Baptism: God at work
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Randy

Axton, VA

#1 Dec 4, 2012
I believe one reason that many reject baptism as an essential act is partly due to the church of Christ presenting sloppy sermons on the subject of baptism. I recall once a certain church of Christ preacher telling me that he had hoped that he would have been the one to baptize me into Christ. Comments like this show obvious ignorance from some in the church of Christ. NO MAN can put another man IN CHRIST. Men who baptize alien sinners merely are servants of God and servants to the alien sinner at baptism. They do NOT put the alien sinner IN CHRIST. God adds people to the church – IN CHRIST.

I also recall once when I attended a certain church of Christ assembly that one of the men in the assembly kept trying to persuade my Wife to go forward to be baptized. There was no mention of Jesus nor repentance … just a focus on water baptism. It’s this kind of sloppy preaching/teaching that lead people to conclude that the church of Christ are teaching baptismal regeneration. Preaching a sermon void of the gospel of Jesus (the good news of Him dying for sin and raising from the dead) then asking people to come forward to a man-made invitation song and be baptized for remission of sins is just poor preaching to put it bluntly. Don’t preach sermons void of Jesus’ work (the Gospel) then call sinners to be ‘baptized in Christ’ during a man-made invitation song. No such example in Scripture for this kind of preaching.

The church of Christ need to better explain the work/operation of God IN BAPTISM not just tell people it’s an act of faithful obedience that results in remission of sins. No, it’s not just an act of obedience. In baptism something supernatural occurs – God does something Spiritual. A great comparison is the cross of Christ. God allowed mere men to put Jesus on the cross but the entire time it was God at work. The same is true in baptism. God uses mere men to baptize sinners yet it is God at work Col. 2:11-12. This needs to be explained more by the church of Christ so people can see its not baptismal regeneration.

The church of Christ needs to stop trying to rush people to be baptized without first preaching Jesus (the Gospel) and repentance. This sloppy type of sermons have no doubt produced wet sinners rather than souls saved by God.

Since: Jan 10

Location hidden

#3 Dec 4, 2012
"The same is true in baptism. God uses mere men to baptize sinners yet it is God at work Col. 2:11-12."

I've preached that for 24 years.

Every gospel preacher I've heard has preached that.

Some people don't listen carefully.

Jesus, the Master teacher, was misunderstood by His critics.

Since: May 10

Location hidden

#4 Dec 4, 2012
Randy wrote:
I believe one reason that many reject baptism as an essential act is partly due to the church of Christ presenting sloppy sermons on the subject of baptism. I recall once a certain church of Christ preacher telling me that he had hoped that he would have been the one to baptize me into Christ. Comments like this show obvious ignorance from some in the church of Christ. NO MAN can put another man IN CHRIST. Men who baptize alien sinners merely are servants of God and servants to the alien sinner at baptism. They do NOT put the alien sinner IN CHRIST. God adds people to the church – IN CHRIST.
I also recall once when I attended a certain church of Christ assembly that one of the men in the assembly kept trying to persuade my Wife to go forward to be baptized. There was no mention of Jesus nor repentance … just a focus on water baptism. It’s this kind of sloppy preaching/teaching that lead people to conclude that the church of Christ are teaching baptismal regeneration. Preaching a sermon void of the gospel of Jesus (the good news of Him dying for sin and raising from the dead) then asking people to come forward to a man-made invitation song and be baptized for remission of sins is just poor preaching to put it bluntly. Don’t preach sermons void of Jesus’ work (the Gospel) then call sinners to be ‘baptized in Christ’ during a man-made invitation song. No such example in Scripture for this kind of preaching.
The church of Christ need to better explain the work/operation of God IN BAPTISM not just tell people it’s an act of faithful obedience that results in remission of sins. No, it’s not just an act of obedience. In baptism something supernatural occurs – God does something Spiritual. A great comparison is the cross of Christ. God allowed mere men to put Jesus on the cross but the entire time it was God at work. The same is true in baptism. God uses mere men to baptize sinners yet it is God at work Col. 2:11-12. This needs to be explained more by the church of Christ so people can see its not baptismal regeneration.
The church of Christ needs to stop trying to rush people to be baptized without first preaching Jesus (the Gospel) and repentance. This sloppy type of sermons have no doubt produced wet sinners rather than souls saved by God.
You speak as if this is the rule instead of the exception, which I will quickly disagree with. Yes there are probably those you speak of but it is not of those properly present the gospel, and as in the bible these need to be taught more fully the word of God. I have also seen the other side where a person was convinced of the Gospel obeyed and later the family insisted that it be done again because they did not get to witness the act...Hogwash. I personally have never seen a sermon on baptism without Christ being the center of the sermon.

