Dierbergs to close Clocktower store

Dierbergs to close Clocktower store

There are 79 comments on the St. Louis Post-Dispatch story from Sep 27, 2007, titled Dierbergs to close Clocktower store. In it, St. Louis Post-Dispatch reports that:

“Wal-Mart has to play some aspect in our minds”

"Where can I go to protest?," asks loyal Dierberg's customer Richard Bromley, of Florissant, to Assissant Store Manager Ron Schonfoff upon learning the news the store will close November 30th. via St. Louis Post-Dispatch

Join the discussion below, or Read more at St. Louis Post-Dispatch.

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So Sad

United States

#61 Mar 23, 2008
StChuckMO wrote:
In St. Charles though it is still redneck enough that people won't sit back and take it this time... no matter how loud the blacks want to yell. Couple that with the fact that many St. Charles residents still have a bitter tast in their mouths due to what happened in North County in the last 10 - 20 years... you might see more fighting back this time. Also, the blacks don't realize this, and probably should before they move out here, but there is a LOT of institutionalized racism out here... and we like it that way. And you can forget about the GhettoLink and the bus lines coming out here, because if we have to vote on funing it, we'll surely shoot it down every time.
<quoted text>
Redneck and proud of it!

It is that kind of inept thinking that is turning the St. Louis region into a corporate junkyard. One of the biggest complaints I hear from business professionals is the high degree of racial polarization in this region. In this day and age, multinational companies are looking to attract the top talent. You don’t think they are not aware of the St. Louis racial climate?
To maintain your utopia, The “GhettoLink” will be needed in your area if you don’t want the blacks living next door to you as they commute to their low paying service jobs in your area from the hood and the cost of gas eats more into your take home pay. On the other hand, I think you have enough rednecks in StChuck to fill the demand. You can only move so far out from the urban core before you realize your two to four hour commute is asinine. I would much rather have those times to spend with my family. As a gift to your children, you can vote for mass transit now so they won’t have to pay quadruple the cost later due to the fact that we will have to import most of construction materials from China and other counties and the Euro will be the standard world currency.
Longhorns96

United States

#62 Mar 23, 2008
So let me get this straight, even after off duty cops were hired, you still had snatch and grab operations that were killing store profits?

*** The store had 2 entrances and there was a wall between the two front rooms of the store. The cop could not be in both rooms at once and he was also supposed to move throughout the entire store to make his presence known.

The merchandise happened to be T-shirts that probably wholesale for two dollars or less (Remember made in China)? This cut into the profit margin to the point where the store was operating at a loss?

*** You are working on your own assumptions now. Only if you are Wal-Mart does everything come from China and cost $1 -$2 at wholesale. Costs for polos and active wear are MUCH more than that because labor in Hong Kong and Vietnam (where much of it is made) is more skilled so of course it costs more. Many t-shirts and jeans are made in Mexico which is even more expensive than that. I work at the corporate level in retail so I have good first hand knowledge of what we pay wholesale as a retailer.
Yet I shop at the Galleria where stores have the same floor plan and merchandise set up with no noticeable security. I would say something was amiss like the store failed to catch the other 75% of shoplifters who we can only assume were all black because they were never caught. I would be more willing to accept the explanation that the upscale clientele targeted by A&F stopped going to the Galleria having the notion that there were too many blacks at the mall and
therefore store profits dropped off.

*** You could be right here... but I doubt it. Granted I did catch many white shoplifters, I caught more black ones. I would say it was a 3 to 1 black to white ratio on shoplifters I caught.
Longhorns96

United States

#63 Mar 23, 2008
"I actually worked at Jamestown mall back in the late 80s as a teenager. The upper management made us go through training on how to spot suspicious customers (race excluded) and other theft ring tactics. Our store had a very good shrinkage rate. There were a lot of Blacks shopping at the mall then although I can’t say they were from the same community element. You still had River Roads, St. Louis Center and Northland.
Indoor malls today are like night clubs, they have to constantly reinvent themselves to keep patrons coming or they go to the hip and exciting new mall. South County Center was in the same predicament a couple years ago. During this state of a mall’s lifecycle, management has to decide if it worth reinvestment considering factors such as median income and age of the surrounding population.
It just so happens that a significant percentage of the AA community is concentrated in the former. It is economics plain and simple."

