Can we trust CoC to have truth?

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#1 Mar 27, 2013
Let's forget right now all the lies, deceits and frauds that the Church of Christ that Johnny, Mark, James, Heath etc have perpetrated.

Why should we trust and believe their Church of Christ to have the truth about God, Jesus Christ, salvation and everything else?

Mark Mcminnis likes to say that he and other CoC men are helping people "find the truth" but how do we know their understanding and knowledge of the Bible is the one true understanding?

Anybody can say they have the truth. What makes the CoC "truth" so different? They say they take their doctrine and instructions from the Bible but so does everyone from the Baptists to the Catholics to the Pentecostals to everyone else.

CoC could have the truth but so does everyone else.

How can we trust the Church of Christ that Johnny, Mark and James are with, to have the truth?
Mike Peterson

Jackson, MS

#2 Mar 27, 2013
Olethros wrote:
Let's forget right now all the lies, deceits and frauds that the Church of Christ that Johnny, Mark, James, Heath etc have perpetrated.
Why should we trust and believe their Church of Christ to have the truth about God, Jesus Christ, salvation and everything else?
Mark Mcminnis likes to say that he and other CoC men are helping people "find the truth" but how do we know their understanding and knowledge of the Bible is the one true understanding?
Anybody can say they have the truth. What makes the CoC "truth" so different? They say they take their doctrine and instructions from the Bible but so does everyone from the Baptists to the Catholics to the Pentecostals to everyone else.
CoC could have the truth but so does everyone else.
How can we trust the Church of Christ that Johnny, Mark and James are with, to have the truth?
All denominations have part of the Truth. Jesus, God , or the HS did not mention a Bible nor did they tell anybody to write a Bible or any other book.

What did Jesus create? A Church. The Church came before the Bible. The earliest book of the NT of the Bible was written 10-20 years after Jesus died and the last, Revelation was written 60 years after Jesus died.

How did the people know the way to salvation? They were taught by the Church. There was no Bible for 350 years after Jesus and 90% of the people in the world could not read until the printing press in 1470.

By 382 AD there were hundreds of scriptures being read in Churches and most of them did not completely follow what the Apostles had taught.

So in 382 AD at the Council of Rome, the Church leaders decided what books belonged in the Bible. They decided,, with the help of the HS what was the inspired and inerrant written Word of God. 2 other Councils in Hippo and Carthage, reaffirmed these selections, the Pope agreed, and the Bible came into existence.

For 1200 more years the Catholic Church made copies by hand and protected it until the printing press was invented.

In the 1500s the Protester reformation happened and denominations came into existence. Denominations are not in the Bible. Each one of these denominations came out of the Catholic Church and brought some of the truth with them.

The Bible is a Catholic Book.

The COC and all other denominations and non-denominations, whatever that means, are man made religious communities who believe whatever they want to believe based on what they think. That is why there are over 30,000 different denominations today and growing larger as I write this.

God would not be so cruel to leave us a book, when only 10% of the world could read and say this book is the way to eternal life or eternal damnation. Now it is up to you to figure it out. The HS will lead you to truth. Doesn't that sound ridiculous to you? All the people who could not read were and are doomed to hell if that is true. If that was true the HS will lead every Bible reader to the same conclusion.

Of course he did not do that. Upon this rock, Peter I will build my Church, not my Bible. Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, whatever you loose on earth, will be loosed in heaven, not what the Bible binds and loosens.

The Bible says it is sufficient for teaching and that is what the Church uses it for, to teach. It is the inspired and inerrant word of God.

Come back to the Church Jesus started in 32 AD. Do not be one those in John 6:66, funny verse number huh, and leave Jesus because his teaching was hard.
Steve Baisden

Gobles, MI

#3 Mar 27, 2013
It takes study on the searchers part. There are some very plain and hard to misunderstand scriptures in the Bible like; There is ONE Faith... hard to misunderstand that. So when we look around and see many faiths, we KNOW many are wrong and God is right. Then we hear all those many churches saying we are all ok and there is not only one faith then you can know the ones saying that are wrong and nt the one hose you can X off immediately which will be the vast majority. How can we then determine who is right and who is wrong? This is how I did it; I started with a check list with about a dozen items on it that the Bible says in easy to understand plain statements, like "call no man upon the earth father" check the Catholics off the list, "No man cometh unto the Father but by the Son" check the JWs off the list. "Ye MUST be born again", "He that Believeth AND is baptzed shall be saved" check all the rest off the list.