Since: Nov 12

Location hidden

#5 Dec 4, 2012
HEATH - 72 wrote:
"The same is true in baptism. God uses mere men to baptize sinners yet it is God at work Col. 2:11-12."
I've preached that for 24 years.
Every gospel preacher I've heard has preached that.
Some people don't listen carefully.
Jesus, the Master teacher, was misunderstood by His critics.
No matter how you cut the cake its still baptismal effectual forgiveness. You teach that water makes the soul clean by obeying its command to be baptized. Water does not save no body. Jesus saves

Since: Jan 10

Location hidden

#6 Dec 4, 2012
"Jesus saves" in water.

John 3:5
Mark 16:16
Acts 22:16
Romans 6:1-4
1 Peter 3:21

"No matter how you cut the cake its still baptismal effectual forgiveness."

AMEN!

"You teach that water makes the soul clean by obeying its command to be baptized."

FALSE. try again.

"Water does not save no body."

Double negative but true.

Keeeeeeep trying.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#7 Dec 4, 2012
night-owl-early-bird wrote:
<quoted text>
No matter how you cut the cake its still baptismal effectual forgiveness. You teach that water makes the soul clean by obeying its command to be baptized. Water does not save no body. Jesus saves
I still think you are Randy playing both sides of every issue. However I agree and will also say that "using coc language" there can be no salvation without water unless you are below the age of accountability and die before reaching that magical age. With baptismal regeneration, God's hands are tied, he cannot save anyone unless enough water can be found and a coc preacher/teacher to make sure the person understands that he receives forgiveness of sins at/during the time he is completely immersed. God is not legalistic like the coc is, except in the fact that he required Jesus perfect sinless body/blood to redeem us, which is why salvation is based on grace not works/obedience. The rest of us have no righteousness of our own-not even when we obey in water baptism!
Randy

Axton, VA

#8 Dec 4, 2012
JustChristian wrote:
<quoted text>
You speak as if this is the rule instead of the exception, which I will quickly disagree with. Yes there are probably those you speak of but it is not of those properly present the gospel, and as in the bible these need to be taught more fully the word of God. I have also seen the other side where a person was convinced of the Gospel obeyed and later the family insisted that it be done again because they did not get to witness the act...Hogwash. I personally have never seen a sermon on baptism without Christ being the center of the sermon.
I didn’t mean it as THE RULE hence my wording directed to ‘SOME’ church of Christ preachers. Neither did I mean that sermons were being preached on baptism that lacks teaching of the gospel.

I’m saying I have heard sermons preached non-related to Jesus (the gospel) and then at the ending of the sermon a call for baptism is ask during the invitation song without any reference to the gospel nor repentance; I have personally seen this. I will add that after I mentioned this to the preacher, he preached on repentance the following week.

Heath commented that he and all other ‘gospel preachers’ teach this yet blamed those who hear his teaching if they come away not understanding. Admittedly, the blame could be placed on those who failed to listen carefully. However, in many cases, the blame rest with the teacher. A good teacher makes good students – proven fact.

I had to listen to MANY church of Christ preachers before connecting the dots. Trust me, I listened very carefully to quite a few church of Christ preachers and many were so focused on water that Jesus seemed to take a backseat. Often, even on this site, there is very little said in regards to Jesus and what he done. When you go look at the threads on here regarding baptism, they practically are void of Jesus.
Randy

Axton, VA

#9 Dec 4, 2012
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
I still think you are Randy playing both sides of every issue. However I agree and will also say that "using coc language" there can be no salvation without water unless you are below the age of accountability and die before reaching that magical age. With baptismal regeneration, God's hands are tied, he cannot save anyone unless enough water can be found and a coc preacher/teacher to make sure the person understands that he receives forgiveness of sins at/during the time he is completely immersed. God is not legalistic like the coc is, except in the fact that he required Jesus perfect sinless body/blood to redeem us, which is why salvation is based on grace not works/obedience. The rest of us have no righteousness of our own-not even when we obey in water baptism!
Bobby, you have accused me of being SW, Dave, and others, too. You are seriously paranoid.

You need to examine the times of posters on here. For me to be so many players would require me to never sleep. I do not have internet at home except for my cell. My lap top crashed over 6 months ago and I discontinued internet at home. I also have 9 year old Triplets which require most of my time for homework and things. If you still want to believe I am Dave, SW, or whoever, go ahead.

I disagree with your statement regarding a church of Christ person must do the baptizing. One can be baptized without a church of Christ person baptizing them.

Regarding the age of accountability: what age do you think is appropriate for a child to repent?