*** Thank you so MUCH for adding to my case! I completely FORGOT about River Roads and Northland and how the presence of blacks and black crime destroyed these two malls as well!! Also your theory that Northwest and Jamestown were not re-invested in and failed and were only coincidentally in black areas doesn't even hold water. If that is TRULY the case Jamestown should be very successful right now. It was renovated in 1995 when JC Penney, Famous-Barr, and the Food Court were added. The mall got even more renovation at the end of the 1990's when the Cinema was added. Chesterfield (which was built at the same time as Jamestown in 1977 by the same developer) was remodeled and a Famous-Barr and Food Court were added there too at the same time in 1995. Northwest was enclosed and remodeled at the end of the 1980's and grand re-opened at the beginning of 1990. In comparison, Galleria was grand re-opened only a year later in 1991. Setting Jamestown and Chesterfield equal and Northwest and Galleria equal based on size and renovation dates, the North County malls should not be failing and should be doing just as well as Galleria and Chesterfield- but they aren't, and you can attribute that to blacks. Northwest's inline (smaller mall specialty store spaces) are at about 90% vacancy, Dillard's is now a clearance outlet, and the cinema and family arcade are both gone. You can pinpoint the decline at Northwest to Christmas Eve 1994 when a gang-related shooting happened INSIDE the Famous-Barr there. As for Jamestown Mall, it lost Dillard's last fall and JC Penney made their store a Clearance Outlet only 4 years after they moved the store to Jamestown from Grandview Plaza. If you HONESTLY think that blacks did not ruin Northwest and Jamestown (just like River Roads and Northland before them) you should change your handle on here from "So Sad" to "So Naive". This is not a case of these malls not being invested in... CONSIDERABLE investment was pumped into them both.
You shouldn't argue retail with me. I am a veteran in the industry... just like I wouldn't want to argue computer science with you.
So Sad

United States

#64 Mar 24, 2008
Longhorns96 wrote:
*** You are working on your own assumptions now. Only if you are Wal-Mart does everything come from China and cost $1 -$2 at wholesale. Costs for polos and active wear are MUCH more than that because labor in Hong Kong and Vietnam (where much of it is made) is more skilled so of course it costs more. Many t-shirts and jeans are made in Mexico which is even more expensive than that. I work at the corporate level in retail so I have good first hand knowledge of what we pay wholesale as a retailer.
Are you sure about items costing more from Vietnam?
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php...
According to emergingtextiles.com , the unit value per dozen jeans was $86.00 for Mexico and $81.00 for China in 2006 so we are talking roughly $7.00 per pair for Mexico and $6.75 per pair for China wholesale. Not a significant difference to argue over in terms of per store stock.

My point is that you can’t say with 100% confidence that the store closing was due to theft black or white although it could have been a tipping point. I believe the store management could have taken better measures to curtail theft since you indicate it was the predominate issue.
Longhorns96 wrote:
*** You could be right here... but I doubt it. Granted I did catch many white shoplifters, I caught more black ones. I would say it was a 3 to 1 black to white ratio on shoplifters I caught.
If I am looking for a black snake eventually I will find one and if I am looking for a white snake eventually I will find one, but I tend to like black snakes.
Targets

Saint Louis, MO

#65 Mar 24, 2008
It is rare that one factor is the lone cause of a major change.
But one factor can easily be the scapegoat though.
It's much easier to aim at one target.
Mills

Fenton, MO

#66 Mar 24, 2008
is everyone forgetting about the Mills? I use to go to Jamestown all the time, now I go the Mills as does pretty much everyone else I know. I live in Florissant, and its just as fast to get there than Jamestown by just hopping on 270 to 370 and your there.

Since: May 07

Florissant MO

#67 Mar 24, 2008
The problem with the mills is they dont have a Macy's or a Dillards, or a Sears, Pennys or any type of store like that. If thats where you like to shop then you wont be going to the mills, you'll be going to Jamestown (at least for Macy's and Sears or Pennys), seeing as the mall part of Jamestown isnt worth the leg work to walk through, a lot of people decide to cross the bridge to midrivers, where there is something actually in the mall itself too. Dont get me wrong, I like the mills but it seems like its not doing so great either. I'm actually waiting for that Nascar store to crash. Every time I'm in there there is less and less. There are a ton of empty store fronts there, and the "teen" problem on the weekends is rediculous.
Mills

Fenton, MO

#68 Mar 24, 2008
there are not "tons" of empty store fronts, and its pretty crowded whenever i am there. cabelas is a pretty big draw and has really helped the Mills, plus a waterpark and hotel are being built there as well. there is also a sears there, though i think it is an outlet.

your right that nascar thing will probably shut down eventually, but the mall seems to be doing well when i am there. and there is now a teen curfew and havent been any problems i have heard since that was put in place.