Also you must understand that the Bibe does not contradict itself, when you have two different veses contradicting each other, you know you are the one understanding it wrong. All the scriptures, everyone MUST harmonize. One faith says you are savd by faith only, they cite (Rom 10:9-10) even though that is not what it says that is how they "interpret" it, but then you go to Acts 2:28 and it says repent and be baptized for the remission of sins you know hen somehing is wrog and its not the Bible. It must be the "interpretation" is in error. Start with fundamentals and go go from there and you will find that Jesus' Church can be identified by the truth(Jn 8:32). It is not as difficult as people make it, it just takes honesty.
TheWingsOfWisdom

San Antonio, TX

#4 Mar 27, 2013
The Lord gave his glory to me.
Barnsweb

Canton, OH

#5 Mar 28, 2013
Olethros wrote:
Let's forget right now all the lies, deceits and frauds that the Church of Christ that Johnny, Mark, James, Heath etc have perpetrated.
Why should we trust and believe their Church of Christ to have the truth about God, Jesus Christ, salvation and everything else?
Mark Mcminnis likes to say that he and other CoC men are helping people "find the truth" but how do we know their understanding and knowledge of the Bible is the one true understanding?
Anybody can say they have the truth. What makes the CoC "truth" so different? They say they take their doctrine and instructions from the Bible but so does everyone from the Baptists to the Catholics to the Pentecostals to everyone else.
CoC could have the truth but so does everyone else.
How can we trust the Church of Christ that Johnny, Mark and James are with, to have the truth?
This is easy to know - who teaches what Y'shua taught?

As we agree with Him, as we repent to do what He said, then is found true discernment of the truth - the truth from God, and not the deceiver or ignorant men.'Take heed that no man deceive you.'

onediscipletoanother.org

The real truth can only be gained from abiding in His word.
Dave P

Morehead, KY

#6 Mar 28, 2013
Mike Peterson wrote:
<quoted text>
All denominations have part of the Truth. Jesus, God , or the HS did not mention a Bible nor did they tell anybody to write a Bible or any other book.
What did Jesus create? A Church. The Church came before the Bible. The earliest book of the NT of the Bible was written 10-20 years after Jesus died and the last, Revelation was written 60 years after Jesus died.
How did the people know the way to salvation? They were taught by the Church. There was no Bible for 350 years after Jesus and 90% of the people in the world could not read until the printing press in 1470.
By 382 AD there were hundreds of scriptures being read in Churches and most of them did not completely follow what the Apostles had taught.
So in 382 AD at the Council of Rome, the Church leaders decided what books belonged in the Bible. They decided,, with the help of the HS what was the inspired and inerrant written Word of God. 2 other Councils in Hippo and Carthage, reaffirmed these selections, the Pope agreed, and the Bible came into existence.
For 1200 more years the Catholic Church made copies by hand and protected it until the printing press was invented.
God would not be so cruel to leave us a book, when only 10% of the world could read and say this book is the way to eternal life or eternal damnation. Now it is up to you to figure it out. The HS will lead you to truth. Doesn't that sound ridiculous to you? All the people who could not read were and are doomed to hell if that is true. If that was true the HS will lead every Bible reader to the same conclusion.
Of course he did not do that. Upon this rock, Peter I will build my Church, not my Bible. Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, whatever you loose on earth, will be loosed in heaven, not what the Bible binds and loosens.
The Bible says it is sufficient for teaching and that is what the Church uses it for, to teach. It is the inspired and inerrant word of God.
The RCC is just one of the many harlots Revelation talks about. It happens to be the oldest, the one that many spring from.
*Your post has several errors and contradictions, if you are going to defend Catholicism this is not a good way to do so. "The church uses the Bible to teach. It is the inspired and innerant word of God". Then earlier you say, God, Jesus nor the Spirit told anyone to write a book. What do you think inspired means? Peter says holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Spirit.
You also say that the scriptures were completed by 90 AD or so, then say there was no Bible for 350 years. Manuscripts were being copied in that time and churches were using them.
As for Peter being the rock the church is built on, leading to him being first pope, is laughable. Peter had a wife, told Cornelius not to worship him, and if you do a Greek word study on that passage you learn that HEAVEN does the binding and loosing and Peter (and the rest of the apostles) have the authority to report it on earth. Peter had only the same authority as the rest, nothing more.
The council of Rome.decided what was in the Bible? I believe God decided what was scripture and what wasn't. Jude says the faith was once.delivered to the saints, past tense. The last chapter in Romans teaches that the revelation of God is revealed and made known to all nations then.
1 Timothy 4 shows us where Catholicism stands. Your post also seems to make the Catholic church the savior, and not Jesus Christ.
Friend, I hope you read this post and the one Barnsweb wrote. Examine Catholic doctrine against the word of God itself. See which is correct-the Bible or the Catholic church. But first and foremost, READ!!!!! You will do more good reading for yourself than listening to the words of men.

