King's legacy still cause of debate

King's legacy still cause of debate

There are 1089 comments on the USA Today story from Jan 19, 2014, titled King's legacy still cause of debate. In it, USA Today reports that:

It is a large legacy that looms over the past five decades, from the prophetic "I Have a Dream" speech delivered during the March on Washington to his last campaign taking a stand for underpaid black sanitation workers in Memphis, the city where he was slain.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at USA Today.

Stag_R_Lee

Scottsdale, AZ

#779 Feb 27, 2014
This discussion is interesting and educational. I have no comment on King's personal economic bent, but I do believe that Hoover's belief was that individuals and groups supporting King were members of the far Left. In addition, rumors say that Hoover was bent on preventing King's "March on Washington." (Echoes of Selma) King's personal philosophy notwithstanding, did King-during this critical period--distance himself from Left wing groups?
.

This question seems especially pertinent as groups nominally referred to as "radical" were prominent in the news. Another problem I have is the number of "assassinations" occurring during the same period. The deaths of Malcolm X and Fred Hampton are two examples.(Burmingham Four never to be forgotten.) Another question would be, Was King's death the result of a coordinated campaign against perceived threats to the Establishment?
Timothy

Norfolk, VA

#780 Feb 27, 2014
Savant wrote:
<quoted text> In light of this, i sometimes wonder if Malcolm and Martin wouldn't have gotten together if both had lived at least another 3--5 years.
I seem to recall that James Cone records that they were feeling out the possibility of working together on some level. Some communication was beginning. But then Malcolm was killed.
There were differences between them that would not simply disappear. But they might have found some practical common grounds (at least involving mutual support) for working together. This would have made that fascist punk J. Edgar Hoover crap in his pants.
And it might have advanced the movement much further. Yes, BOTH men were anti-capitalist, though not Marxist. And both were exploring social alternatives, and thinking about the interrelatedness of of racial oppression and economic exploitation.
But Malcolm x moved further than did Dr. King on the issue of the liberation of women. I think King would have caught up, but had not done so at the time he was slain.
if we could have kept both of them until at least 1970, and kept their movements alive, how different might history be?
Exactly Brother.

Coretta Scott King said that Dr. King and Malcolm X were talking on the phone regularly. They could have a possible meeting in NYC by 1965 according to several sources. They want to collaborate with each other, but they disagreed on some issues. They did have common ground and they were converging. Malcolm X came to respect the human personality in all people and Dr. King came to realize that black self determination not just civil rights laws were key for human liberation. They were unified in being anti-capitalist, being pro-labor (yes, Malcolm X gave a famous pro-labor speech in the 1960's. He spoke at an organizing rally for Hospital Workers Local 1199 in New York City in 1962), they endorse human rights internationally, they wanted black self determination, and they wanted to promote the humanity plus dignity of black humanity.

We all wonder if they would of have lived. The poverty rate could be as low as 3-4 percent if they would of lived since they would not give up until revolutionary solutions came about. Malcolm X was more progressive than Dr. King on the issue of women. Malcolm X wanted a progressive society where women could achieve their rightful destinies in their own lives. The reactionaries murdered both men. If they lived longer, obviously the country would be in much better shape. Our environment would be better as Dr. King opposed polluted air. Malcolm X would use his strength to possibly end the Vietnam War earlier since the Vietnam War was a capitalist exercise of imperialism against people of color overseas. Each did not follow Marxism, but they were anti-capitalist as you have documented. We should continue to fight for justice. This is a struggle against class oppression and racial oppression.

Since: Aug 09

Saint Louis, MO

#781 Feb 27, 2014
Savant wrote:
<quoted text> I studied King,and you have not.
B!tch how do you what I have not done?
Savant wrote:
<quoted text> You can't intelligently discuss King's legacy. You can only those who are down with King's legacy, and vilify the legacy itself. It's no coincidence that you're continuouly allied with white racists and reactionaries like Wally and M. It's not a coincidence that you support the Tea Party and are a fan of FoxNews. Their agenda is your REAL agenda. You're a fake and a phony. And if you ever are in Africa amidst an African revolution, then you will probably be the first traitor they shoot.
This crap is not worth responding to. Keep this up, b!tch and I will put your azzzzz on ignore.

