Legislation looks to create memorial at Port Chicago

Future generations could have a stronger chance of learning about historic events at the Port Chicago weapons station if a bill passed by the House of Representatives is signed into law.

[Wanglow]

Of course it is an anti-American professional politician who has no credentials but those of a common thief who sponsors such a "memorial" to convicted traitors, simply because they were black. These men refused a direct order and were found guilty after a millitary trial. The UCMJ is applied to those persons who are serving in our armed forces, and it is proper that these punishments, particularly in time of war, are enforced. These types of phony gestures are typical of the democrat mentality, which continues to try and appease blacks by making up non-sensical memorials, holidays and give-aways. How transparent and how shameful this bill, sponsored by a cheap politician who has never done anything positive for our town or state is to those many men who have died for their country, without refusing to do their job. These men were cowards and were convicted by a fair jury. My dead Viet Nam buddies have no such "honor" for defending our freedoms; just a cold un-forgotten grave. Miller is a disgusting example of everything bad about Washington.

[Nightfly]

So let’s recap shall we? Black sailors were picked to load ammunition because…..heck they were black!. Oh and by the way they received little or no training. Then the whole place blows up. Then they are ordered to repeat the same process! I have no idea why they refused that terrific offer, do you? That’s not being a coward that’s called surviving.

[Dean]

Wow! An angry liberal hater and a critic of white racism. Can't we do any better than that, folks? What is the purpose of the Port Chicago Memorial? What is the meaning of the Port Chicago explosion? It was not just Blacks that were killed at Port Chicago. And the "Mutiny" is not the only story that matters about the event. Why not look a little closer at the biggest event in Contra Costa County history to find out what really happened, how it happened, who it impacted and why it is a significant piece of American history. I've worked for years on the history. Take a deeper look at http://web.me.com/dean_mcleod.mac

[Shay58]

Dean wrote:

Wow! An angry liberal hater and a critic of white racism. Can't we do any better than that, folks? What is the purpose of the Port Chicago Memorial? What is the meaning of the Port Chicago explosion? It was not just Blacks that were killed at Port Chicago. And the "Mutiny" is not the only story that matters about the event. Why not look a little closer at the biggest event in Contra Costa County history to find out what really happened, how it happened, who it impacted and why it is a significant piece of American history. I've worked for years on the history. Take a deeper look at http://web.me.com/dean_mcleod.mac

This story has a Vallejo connection - many of the young sailors killed lived in the barracks on Mare Island and the "stop work" incident - not "mutiny" started here in Vallejo. Thanks for your link. Here's another link: www.usmm.org/portchicago.html
This link gives the names of most of those who were killed - many were 19 and 20 years old.

[Dean]

One of the things fascinating about the Port Chicago story, is that it really touches on the whole geography of the San Francisco Bay Area. I have spent a lot of time that the National Archives in San Bruno on this. One of the significant understatements in all the media accounts about the explosion was that it was felt all the way to San Francisco. The fact is, that according to the Navy's record of damage claims, damage was incurred from Petaluma on the North, to San Mateo on the southwest, to Rio Vista in the east. My website has a copy of the Navy's blast zone map showing the two zones of damage.

[Shay58]

Dean wrote:

One of the things fascinating about the Port Chicago story, is that it really touches on the whole geography of the San Francisco Bay Area. I have spent a lot of time that the National Archives in San Bruno on this. One of the significant understatements in all the media accounts about the explosion was that it was felt all the way to San Francisco. The fact is, that according to the Navy's record of damage claims, damage was incurred from Petaluma on the North, to San Mateo on the southwest, to Rio Vista in the east. My website has a copy of the Navy's blast zone map showing the two zones of damage.

My father knew a lot of the men who died at Port Chicago - he was in boot camp at Naval Station Great Lakes with many of them.

[LaTrasha]

Notwithstanding any attempts at revisionist history the FACT remains that these men were US Navy personel and mutinied in time of war. They refused to carry out direct orders and were appropriately court-marshalled for cowardice and insurrection. There is no provision in time of war for millitary to pick and choose what orders they will or will not obey. There is no honor connected to these men, only shame, and it an insult to the thousand of Americans who died serving their country and following orders, regardless of the potential or likely outcome. It is obvious that these elected representitives are using race as a tool to pander to the weak-minded who have not the ability or desire to know the truth.

[Dean]

I'd love to hear the stories that your dad told. There are many sides to this whole event. First hand accounts are always the most moving and important. I'm also fascinated by the "why" of this story, and especially curious to dig deeper into the causes of the explosion.