Since: Mar 13

Freeport, FL

#7 Mar 28, 2013
Olethros, the "proof is in the pudding"--- I agree that all folks have ACCESS to truth (ie, God's word, cf. Jn. 17:17), but it is obvious that not all adhere to truth, if so, why do all teach different doctrines? How many truths are there??
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#8 Mar 28, 2013
Mike Peterson wrote:
<quoted text>
All denominations have part of the Truth. Jesus, God , or the HS did not mention a Bible nor did they tell anybody to write a Bible or any other book.
What did Jesus create? A Church. The Church came before the Bible. The earliest book of the NT of the Bible was written 10-20 years after Jesus died and the last, Revelation was written 60 years after Jesus died.
How did the people know the way to salvation? They were taught by the Church. There was no Bible for 350 years after Jesus and 90% of the people in the world could not read until the printing press in 1470.
By 382 AD there were hundreds of scriptures being read in Churches and most of them did not completely follow what the Apostles had taught.
So in 382 AD at the Council of Rome, the Church leaders decided what books belonged in the Bible. They decided,, with the help of the HS what was the inspired and inerrant written Word of God. 2 other Councils in Hippo and Carthage, reaffirmed these selections, the Pope agreed, and the Bible came into existence.
For 1200 more years the Catholic Church made copies by hand and protected it until the printing press was invented.
In the 1500s the Protester reformation happened and denominations came into existence. Denominations are not in the Bible. Each one of these denominations came out of the Catholic Church and brought some of the truth with them.
The Bible is a Catholic Book.
The COC and all other denominations and non-denominations, whatever that means, are man made religious communities who believe whatever they want to believe based on what they think. That is why there are over 30,000 different denominations today and growing larger as I write this.
God would not be so cruel to leave us a book, when only 10% of the world could read and say this book is the way to eternal life or eternal damnation. Now it is up to you to figure it out. The HS will lead you to truth. Doesn't that sound ridiculous to you? All the people who could not read were and are doomed to hell if that is true. If that was true the HS will lead every Bible reader to the same conclusion.
Of course he did not do that. Upon this rock, Peter I will build my Church, not my Bible. Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, whatever you loose on earth, will be loosed in heaven, not what the Bible binds and loosens.
The Bible says it is sufficient for teaching and that is what the Church uses it for, to teach. It is the inspired and inerrant word of God.
Come back to the Church Jesus started in 32 AD. Do not be one those in John 6:66, funny verse number huh, and leave Jesus because his teaching was hard.
I don't know which side you are supporting, but these are actually some good points. What I hear you saying though is that for many years people did not have a bible and if they did very few could read. This would mean that they would have to trust that the people preaching were telling the truth. In other words they would be following men hoping they were of God. This leaves a lot of room for faith and the work of the Holy Spirit...

Since: May 10

Location hidden

#9 Mar 28, 2013
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
I don't know which side you are supporting, but these are actually some good points. What I hear you saying though is that for many years people did not have a bible and if they did very few could read. This would mean that they would have to trust that the people preaching were telling the truth. In other words they would be following men hoping they were of God. This leaves a lot of room for faith and the work of the Holy Spirit...
lol dont know what to think until you know which side he supports... oh my. you are too funny

Since: Jul 11

Location hidden

#10 Mar 28, 2013
Efarrior wrote:
Olethros, the "proof is in the pudding"--- I agree that all folks have ACCESS to truth (ie, God's word, cf. Jn. 17:17), but it is obvious that not all adhere to truth, if so, why do all teach different doctrines? How many truths are there??
Are you contending every church of Christ agree? I hope not; there are plenty of books out there that clearly show the contradictions and disagreements within the church of Christ. These books, btw, written from conservative church of Christ preacher who have brought to light things most wish to hide. Btw, I do believe the church of Christ to be closer to the Bible- does close count? If so, this means "maybe" there are others who make the cut, too.
Mike Peterson