Since: Aug 09

Saint Louis, MO

#782 Feb 27, 2014
Savant wrote:
<quoted text>
By the way, I was at some of the Occupy gatherings in Baltimore and Washington, DC. Oh yes, and so were some PROGRESSIVE Muslim friends and allies.(Though Barros seems to forget this, all Muslims are not reactionaries like Assdurratin and the Taliban thugs).
And only a RETARD could miss the fact that the issue--CENTRAL ISSUE--was plainly and simply ECONOMIC JUSTICE. The sexual (surtout homosexual) obsessions Assdurratin attributes to the Occupy Movement are really his OWN obsession projected onto others.
There's no way you could attend any of the general assemblies or marches, or simply read the placards, and not see that it was about ECON9MIC RIGHTS of COMMON PEOPLE, and resistance to corporate power and plutocracy. To miss that you'd have to be stupid, or maybe listening to much too much FoxNews(or both).
And economic rights, as I pointed out to some Occupy gatherings in Bmore, was the last great phase of King's legacy, the unfinished agenda.
And if you knew about King's plans for the Poor Peoples Campaign---I do--then you'd know about his intent to place before Congress a demand for certain economic rights to ALL Americans. He called it the ECONOMIC BILL OF RIGHTS. I proposed in an address to some Occupiers in Bmore that they consider studying and taking up once more that unfinished agenda.
Today, that agenda seems to be emerging in the Moral Mondays movment that has spread from North Carolina to other parts of the South. And other things are happening in the REAL world while Assddurratin dabbles with is Convention Peoples Party.
No matter how you frame your "occupy" rhetoric, it had no program. Nobody seemed to know where it was headed. It was a protest but not a program. The only thing that impressed me about it was homosexual sex and urinating in public, public indecency of all kind.

“GREAT OBAMA GLOBAL DEPRESSION”

Since: Mar 10

Huntington, NY

#783 Feb 28, 2014
Big Knob

United States

#784 Feb 28, 2014
Dr. King's dream was hijacked by white liberals, and black intergrationist, and they convinced bp that the federal government is suppose to look out for you and you must always turn to wht-folks for help. Therefore you've wasted 40 yrs focusing on racism and what wp think instead of self-reliance, business, and working the system to make sure that our interest and concerns be looked at and addressed from a proactive perspective, successful people world wide use their culture, and not culture assimulation to get ahead. As Jim Brown said " I fought for civil rights because I wanted my rights, and not to be intergrated with nobody" why do you bp always have to go to somebody else, why dont they come to you for change........
Katrina

Tempe, AZ

#785 Feb 28, 2014
Is it true that Stanley Levison and Rev. Archibald wrote most of this speech

and not Rev. Michael King?

“Yes WE Can! Yes we Will!”

Since: Jul 07

Baltimore, Md.

#786 Mar 1, 2014
Stag_R_Lee wrote:
This discussion is interesting and educational. I have no comment on King's personal economic bent, but I do believe that Hoover's belief was that individuals and groups supporting King were members of the far Left. In addition, rumors say that Hoover was bent on preventing King's "March on Washington." (Echoes of Selma) King's personal philosophy notwithstanding, did King-during this critical period--distance himself from Left wing groups?
.
This question seems especially pertinent as groups nominally referred to as "radical" were prominent in the news. Another problem I have is the number of "assassinations" occurring during the same period. The deaths of Malcolm X and Fred Hampton are two examples.(Burmingham Four never to be forgotten.) Another question would be, Was King's death the result of a coordinated campaign against perceived threats to the Establishment?
Check out THEOLOGIAN OF SYNTHESIS: THE DIALECTICAL METHOD OF MARTIN LUTHER KING, JR by George Russell Seay, Jr. You needn't buy it. Just find it on the net and read it for free. In fact, you can print it for free if you're able to print an entire thesis of about 200--250 pages.
It was a doctoral thesis done by Seay for the School of Religion at Vanderbilt University (where I studied Philosophy). Very good, and philosophically informed. A number of brother philosophers and I were discussing it at Bmore's December APA conference. I've points of disagreement, but it's mainly solid.(He ought to have cleaned up all the typos before posting it, however).

