordance for the Greek word obey that you used- "to hear under as a subordinate; listen attentively; to heed or conform; compliance or submission to a command or authority."
If you are saying that obeying the gospel simply means to hear it attentively, to listen to it, with no idea of action behind it- then one is corrupting the Greek word, and the word of God itself. BW's post was clear and precise. As is the meaning of heed, conform, and compliance. Belief, repentance, confession, and baptism is all part of obeying the gospel. The Spirit didn't make a mistake. If obey only meant to hear and listen intently, there are other Greek words He could have used for that.
This side of the "Amen corner" just got home from a night in the hospital. Sorry if I'm a little slow in response.
Hospitals are a difficult place to be, just the waiting drives me nuts. Hope all is well.

When we obey in water baptism it is not the gospel we are obeying. Even though it is a picture/symbol it is not the gospel.

"He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus".

The first thing we see here is "those who do not know God". This does not refer to those who have never heard of the true God but to those who refuse to recognize him.

"Do not obey"-the gospel invites acceptance and rejection is disobedience to a ROYAL invitation. It has nothing to do with water baptism.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

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#8
Dec 30, 2012
 
New Guy wrote:
<quoted text>
No, but what you are saying is that the promises and commands given by Jesus and the apostles are part of the law. "The law" as you use it is the law of Moses- and the commands of Jesus and the apostles are not that. The great commission is not "the law". Keeping His commands are not "keeping the law."
This sounds good but any command or law that Jesus spoke of was while he was living under the law of Moses.

However the promise was given first in Gen 3. Jesus is the promise in acts 2:38, that he by the power of the Holy Spirit-Christ in us.

I do not believe you can find anywhere in the scripture where water baptism is promised.

"This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus". Christ in us our hope of Glory-accessed through faith not water.

"Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God".

There never has been a water gospel...
New Guy

Lexington, KY

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#9
Dec 30, 2012
 
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
This sounds good but any command or law that Jesus spoke of was while he was living under the law of Moses.
However the promise was given first in Gen 3. Jesus is the promise in acts 2:38, that he by the power of the Holy Spirit-Christ in us.
I do not believe you can find anywhere in the scripture where water baptism is promised.
"This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus". Christ in us our hope of Glory-accessed through faith not water.
"Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God".
There never has been a water gospel...
So the words and commands of Jesus fall under the law? The sermon on the mount has no application to us since it was "under the law" while He was alive? The great commission was part of the law? That is simply not rightly dividing the word of truth.

Baptism is a command, not a promise. Forgiveness of sins and reception of the Spirit is a promise, kept if the command is followed. "He who believes and is baptized shall be saved"- belief and baptism the commands, salvation the promise.

Galatians 3:26-28- "For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, neither slave nor free, neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus." Going through water is part of faith. No action, no faith.
New Guy

Lexington, KY

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#10
Dec 30, 2012
 
Don't think the issues are real serious. Had chest pains-think stress, excessive gas (nice I know), slight heart murmur and a panic attack all rolled into one episode. Feeling much better now, but more dr. visits on the way. O happy day!
New Guy

Lexington, KY

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#11
Dec 30, 2012
 
These discussions are good therapy for me, even if we don't agree.
Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

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#12
Dec 30, 2012
 
Most places in the NT where 'law' is used, in the Aramaic the word was Torah. We should all know what that is. Y'shua could not have been more to the point in His opening sermon when telling us not to think He would set it aside or that he came to do away with it. And if we cannot abide with the Torah, there is no way we can attain to the standards of righteousness that Y'shua said were the doctrine that the Father gave Him to give to us directly, and which record still exists uncorrupted as possible in the Aramaic NT record.

The teaching, doctrine, life, death, resurrection, with great focus on both grace and truth - these are what He came to give us. He is the one who termed that we keep His 'commandments'. Are you ashamed to His word choice Bobby?(and other evangelicals)
Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

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#13
Dec 30, 2012
 

Judged:

1

Hope you're doing well very soon New Guy.
Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

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#14
Dec 30, 2012
 
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
The promise of God is not water baptism or any other act of obedience. The promise is that A savior would come with healing in his wings. Yes he is the author of our salvation. However if we continue to follow the path of depending upon the law we have in essence cut ourselves off. If the law had the power to save it would still be binding. The law never was intended to save anyone, it was/is a schoolmaster to bring us to the one who has the authority to forgive/save. By saying this I am in no way suggesting that we continue to live like heathens, but our works/deeds have no power to save us. We are saved while we are yet sinners, we do not clean ourselves up and dress in white lining and say here we are Jesus, we made it here by our own obedience.
He is the one who cleans us up and dresses us in white linen. And yes I am aware of the ten virgins story. Those five foolish virgins were not once saved, but then “ran out” of salvation. They were lost, and never had it. They never had any oil in the first place, they were dealing from the bottom of the deck.
If the promise of God has nothing to do with obedience, why is belief and obedience to God noted about Abraham in Gen 26;5? Did God lie? Did Moses lie? And repentance is to go back and do what God said to do that we didn't do beforehand. That absolutely includes our 'doing'- just for being counted for 'repentance'.