Birmingham, AL

#11 Mar 28, 2013
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
I don't know which side you are supporting, but these are actually some good points. What I hear you saying though is that for many years people did not have a bible and if they did very few could read. This would mean that they would have to trust that the people preaching were telling the truth. In other words they would be following men hoping they were of God. This leaves a lot of room for faith and the work of the Holy Spirit...
I am proud Catholic. We follow Jesus through the Church he set up for us that has the pillar and ground of Truth. This teaching Church consists of the written word of God, the Bible, Tradition, the spoken word of God and the Magisterium, the Successors of the Apostles, the leaders of the Church.
Barnsweb

Canton, OH

#12 Mar 28, 2013
Is the parable about the virgins awaiting the bridegroom foretelling the situation of those who think to come to the gate of entrance to the wedding feast of the kingdom of God? If so, when the word went out that He was coming now, they were all sleeping!, but some were prepared to enter because they had enough light to be prepared - others didn't have the light, or source of the light, neccessary.

Could it be that certain elements of the 'light' were necessary to enter? Which elements of the light of His word in cooperation with His Spirit should be believe are necessary - based on what He told us?

'He that believeth and is baptised shall be saved' comes to mind, as do many other things. Whatever it was, it was something that took time to go and get, and they didn't have time to get it before the door to enter the feast was shut, and the call is to perpetual readiness.

For those who believe immersion into His name as commanded in Acts 2:38,39 and other places, is not a requirement - recall that His return will be sudden. Do you really want to go to the trouble to believe and then distinctly reject this simple commandment/direction/doctrine that He and His apostles taught?

Might be a good day to call your local CoC preacher and get immersed into His name as He said we should. Why not?:-)

Since: May 10

Location hidden

#13 Mar 28, 2013
Mike Peterson wrote:
<quoted text>
I am proud Catholic. We follow Jesus through the Church he set up for us that has the pillar and ground of Truth. This teaching Church consists of the written word of God, the Bible, Tradition, the spoken word of God and the Magisterium, the Successors of the Apostles, the leaders of the Church.
Do catholics priest still not marry is that by choice or forced upon them? I remember a friend that could not eat something on fridays in grade school? What was that about?

Since: May 10

Location hidden

#14 Mar 28, 2013
Mike Peterson wrote:
<quoted text>
I am proud Catholic. We follow Jesus through the Church he set up for us that has the pillar and ground of Truth. This teaching Church consists of the written word of God, the Bible, Tradition, the spoken word of God and the Magisterium, the Successors of the Apostles, the leaders of the Church.
Do catholics call theirselves christians?
Barnsweb

Canton, OH

#15 Mar 28, 2013
Mike Peterson wrote:
<quoted text>
I am proud Catholic. We follow Jesus through the Church he set up for us that has the pillar and ground of Truth. This teaching Church consists of the written word of God, the Bible, Tradition, the spoken word of God and the Magisterium, the Successors of the Apostles, the leaders of the Church.
Being proud doesn't mean you belong to Him. Truth does not equal tradition or Magiserium and the faith is what Master YHWH Y'shua declaired to be the word of God that leads to eternal life - not some decree of man.

You should do some study about the pagan symbolism of the Vatican - and try to figure out why the RCC killed people who wanted the common man to be able to read the very words of life that Y'shua taught - AND ask yourself why they changed His name in the NT record?

Your Church has many members and a long history, but that doesn't equal being the one true Church. The true Church teaches the doctrine of II John 9-11.

onediscipletoanother.org
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#16 Mar 28, 2013
I find it annoying that just because Mike is a catholic some of you are insinuating that he is not a christian. I admit the catholic church has it's share of problems just like the coc. They do have one thing in common though. They both believe they are the only true church-ugh.

There are two former catholic couples in my home group, they are great people. I can't see why we have to automatically condemn people because they are not a member of our church. Mike is not a muslim and he does not appear to be an enemy of the cross. Christians have enough enemies without making new ones-looking for them behind every rock.