“Yes WE Can! Yes we Will!”

Since: Jul 07

Baltimore, Md.

#787 Mar 1, 2014
Abdurratln wrote:
<quoted text>
B!tch how do you what I have not done?
<quoted text>
This crap is not worth responding to. Keep this up, b!tch and I will put your azzzzz on ignore.
I repeat that I've studied Dr. King and you have not.
How do I know this. Your own posts reveal as much.

“Yes WE Can! Yes we Will!”

Since: Jul 07

Baltimore, Md.

#788 Mar 1, 2014
Big Knob wrote:
Dr. King's dream was hijacked by white liberals, and black intergrationist, and they convinced bp that the federal government is suppose to look out for you and you must always turn to wht-folks for help. Therefore you've wasted 40 yrs focusing on racism and what wp think instead of self-reliance, business, and working the system to make sure that our interest and concerns be looked at and addressed from a proactive perspective, successful people world wide use their culture, and not culture assimulation to get ahead. As Jim Brown said " I fought for civil rights because I wanted my rights, and not to be intergrated with nobody" why do you bp always have to go to somebody else, why dont they come to you for change........
Read WHY WE CAN'T WAIT. You will be surprised to learn that Dr. King promoted civil rights, economic rights and even Affirmative Action (on BOTH race and class grounds).
The economic agenda was laid out more thoroughly in WHERE DO WE GO FROM HERE, CHAOS OR COMMUNITY? You might also find informative his TRUMPET OF CONSCIENCE.
Liberals and conservatives BOTH oversimplify King. King was actually to the left of both liberals and conservatives. However, that also means (since liberals are to the "left" of conservatives), that King was politically more distant from conservatives than from liberals.
Mainly, liberals weren't radical enough. King was a REVOLUTIONARY, albeit a nonviolent revolutionary Christian.

“Yes WE Can! Yes we Will!”

Since: Jul 07

Baltimore, Md.

#790 Mar 1, 2014
Cotton_Mouth wrote:
<quoted text>You've only read what they wanted you to know about mlk.
Until the sealed FBI records are released,
...no one can really know the truth about him.
There are six or seven volumes of King's papers published by the King Papers Project located in UCLA, under the editorial leadership of Clayborne Carson. And thee is much work available even to people who don't have (as I do) access to those volumes.
There's enough available for people to discern KIng's fundamental philosophical commitments and social vision.
I suspect that the FBI files probably contain concealed info on the agency's clandestine activities against King and the Movement. They might even reveal that the FBI had a hand in the assassination of Dr. King.
It's unlikely that we will discover in FBI files much about the philosophical thought and social vision of King that isn't already available.

Since: Aug 09

Saint Louis, MO

#792 Mar 3, 2014
Savant wrote:
<quoted text> I repeat that I've studied Dr. King and you have not.
How do I know this. Your own posts reveal as much.
Dear Sister, you do not know what I have studied.

Since: Aug 09

Saint Louis, MO

#793 Mar 4, 2014
How can that sissy be a philosopher based on all the lies she tells day in and day out? How can anyone think straight when all they do is lie and brag about being a big shot when the only thing big about them is their watermelon head. Sometimes I feel sorry for that sissy b!tch.
Timothy