Since: May 07

Florissant MO

#69 Mar 24, 2008
I guess it depends on how you look at it. I was at the Nashville, TN mills a couple years back. It was a monster compared to this place we have here. It made ours look like River Roads in comparison. There were a lot more "special" attractions like the rain forest cafe and things like that. Ours just seems like its a few big name places and then a bunch of locally owned places calling their store at the mills an outlet but charging the same prices as their other locations. Like I said, I dont have a problem with the mills, I just think it can be better than what it is. Cabellas is definitley helping draw a crowd, there just needs to be more places of interest inside the mall. It just seems like everything else "big" st.louis has to offer. Its awesome to us, until we see what the other cities get.

Since: May 07

Florissant MO

#70 Mar 24, 2008
I should also mention it has a lot to do with how the place is promoted. If the people at the mills st.louis did as good as a job as the ones in Nashville and other locations we would have a monster too. It has nothing to do with how its built, but how its imaged and promoted and how they get people to come.

“Voice of the Valley”

Since: Aug 07

Valley of Flowers

#71 Mar 24, 2008
Mills wrote:
there are not "tons" of empty store fronts, and its pretty crowded whenever i am there. cabelas is a pretty big draw and has really helped the Mills, plus a waterpark and hotel are being built there as well. there is also a sears there, though i think it is an outlet.
your right that nascar thing will probably shut down eventually, but the mall seems to be doing well when i am there. and there is now a teen curfew and havent been any problems i have heard since that was put in place.
The Mills is a mess.

The only thing worth going there for are the stores you can access directly from the parking lot. Get in, and get out.

The mall is just always teaming with young people who's parents have dropped them, or bused them down to be babysat.

The security and curfew is a joke. I've seen adults walk in with 7 kids. Go straight to the food court and sit down while the kid's go running off through the mall unattended.

None of this is the Mall's fault. Or even the kids fault really. There just aren't things geared for kids to do anymore.

I agree with Crabman, it seems they are moving stores around and hiding stuff with massive display windows where stores should be.

Whoever sold Cabela's on this place should be the Salesman of the Year. This guy should be giving speeches like Zig Ziglar because that dude can sell.

Still it is a step up from Jamestown, if you're shopping for knock off stuff that didn't sell at the more popular malls in America.
msgs

Florissant, MO

#72 Mar 24, 2008
Longhorns96 wrote:
"I actually worked at Jamestown mall back in the late 80s as a teenager....
If you HONESTLY think that blacks did not ruin Northwest and Jamestown (just like River Roads and Northland before them) you should change your handle on here from "So Sad" to "So Naive". This is not a case of these malls not being invested in... CONSIDERABLE investment was pumped into them both.
You shouldn't argue retail with me. I am a veteran in the industry... just like I wouldn't want to argue computer science with you.
I agree with nearly every thing you said other than the part about considerable investment being pumped into both. I know that in the past, yes these malls were, but not lately. While Chesterfield and the Galleria have been pretty well updated, remodeled, added onto, etc. Jamestown and Northwest have had very little if any of that stuff done within the past few years. Chesterfield just got a theatre and new food court not too long ago. Galleria just had some renovations done too, and is going through more now. The last thing I remember Jamestown going through was the addition to the Famous Barr (Macy's) and the Food court, that was quite a few years back. I cant even remember anything being done with N.W. Plaza since it was renovated. Meanwhile other area malls, chesterfield, west county, galleria all had extensive add ons, renovations etc. I think I just said my point twice, sorry.
Anyway, that was the only thing i disagree with you on. I am not prejiduce or anything for those thinking of calling me that, but the owners of these places know them better than the general public. If an owner has two malls, one is doing really well, not being robbed, stores arent going out of business left and right while the other mall has these problems or similiar ones I am willing to bet they'll invest in the one without the problems. All they can do with the other one is try to make it a better investment without spending a tone of money.
ps-I'm not arguing with you. Im sure you know your stuff.
orion

AOL

#73 Mar 24, 2008
msgs wrote:
<quoted text>
I agree with nearly every thing you said other than the part about considerable investment being pumped into both. I know that in the past, yes these malls were, but not lately. While Chesterfield and the Galleria have been pretty well updated, remodeled, added onto, etc. Jamestown and Northwest have had very little if any of that stuff done within the past few years. Chesterfield just got a theatre and new food court not too long ago. Galleria just had some renovations done too, and is going through more now. The last thing I remember Jamestown going through was the addition to the Famous Barr (Macy's) and the Food court, that was quite a few years back. I cant even remember anything being done with N.W. Plaza since it was renovated. Meanwhile other area malls, chesterfield, west county, galleria all had extensive add ons, renovations etc. I think I just said my point twice, sorry.
Anyway, that was the only thing i disagree with you on. I am not prejiduce or anything for those thinking of calling me that, but the owners of these places know them better than the general public. If an owner has two malls, one is doing really well, not being robbed, stores arent going out of business left and right while the other mall has these problems or similiar ones I am willing to bet they'll invest in the one without the problems. All they can do with the other one is try to make it a better investment without spending a tone of money.
ps-I'm not arguing with you. Im sure you know your stuff.
In the late 90s, JMS got FB, penneys, the food court and a new area of stores around the FB as well as the expanded 14 screen cinema. I would cal this a considerable investment.