Whoever has been teaching you Bobby, you honestly need to do an inventory to get back on the train of truth, as you have allowed yourself to get derailed from the one true gospel preached by Master YHWH Y'shua and His eyewitness apostles.
Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

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#15
Dec 30, 2012
 
Acts 2:38,39; 3:22,23 - these must go hand in hand with the great commission and the sermon on the mount - as well as all the rest of His teachings and message in Revelation.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

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#16
Dec 31, 2012
 
Barnsweb wrote:
<quoted text>
If the promise of God has nothing to do with obedience, why is belief and obedience to God noted about Abraham in Gen 26;5? Did God lie? Did Moses lie? And repentance is to go back and do what God said to do that we didn't do beforehand. That absolutely includes our 'doing'- just for being counted for 'repentance'.
Whoever has been teaching you Bobby, you honestly need to do an inventory to get back on the train of truth, as you have allowed yourself to get derailed from the one true gospel preached by Master YHWH Y'shua and His eyewitness apostles.
You keep contradicting yourself, on the one hand you say that water baptism is the promise of God (which it is not) then you say it includes our doing (I interpret that as obedience). Then you say that I do not have enough obedience.

I challenge you to prove that you are following the true gospel preached by Jesus. You have admitted that you sometimes disobey. Is perfection your goal or do you already have it?

My question is how much obedience is required for salvation and how much more is required to keep your salvation?

Abraham reckoned as righteous before any law was given back in gen 15:6.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

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#17
Dec 31, 2012
 
New guy says:
Baptism is a command, not a promise. Forgiveness of sins and reception of the Spirit is a promise, kept if the command is followed. "He who believes and is baptized shall be saved"- belief and baptism the commands, salvation the promise.

If I understand you right you are saying that I may have obeyed the command but I am still lost because of my lack of faith?

If that is true then you and I agree that it is faith that saves, but in what?
New Guy

Lexington, KY

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#18
Dec 31, 2012
 
Bobby wrote:
New guy says:
Baptism is a command, not a promise. Forgiveness of sins and reception of the Spirit is a promise, kept if the command is followed. "He who believes and is baptized shall be saved"- belief and baptism the commands, salvation the promise.
If I understand you right you are saying that I may have obeyed the command but I am still lost because of my lack of faith?
If that is true then you and I agree that it is faith that saves, but in what?
Yes faith saves. Faith in Jesus Christ saves. Here's the issue:

Evangelicals believe that "faith" is simply the point one 'believes' or 'trusts' in Christ; or prays and "asks Jesus into their heart". At that point they believe they are saved, forgiven their sins, and receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Water baptism then comes at some later point, if at all, and it is simply to comply to Jesus' command-for obedience, in your words.

The Bible says we are saved by faith- but it also says we must believe to be saved, it says we must repent, and be baptized (in water) for remission of sins and to receive the indwelling Spirit. This is the true definition of faith- hear the word, believe on it, act on it. Repentance, confession, and baptism are part of faith and cannot be separated from it. Jesus Himself said that we must do these things. If we do what He tells us, is that not faith?

If evangelicals believe something that is scripturally inaccurate and a lie, then do they really have FAITH? You think of all of this as "having faith in the wrong place or object". What I see are people who have been hoodwinked, who don't truly have "faith"- many have never been told what real faith is.

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#19
Dec 31, 2012
 
New Guy wrote:
Strong's exhaustive concordance for the Greek word obey that you used- "to hear under as a subordinate; listen attentively; to heed or conform; compliance or submission to a command or authority."
If you are saying that obeying the gospel simply means to hear it attentively, to listen to it, with no idea of action behind it- then one is corrupting the Greek word, and the word of God itself. BW's post was clear and precise. As is the meaning of heed, conform, and compliance. Belief, repentance, confession, and baptism is all part of obeying the gospel. The Spirit didn't make a mistake. If obey only meant to hear and listen intently, there are other Greek words He could have used for that.
This side of the "Amen corner" just got home from a night in the hospital. Sorry if I'm a little slow in response.
I’m just getting caught up on here. Been down with the flu or something – still not 100%.. anywho … No, I wasn’t trying to diminish the role of baptism, I was merely showing that to OBEY means much more than Baptism, as you pointed out. My point was: I have seen church of Christ websites with a picture of baptism and beside of it written ‘OBEYING THE GOSPEL.’ This sort of stuff misleads people and causes some to even take Bobby’s position that its baptismal regeneration.

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#20
Dec 31, 2012
 
Bobby wrote:
This is pretty much what I have been saying all along. However with your research you have put it together better than I have.
The way I began with this was by pointing to the facts of the gospel and water baptism is definitely not the gospel. You have a way of presenting the varying view points and supporting them very well, regardless of which side you take.
Have you noticed that no one else has responded and that your amen corner has dried up.
I’m not looking for any ‘amen corner men’… LOL. I wasn’t implying we ONLY listen and thus be saved. My point was those three passages are often used as BAPTISM verses AS IF BEING BAPTIZED IS OBEYING THE GOSPEL. NEW GUY explained it better than I can.

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