[Dean]

Hi LaTrasha. One of the things that troubles me about our society is the tendency for shrillness. We are bombarded by it in the media. Let's slow down and talk about this. There can be no question, in a military or naval context, that refusing a lawful order is not a heroic act (in conventional terms). Go back to my post #3. What really happened? 320 men, black and white, died instantly that night 65 years ago. Were they heros? Were they cowards? Were they ignorant? Were they wise? Who were they? Were they obeying orders? Clearly, the answer is that they were honorably serving their country, blacks and whites, in one of the most inherently dangerous jobs in the war. So, the question is, who is being honored; those who died "heroically", or those who refused the order to go back to work?

[Nightfly]

Dean – you obviously know more about this story than a lot of folks here. Is that your web site? We’ll done, I’ll look through it further when I can. My reply of post #2 was mainly a rebuttal to our resident racist here, Wanglow. This event was a very tragic one for all involved and yes blacks and whites died that day. But as your site restates,“the refusal of replacement African-American stevedores to take up the ship loading task under the same unsafe conditions, and the subsequent race relations controversy that continues until today over the “mutiny”. The key words there are “the same unsafe conditions.” Can you imagine if our present day military tried that, using mostly black Americans?

Plus the other point is that I don’t think this legislation is aimed at glamorizing the so called “mutineers” it is to set up a memorial for this tragic, historical event.

[Shay58]

LaTrasha wrote:

Notwithstanding any attempts at revisionist history the FACT remains that these men were US Navy personel and mutinied in time of war. They refused to carry out direct orders and were appropriately court-marshalled for cowardice and insurrection. There is no provision in time of war for millitary to pick and choose what orders they will or will not obey. There is no honor connected to these men, only shame, and it an insult to the thousand of Americans who died serving their country and following orders, regardless of the potential or likely outcome. It is obvious that these elected representitives are using race as a tool to pander to the weak-minded who have not the ability or desire to know the truth.

Thank God for men like those men who stood up after the Port Chicago incident. Their bravery would eventually lead to all kinds of changes, including changes in who and how dangerous weaponry would be handled within the Navy. To follow bad laws - even in the military - doesn't make you a hero - it just makes you a bad follower. Read the history of this incident and stop just spouting off.

[Shay58]

Dean wrote:

I'd love to hear the stories that your dad told. There are many sides to this whole event. First hand accounts are always the most moving and important. I'm also fascinated by the "why" of this story, and especially curious to dig deeper into the causes of the explosion.

There are still a number of people here who remember the incident - many are very old should be talked to as soon as possible. One day I hope to meet you and I will share with you what my dad - and mom - told me. It's an interesting story.

[Dean]

Hi Shay,

I'm in no position to define heroism. As a follower of history, I've learned that we tend to impose our current, personal values to behavior that we think we know about. The difficulty of judging this is shown in a fairly good Meg Ryan movie "Courage Under Fire". Also, for most of my adult life I've wondered if an officer in a missile silo during the cold war refused a launch order, would it be heroic or cowardice. Any military person worth his or her salt would likely say the launch officer should be shot.
There were historical consequences of the P.C. explosion. There were consequences of the "mutiny" and trials. There were consequences to the town of Port Chicago. When one reads the contemporary documents of the events, it seems evident that officers and men at Port Chicago did the best they could under the war time stresses they faced. We know that just doing the job they did required some considerable bravery. I am struck by the accounts of the black and white sailors who climbed on top of burning cars full of explosives to put out the fires, and sitting here at my desk think of that as extraordinary bravery. Unless we have detailed first hand accounts of what went on in the minds of those who refused to go back to work, I think we should be careful of calling them heros. I think the fact is, after the explosion, everyone there was scared shitless. Most folks tend to refer to these events in generalities. Who has written a detailed, minute-by-minute account of the survivors from the docks?
One thing I am assured of by my wife, who retired as a Navy Captain after 27 years, including stints as executive officer of munition ships out of Concord Naval Weapons Station, that the refusal to obey the command to return to work did not constitute a mutiny. That being so, the trials would very likely not have progressed to the level they did, in a different context.