Norfolk, VA

#794 Mar 4, 2014
Savant wrote:
<quoted text> Check out THEOLOGIAN OF SYNTHESIS: THE DIALECTICAL METHOD OF MARTIN LUTHER KING, JR by George Russell Seay, Jr. You needn't buy it. Just find it on the net and read it for free. In fact, you can print it for free if you're able to print an entire thesis of about 200--250 pages.
It was a doctoral thesis done by Seay for the School of Religion at Vanderbilt University (where I studied Philosophy). Very good, and philosophically informed. A number of brother philosophers and I were discussing it at Bmore's December APA conference. I've points of disagreement, but it's mainly solid.(He ought to have cleaned up all the typos before posting it, however).
I just read much of the work online Brother. It is classic material. Seay did his thing. It outlined much of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.’s life and his diverse influences from relatives to college professors. Dr. King certainly loved Coretta Scott King's intelligence, beauty, and determination against injustice. It showed that Dr. King’s experience in Morehouse caused him to be more militant in his philosophical and ideological viewpoints. His theological views are rather progressive even by today’s standards. He had critiques about capitalism and communism. I think his critiques on capitalism were well founded. He opposed Communism since he felt that Communism suppressed too much of individual freedoms from the freedom of speech to the freedom of press (he rejected Marx's rejection of a spiritual center while he acknowledged that Marx was right on some things). He loved collective power and the individual dignity of the human personality. Dr. King loved the views of Hegel in the sense he wanted to find solutions via the synthesis of opposite viewpoints. What was interesting was that he was a middle child like me. I am a middle child. That literature captures the intellectual strength of Dr. King and his diverse philosophical views too.

Since: Aug 09

Saint Louis, MO

#795 Mar 4, 2014
Timothy wrote:
<quoted text>
I just read much of the work online Brother. It is classic material. Seay did his thing. It outlined much of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.’s life and his diverse influences from relatives to college professors. Dr. King certainly loved Coretta Scott King's intelligence, beauty, and determination against injustice. It showed that Dr. King’s experience in Morehouse caused him to be more militant in his philosophical and ideological viewpoints. His theological views are rather progressive even by today’s standards. He had critiques about capitalism and communism... He loved collective power and the individual dignity of the human personality. Dr. King loved the views of Hegel in the sense he wanted to find solutions via the synthesis of opposite viewpoints. What was interesting was that he was a middle child like me. I am a middle child. That literature captures the intellectual strength of Dr. King and his diverse philosophical views too.
I think you and Sevant are a bit off base. I did not read much of that thesis. It leaves me high and dry.

But I disagree that MLK was any kind of Marxist. All of his views had been expressed by earlier African theologians and preachers, many of them self-educated or largely un-educated. For example, I already mentioned Rev. James Meacham an early founder of the First African Baptist Church in St. Louis. He wrote a book called An Address to the Colored Citizen of the Unites States. That was back in the slavery times. And the book was very, very progressive. Meacham was a conductor on the Underground Railroad.

Plus, there are such books as David Walker's Appeal. I do not remember David Walker's words and have not read him recently. There was also Nat Turner's Confession. There were many other documents from the early African Baptists. It is important that we know this and do our research accordingly. It is absolutely methodologically incorrect to assume that any African leader, much less a Baptist preacher, was more influenced by Marxism than by his own predecessors in the African Baptist Church. For one thing, both of you have failed to mention the fact that at least three generations of Kings were Baptist preachers. I think Coretta Scott's family also had a preaching tradition.

I have done some very limited research along the line of the historical foundation of African theology. So, I know that it is much, much deeper than MLK, Jr. and Sr. The first missionary abroad was an African Baptist who went to Jamaica. We also started the African Baptist Church in Canada. So a lot of research needs to be done. And recently more and more research is being done. I have personally broken new grounds as a historian.

Having read Bishop Albert Cleage years ago and glanced at Rev. Cone (I do not recall his first name but it can be easily looked up) I know African theology is much deeper than MLK alone. Alexander Crommell was a preacher and a major Pan-Africanist thinker before the term Pan-Africanism even existed. Some of the founders of ANC were preachers, some of whom studied at Tuskegee. A number of Ghanaians were major thinkers. Kwame Nkrumah was merely the greatest of them all.

And when we read Nkrumah, we must get his political message. But a sub-theme in all of Nkrumah's writings is Christianity, specifically African theology. Nkrumah was not a Marxist as much as MLK was not a Marxist.