Shopping centers will reflect the socio demographics of the community they serve.

Even with the addition of the big new expensive homes along Lindberg, the mall is still sinking.

The conclusion seems to be that even middle and upper middle class blacks will not support first rate retailers. Just look at what JMS is turning into-empty storefronts and black ethnic merchandise.

If anyone has any information on malls in other areas of the country that have a predominately black customer base I would like to hear about them.

Its just that looking at things from the st Louis perspective we have along list of shopping areas and malls that deterioated and eventually closed when their customer base shifted from predom. white to predom black.

Wellston-Normandy Shopping center at Lucas and Hunt and Nat Bridge-Riverroads-Northland-NW P-JMS-Famous Barr southtown at Kingshiway and Chippewa-retail area along W. Florissant in the city of st louis, Jennings, Dellwood and Ferguson are all examples.

The one example I can think of of Mall failure where race did not seem to be a factor is Crestwood Plaza [where the big stores used to be!!]

The Crestwood area is undergoing somewhat of an aging transition of the pop with the RC grade school at St Elizabeth of Hungary closing a few years ago.
orion

AOL

#74 Mar 24, 2008
Crestwood is also facing potential severe financial problems because of overspending and declining sales tax revenues.

What surplus they have is gone and they have to borrow money-hope flomo wont be in this predicament.

CWP was also squeezed out by SOCO Mall and the new WCS
msgs

Florissant, MO

#75 Mar 24, 2008
"In the late 90s, JMS got FB, penneys, the food court and a new area of stores around the FB as well as the expanded 14 screen cinema. I would cal this a considerable investment"

I realize that. My point is that this happened "in the late 90's". Other malls since then, mainly the ones we are discussing were updated then also from what I understand, and again not to long ago. Jamestown was not. There is a lot of catching up to do for jamestown simply because the other malls kept getting updated, while the last update for jamestown was "in the late 90s".
So Sad

United States

#76 Mar 24, 2008
orion wrote:
<quoted text>
The conclusion seems to be that even middle and upper middle class blacks will not support first rate retailers. Just look at what JMS is turning into-empty storefronts and black ethnic merchandise.
The middle and upper middle class blacks in North County are spending their money at the Galleria, Chesterfield Mall, Alton Square, Mid Rivers, and the Mills Mall. There are some bargain hunters that shop at the Jamestown Mall anchor stores just like the white North County residents. They don’t want to be around the riffraff any more than the next person. It is good to see we can use more adjectives in front of the words black people. Now only if we can limit the generalizations when referring to a subgroup of thugs.
So Sad

United States

#77 Mar 24, 2008
msgs wrote:
"In the late 90s, JMS got FB, penneys, the food court and a new area of stores around the FB as well as the expanded 14 screen cinema. I would cal this a considerable investment"
I realize that. My point is that this happened "in the late 90's". Other malls since then, mainly the ones we are discussing were updated then also from what I understand, and again not to long ago. Jamestown was not. There is a lot of catching up to do for jamestown simply because the other malls kept getting updated, while the last update for jamestown was "in the late 90s".
http://www.carlyle-usa.com/jamestown_mall.htm #
msgs

Florissant, MO

#78 Mar 24, 2008
So Sad wrote:
Is this the plan that was withdrawn from stl county or is this a new plan? Thanks
Longhorns96

Kenilworth, NJ

#79 Mar 24, 2008
Chesterfield just got the update with Borders, the AMC theater, and the new food court in the last year and a half. Jamestown Mall's woes started WAY before that. Up until the new addition at Chesterfield opened, Jamestown and Chesterfield were pretty much even in terms of remodels and updates.
msgs wrote:
"In the late 90s, JMS got FB, penneys, the food court and a new area of stores around the FB as well as the expanded 14 screen cinema. I would cal this a considerable investment"
I realize that. My point is that this happened "in the late 90's". Other malls since then, mainly the ones we are discussing were updated then also from what I understand, and again not to long ago. Jamestown was not. There is a lot of catching up to do for jamestown simply because the other malls kept getting updated, while the last update for jamestown was "in the late 90s".

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