Since: Jul 11

Location hidden

#17 Mar 28, 2013
I'm curious Bobby- do you also believe Jehovah Witnesses' to be saved? If not, why not?
Dave P

Morehead, KY

#18 Mar 28, 2013
Bobby wrote:
I find it annoying that just because Mike is a catholic some of you are insinuating that he is not a christian. I admit the catholic church has it's share of problems just like the coc. They do have one thing in common though. They both believe they are the only true church-ugh.
There are two former catholic couples in my home group, they are great people. I can't see why we have to automatically condemn people because they are not a member of our church. Mike is not a muslim and he does not appear to be an enemy of the cross. Christians have enough enemies without making new ones-looking for them behind every rock.
Bobby, I want to admit to you that since we have had our discussions here I have changed a lot. Actually talking to all here has made a difference. You emphasize grace, BW the word of God and keeping it, Randy is good at reasoning and common sense arguments, as well as creating discussion. Nobody and myself have had good conversations and he has brought points out that I hadn't realized. In fact he did so yesterday. WIL has a fresh view, and even JR has joined in.

You mentioned the one true church deal. I agree. I don't agree with RCC or the coc that they are the one. You bring up baptismal regeneration a lot-RCC teaches it in its purest form. The Holy Spirit is treated as a thing, an object, that gets passed on through laying on of hands at a ceremony later in life. I know you don't believe this. Catholicism looks more to the church than to Christ as the savior, just read Mike's post and you can see it. Catholicism really is dressed up Judaism, except they sacrifice Jesus daily all over the world and not some poor animal. Many are born or grandfathered into the RCC with no knowledge or faith, yet are "saved". I could go on, but this is dangerous and false teaching. It definitely affects ones salvation.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#19 Mar 28, 2013
JesusCreed wrote:
I'm curious Bobby- do you also believe Jehovah Witnesses' to be saved? If not, why not?
I expected this, thanks for bring it up. I have problems with the rcc, coc, mormons etc because of their doctrine/theology. I even have some problems with the bible churches. However we are not saved by that we are saved by Christ Jesus. Like everyone else here, I have my own views. I believe there are christians in most if not all denominations because of their faith in Jesus work on the cross not because of the theological system they are currently under.

Most of the time our issues arise from within ourselves. It doesn't help that there is so much religious confusion out there already. We-none of us are God and have no right to condemn those who might be our brothers. If We are brothers it will be in spite of our theology not because of it.

I guess I just opened myself up for more criticism, like "universalism", which i blatantly deny. Jesus knows his own even when we don't!
Barnsweb

Canton, OH

#20 Mar 28, 2013
The divisions problem is over differences in doctrine - usually dividing what God meant to go together. Doctrines such as grace alone, faith alone, word alone, or differences on what man has come up with attempting to define God in the various aspects of His administration and economy of grace and truth are at the root of the issues. One break leads to another.

With so many fractures then there should be need for the glue that holds us together to be administered and hopefully do some healing as God allows. The primary 'glue' is love; first love for God and what He said matters, secondly, the example Jesus gave that He encouraged us to love each other as He first loved us.

So we can look for His examples and find that there were times people had differences - mainly prejudices, but not always - that He encouraged belieif in Him to bridge the gaps. Other times He soundly refuted false doctrine and hypocracy and called things to be what they are.

Three things lead the list in what we should be centering on:

1. Discipleship to Him.
2. Immersion into His name.
3. Keeping the commandments He gave to His disciples and that we are also to abide in the same ones - not look for new ones.

His primary teaching was to repent and prepare for the kingdom of God. Repenting is turning to do what God said we should do. This is to do whatever Jesus taught - which are the works meet to show repentance. Yes, works. Belief requires works. Repentance requires works. Obedience to the Lord requires works. And Jesus notes in Revelation that He is aware of our works and that they matter. No, Bobby, we are not saved by works, but we haven't repented until we have them and they are intergral to repentance - first to believe and obey the commandment of God with promise that is as true today as it was at Acts 2:38,39; then following the testimony of Jesus Christ given by His apostles - to be disciples indeed.

If God is true, there are going to be a lot of angry Evangelicals on the Day of the LORD when He tells them 'Depart from Me, I never knew you', and they realize they put too much trust in what the preacher said - instead of believing Jesus.

Truth matters and actually can trumph the love card - if II John 9-11 is true.

If the righteous are scarcely saved....

what of the rest?

If what Peter quoted from Moses in Acts 3:22,23 is correct - we should be going back to the basics of the love for Christ as taught in the original First Century Church, when they were actually disciples as Luke 1 records - they were being instructed about Jesus and His teachings and the Scripture He fullfilled, and looking for His return.

I know, I'm waisting my effort to say it again - and it even gets old for me to say it as it does you to hear it:-)

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