Another very important factor in African theology is the Coptic Church and the Ethiopian Orthodox Church. I have recently learned that the church in Africa made a serious and major break with the western church at the foundation of Christianity. Thus, there was never a doctrine that justified slavery in African Christian thought as there is and was in the Western Church. We can learn all of this without any references to Marxism-Leninism. Savant is a heir-brained moron in my opinion. And I have tried to avoid saying this. But he is much too arrogant for his own good.
Timothy

Norfolk, VA

#796 Mar 4, 2014
Abdurratln wrote:
<quoted text>
I think you and Sevant are a bit off base. I did not read much of that thesis. It leaves me high and dry.
But I disagree that MLK was any kind of Marxist. All of his views had been expressed by earlier African theologians and preachers, many of them self-educated or largely un-educated. For example, I already mentioned Rev. James Meacham an early founder of the First African Baptist Church in St. Louis. He wrote a book called An Address to the Colored Citizen of the Unites States. That was back in the slavery times. And the book was very, very progressive. Meacham was a conductor on the Underground Railroad.
Plus, there are such books as David Walker's Appeal. I do not remember David Walker's words and have not read him recently. There was also Nat Turner's Confession. There were many other documents from the early African Baptists. It is important that we know this and do our research accordingly. It is absolutely methodologically incorrect to assume that any African leader, much less a Baptist preacher, was more influenced by Marxism than by his own predecessors in the African Baptist Church. For one thing, both of you have failed to mention the fact that at least three generations of Kings were Baptist preachers. I think Coretta Scott's family also had a preaching tradition.
I have done some very limited research along the line of the historical foundation of African theology. So, I know that it is much, much deeper than MLK, Jr. and Sr. The first missionary abroad was an African Baptist who went to Jamaica. We also started the African Baptist Church in Canada. So a lot of research needs to be done. And recently more and more research is being done. I have personally broken new grounds as a historian.
Having read Bishop Albert Cleage years ago and glanced at Rev. Cone (I do not recall his first name but it can be easily looked up) I know African theology is much deeper than MLK alone. Alexander Crommell was a preacher and a major Pan-Africanist thinker before the term Pan-Africanism even existed. Some of the founders of ANC were preachers, some of whom studied at Tuskegee. A number of Ghanaians were major thinkers. Kwame Nkrumah was merely the greatest of them all.
And when we read Nkrumah, we must get his political message. But a sub-theme in all of Nkrumah's writings is Christianity, specifically African theology. Nkrumah was not a Marxist as much as MLK was not a Marxist.
Another very important factor in African theology is the Coptic Church and the Ethiopian Orthodox Church. I have recently learned that the church in Africa made a serious and major break with the western church at the foundation of Christianity. Thus, there was never a doctrine that justified slavery in African Christian thought as there is and was in the Western Church. We can learn all of this without any references to Marxism-Leninism. Savant is a heir-brained moron in my opinion. And I have tried to avoid saying this. But he is much too arrogant for his own good.
Your information is interesting and excellent except for the Marxism part. I never wrote that Dr. King was a Marxist. I did write that he agreed with some of the views of Marx and disagreed with his other views. I did write that he was a democratic socialist, which is fully documented. That is the point. Also, I understand the Baptist background of Coretta Scott King and Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. Yet, Dr. King was never some reactionary and neither was Coretta Scott King.

Since: Aug 09

Saint Louis, MO

#797 Mar 4, 2014
Timothy wrote:
<quoted text>
Your information is interesting and excellent except for the Marxism part. I never wrote that Dr. King was a Marxist. I did write that he agreed with some of the views of Marx and disagreed with his other views. I did write that he was a democratic socialist, which is fully documented. That is the point. Also, I understand the Baptist background of Coretta Scott King and Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. Yet, Dr. King was never some reactionary and neither was Coretta Scott King.
I know nowhere where MLK ever claimed to be a "democratic socialist". Show me chapter and verse.
Timothy