Water is pretty much everywhere and highly unlikely that one cannot be baptized. I’m not saying it impossible because I do know for a fact that people in some prisons cannot be baptized in a time manner. It took 3 years for a friend of mine to get past the red tape. During the 3 years waiting, was he in limbo as a sinner?????? I don’t have a sound answer for this.

Your comment regarding works/obedience I disagree with totally. You are implying baptism somehow is a work of man as if God cannot use men to bring about His work in baptism. As I stated above, he used men to nail Jesus to the cross but the entire work was of God. The same can be said of baptism.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#10 Dec 4, 2012
Randy says:
I had to listen to MANY church of Christ preachers before connecting the dots. Trust me, I listened very carefully to quite a few church of Christ preachers and many were so focused on water that Jesus seemed to take a backseat. Often, even on this site, there is very little said in regards to Jesus and what he done. When you go look at the threads on here regarding baptism, they practically are void of Jesus.

That is exactly what I have experienced through the years. I have come to the conclusion that this is a direct result of baptismal regeneration which focuses on man, his obedience and his perfect understanding which leaves no room for God's grace to operate.
Randy

Axton, VA

#11 Dec 4, 2012
Bobby wrote:
Randy says:
I had to listen to MANY church of Christ preachers before connecting the dots. Trust me, I listened very carefully to quite a few church of Christ preachers and many were so focused on water that Jesus seemed to take a backseat. Often, even on this site, there is very little said in regards to Jesus and what he done. When you go look at the threads on here regarding baptism, they practically are void of Jesus.
That is exactly what I have experienced through the years. I have come to the conclusion that this is a direct result of baptismal regeneration which focuses on man, his obedience and his perfect understanding which leaves no room for God's grace to operate.
I’m not implying baptism isn’t essential. From what I see in the bible it is just as essential as repentance. I just wish it were taught with a central focus on Jesus and the Gospel not on obedience unto salvation as if our obedience is the cause and effect.

Since: Jan 10

Location hidden

#12 Dec 4, 2012
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>I still think you are Randy playing both sides of every issue. However I agree and will also say that "using coc language" there can be no salvation without water unless you are below the age of accountability and die before reaching that magical age. With baptismal regeneration, God's hands are tied, he cannot save anyone unless enough water can be found and a coc preacher/teacher to make sure the person understands that he receives forgiveness of sins at/during the time he is completely immersed. God is not legalistic like the coc is, except in the fact that he required Jesus perfect sinless body/blood to redeem us, which is why salvation is based on grace not works/obedience. The rest of us have no righteousness of our own-not even when we obey in water baptism!
He is playing both sides. He isn't a faith aloner like you. Yet at times he uses the same argumentation.

www.roysecitycoc.org

Since: Jan 10

Location hidden

#13 Dec 4, 2012
Bobby wrote:
Randy says:
I had to listen to MANY church of Christ preachers before connecting the dots. Trust me, I listened very carefully to quite a few church of Christ preachers and many were so focused on water that Jesus seemed to take a backseat. Often, even on this site, there is very little said in regards to Jesus and what he done. When you go look at the threads on here regarding baptism, they practically are void of Jesus.

That is exactly what I have experienced through the years. I have come to the conclusion that this is a direct result of baptismal regeneration which focuses on man, his obedience and his perfect understanding which leaves no room for God's grace to operate.
That's why Bobby went to a Grace Bible church where he pledged his allegiance to the elders. God's grace was not sufficient for him. How sad.

www.roysecitycoc.org
Randy

Axton, VA

#14 Dec 4, 2012
HEATH - 72 wrote:
<quoted text>
He is playing both sides. He isn't a faith aloner like you. Yet at times he uses the same argumentation.
www.roysecitycoc.org
True, I do not believe in faith alone. How can faith be alone yet call for repentance? If one must repent, faith is not alone. To clarify I would add that faith is the conduit for which repentance and baptism flow. In other words, repentance and baptism are conditions yet not meritorious nor efficacious but come from a foundation of faith in Jesus Christ.

When people see ‘my name’ on here, I state what “I” believe. I have played various roles/denominational positions on various sites. Sock puppetry serves its purpose as it shows me weak points and strong points from different denominations. I am sure Bobby thinks my goal is to set up a straw man then knock him down thus making one side appear stronger. This is not at all how I use sock puppetry. I honestly assume the position and attempt to defend it while refuting other positions. If it offends anybody, too bad. I’m merely using sock puppetry to help me better understand all sides.

Since: May 10

Location hidden

#15 Dec 4, 2012
Bobby wrote:
Randy says:

That is exactly what I have experienced through the years. I have come to the conclusion that this is a direct result of baptismal regeneration which focuses on man, his obedience and his perfect understanding which leaves no room for God's grace to operate.
Grace has appeared to all men so how can it not have room to operate?