[Shay58]

Dean - I don't like using the term "hero" too much because nowadays it's used to describe people doing their jobs and not for performing heroic acts. But in this case the 50 men who were ultimately charged with the the so-called mutiny qualifiy as heroes in my opinion. You have to know what kind of military service they were dealing with then. The fact that so many blackk men had the disproportionate duty to stack dangerous munitions - my father did it at Mare Island - lets me know that their lives weren't valued in the same way. But that said, these 50 men loved their country -enough to stand up for what they thought was right and by doing that they helped bring about change including the eventual desegreagtion of the military. Thanks for your post - I will get a copy of your book.

[Wanglow]

If anyone really wants to know the truth is it readily available at Wikipedia. There you will note that the reason blacks were used mainly a laborers was (is) because they were unfit for more intellectually challenging work, not because they were black. This was as true then as it is roday. But the TRUTH is just a word that a few malcontents cannot or will not accept. A "Memorial" already exists at the Concord Naval Weapons Station ande has has no use in years; the chapel is falling down due to neglect and lack of interest. This phony professional politician now wants MORE MONEY to waste on a ridiculuous gesture. Oh, and "Heros"..........go get a dictionary (a big book of words..........

[Dean]

I spent 30 minutes responding to Shay58, and deleted it by mistake. Now comes Wanglow. I agreed with Shay58 that racism was undeniably part of the military during WW II. If you go to the Navy's historical site, you will see that this is an acknowledged part of their history. And there can be little question that the dramatic stand up of the Black survivors of the explosion, and the events that followed had a major impact and changed military and naval culture. If you think that the full truth is at Wikipedia, I'll go ahead and add more material to the site. Your anger is palpable, Wanglow. Clearly, you were a hero in Vietnam. I've stood at the Vietnam Memorial in Washington, D.C. with my wife, a retired Naval officer. It evoked powerful,but different emotions in each of us. My wife was filled with patriotism and love for those who died defending our country. I was filled with anger and grief for those who died because of the foolishness, pride and arrogance of old men.

The memorial at Port Chicago is not just for the Black men who died there, but for the white sailors, merchant marines, marines and civilians who died at the largest home front disaster of WWII. Rather than visceral hate, can not complex history be discussed by intelligent people? You weren't there. I wasn't there. It seems to me that the objective of the expansion of the memorial, to include historical material discussing all of the issues, is very important. My book contains little about the refusal to obey orders or the trial. They are covered in Robert Allen's book.

Port Chicago history is not just about the munitions loading facility. It is not just about the "mutiny". You would be amazed if you could get a feeling for the history of the town of the name, just outside the fences. While Wanglow was serving in Vietnam, many of the kids who lived at P.C. were along side him. They came home to find that the Navy had forced their families, their school, their churches, their businesses out of their town so that the Navy could expand its nuclear transhipment operations.

[SayWhat]

Shay58 wrote:

<quoted text>This story has a Vallejo connection - many of the young sailors killed lived in the barracks on Mare Island and the "stop work" incident - not "mutiny" started here in Vallejo. Thanks for your link. Here's another link: www.usmm.org/portchicago.html
This link gives the names of most of those who were killed - many were 19 and 20 years old.

"Stop Work" incident not "Mutiny"...So Shay58, I suppose that during the Rodney King riots in Atlanta, Chicago, Los Angeles and New York those folks were not "Looting" they were just "Redistributing Wealth"?.

[Wanglow]

Funny how small minds throw around words like "hate" and "palpable anger" when they have no intelligent response when someone provides facts. Wanglow hates no one except those who aim to PROFIT from issues and events, current and historical. When people are racially blinded they become unable to process factual and well-documented truths and when anyone attempts to correct their bias they are called "haters" and
"racists". There are none so blind as those who will not see. I don't want my tax dollar spent glorifying a sad and unfortunate occurance in our history; these men do not deserve it.

[Shay58]

Wanglow wrote:

Funny how small minds throw around words like "hate" and "palpable anger" when they have no intelligent response when someone provides facts. Wanglow hates no one except those who aim to PROFIT from issues and events, current and historical. When people are racially blinded they become unable to process factual and well-documented truths and when anyone attempts to correct their bias they are called "haters" and
"racists". There are none so blind as those who will not see. I don't want my tax dollar spent glorifying a sad and unfortunate occurance in our history; these men do not deserve it.

Here's Wanglow talking about "small" minds." Thanks for the laugh Wangie.

[Shay58]

SayWhat wrote:

<quoted text>
"Stop Work" incident not "Mutiny"...So Shay58, I suppose that during the Rodney King riots in Atlanta, Chicago, Los Angeles and New York those folks were not "Looting" they were just "Redistributing Wealth"?.

What does Rodney King have to do with this thread?