Norfolk, VA

#798 Mar 4, 2014
Abdurratln wrote:
<quoted text>
I know nowhere where MLK ever claimed to be a "democratic socialist". Show me chapter and verse.
"...I imagine you already know that I am much more socialistic in my economic theory than capitalistic...[Capitalism] started out with a noble and high motive... but like most human systems it fell victim to the very thing it was revolting against. So today capitalism has out-lived its usefulness..." (Dr. Martin Luther King's Letter to Coretta Scott, July 18, 1952)

"...You can’t talk about solving the economic problem of the Negro without talking about billions of dollars. You can’t talk about ending the slums without first saying profit must be taken out of slums. You’re really tampering and getting on dangerous ground because you are messing with folk then. You are messing with captains of industry…. Now this means that we are treading in difficult water, because it really means that we are saying that something is wrong… with capitalism…. There must be a better distribution of wealth and maybe America must move toward a democratic socialism..." (Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., Frogmore, S.C. November 14, 1966).

".. "I imagine you already know that I am much more socialistic in my economic theory than capitalistic..." (Letter to Coretta reproduced in The Autobiography of Martin Luther King, Jr., ed. by Clayborne Carson (New York: Time Warner Co., 1998), 36. On Robeson and the Progressive Party see Martin Bauml Duberman, Paul Robeson, A Biography (New York: Ballantine Books, 1989), and Curtis D. MacDougall, Gideon's Army, 3 vols.(New York: Marzani and Munsell, 1965).

It is obvious that Dr. King was anti-capitalist and anyone saying otherwise is wrong. It is not a sin to disagree with capitalism at all and it is not a sin to disagree with Communism too (as Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. did as well). Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. was never a reactionary at all neither was Malcolm X for that matter.

Since: Aug 09

Saint Louis, MO

#799 Mar 4, 2014
Timothy wrote:
<quoted text>
"...I imagine you already know that I am much more socialistic in my economic theory than capitalistic...[Capitalism] started out with a noble and high motive... but like most human systems it fell victim to the very thing it was revolting against. So today capitalism has out-lived its usefulness..." (Dr. Martin Luther King's Letter to Coretta Scott, July 18, 1952)
"...You can’t talk about solving the economic problem of the Negro without talking about billions of dollars. You can’t talk about ending the slums without first saying profit must be taken out of slums. You’re really tampering and getting on dangerous ground because you are messing with folk then. You are messing with captains of industry…. Now this means that we are treading in difficult water, because it really means that we are saying that something is wrong… with capitalism…. There must be a better distribution of wealth and maybe America must move toward a democratic socialism..." (Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., Frogmore, S.C. November 14, 1966).
".. "I imagine you already know that I am much more socialistic in my economic theory than capitalistic..." (Letter to Coretta reproduced in The Autobiography of Martin Luther King, Jr., ed. by Clayborne Carson (New York: Time Warner Co., 1998), 36. On Robeson and the Progressive Party see Martin Bauml Duberman, Paul Robeson, A Biography (New York: Ballantine Books, 1989), and Curtis D. MacDougall, Gideon's Army, 3 vols.(New York: Marzani and Munsell, 1965).
It is obvious that Dr. King was anti-capitalist and anyone saying otherwise is wrong. It is not a sin to disagree with capitalism at all and it is not a sin to disagree with Communism too (as Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. did as well). Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. was never a reactionary at all neither was Malcolm X for that matter.
No, brother. MLK said claimed to be "democratic socialist". He is merely stating that something is wrong with the American capitalist way of doing things. He recognizes that people get rich off of ghettos and poverty. He said "MAYBE" democratic socialism. That is a very weak way to claim socialism. he never claimed it and never proposed it as a solution.
Timothy

Norfolk, VA

#800 Mar 4, 2014
Abdurratln wrote:
<quoted text>
No, brother. MLK said claimed to be "democratic socialist". He is merely stating that something is wrong with the American capitalist way of doing things. He recognizes that people get rich off of ghettos and poverty. He said "MAYBE" democratic socialism. That is a very weak way to claim socialism. he never claimed it and never proposed it as a solution.
He never reject democratic socialism outright. In retrospect, he never publicly said that he wanted a total socialist solution for his plans. I will give you that. He still was not a reactionary.

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