Since: May 10

Location hidden

#16 Dec 4, 2012
Randy wrote:
<quoted text>
I’m not implying baptism isn’t essential. From what I see in the bible it is just as essential as repentance. I just wish it were taught with a central focus on Jesus and the Gospel not on obedience unto salvation as if our obedience is the cause and effect.
Hey Randy arent you and early rooster the same person?

Since: May 10

Location hidden

#17 Dec 4, 2012
Early owl

Since: May 10

Location hidden

#18 Dec 4, 2012
early bird.
New Guy

Grayson, KY

#19 Dec 4, 2012
Randy wrote:
<quoted text>
Bobby, you have accused me of being SW, Dave, and others, too. You are seriously paranoid.
You need to examine the times of posters on here. For me to be so many players would require me to never sleep. I do not have internet at home except for my cell. My lap top crashed over 6 months ago and I discontinued internet at home. I also have 9 year old Triplets which require most of my time for homework and things. If you still want to believe I am Dave, SW, or whoever, go ahead.
I disagree with your statement regarding a church of Christ person must do the baptizing. One can be baptized without a church of Christ person baptizing them.
Regarding the age of accountability: what age do you think is appropriate for a child to repent?
Water is pretty much everywhere and highly unlikely that one cannot be baptized. I’m not saying it impossible because I do know for a fact that people in some prisons cannot be baptized in a time manner. It took 3 years for a friend of mine to get past the red tape. During the 3 years waiting, was he in limbo as a sinner?????? I don’t have a sound answer for this.
Your comment regarding works/obedience I disagree with totally. You are implying baptism somehow is a work of man as if God cannot use men to bring about His work in baptism. As I stated above, he used men to nail Jesus to the cross but the entire work was of God. The same can be said of baptism.
Been a long time since I posted. Not much time now since I've got to leave for work. But I do want to say that I agree with this post and also your original one on this subject. Recently I've been dealing with several issues spiritually that have been caused by "sloppy" preaching on different subjects. Many COC sermons and preachers I have heard have done more harm than good because of some of their dogmatic statements that are not really scriptural, but human opinion. As a result some of our arguments are very
weak and have led to much confusion.

For everyone's information, this is the original "New Guy", Dave from KY. I live in Fleming County KY and work in Rowan County KY. No need to confuse me with anyone else on here. Good day to all.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#20 Dec 4, 2012
New Guy wrote:
<quoted text>
Been a long time since I posted. Not much time now since I've got to leave for work. But I do want to say that I agree with this post and also your original one on this subject. Recently I've been dealing with several issues spiritually that have been caused by "sloppy" preaching on different subjects. Many COC sermons and preachers I have heard have done more harm than good because of some of their dogmatic statements that are not really scriptural, but human opinion. As a result some of our arguments are very
weak and have led to much confusion.
For everyone's information, this is the original "New Guy", Dave from KY. I live in Fleming County KY and work in Rowan County KY. No need to confuse me with anyone else on here. Good day to all.
It is interesting how "new guy" was resurrected at just the right time. Wonder when SW will be back, he promised he would not leave again.
Randy

Axton, VA

#21 Dec 4, 2012
New Guy wrote:
<quoted text>
Been a long time since I posted. Not much time now since I've got to leave for work. But I do want to say that I agree with this post and also your original one on this subject. Recently I've been dealing with several issues spiritually that have been caused by "sloppy" preaching on different subjects. Many COC sermons and preachers I have heard have done more harm than good because of some of their dogmatic statements that are not really scriptural, but human opinion. As a result some of our arguments are very
weak and have led to much confusion.
For everyone's information, this is the original "New Guy", Dave from KY. I live in Fleming County KY and work in Rowan County KY. No need to confuse me with anyone else on here. Good day to all.
Yeah, Bobby thought I was you after you left. I am glad to see church of Christ preachers fess up to this. Moreover, I hope you and others refine your teachings. Again, I agree with you guys regarding baptism but many sermons and debates as those on here seem to put Jesus on the backburner. When someone can preach a sermon void of the gospel then do an alter call … oops I mean invitation song, telling people to come forward and they will baptize them in Christ, to me this is sloppy sermons. This ‘tradition’ has occurred so long that it’s the norm to have an invitation song at the end of every sermon, even if the sermon wasn’t about Jesus dying and being raised or directly related to the gospel. Granted, most people KNOW the facts already concerning the gospel BUUUUTT there could be much more focus on Jesus rather than on getting people to the water. I fear many simply respond as some do to alter calls in other denominations.

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