Is perfect obedience essential to salvation

[Bobby]

heath wrote:

"faith alone" Bobby says.
The Holy Spirit says-
James 2:24
The Holy Spirit says- James 2:24
New International Version
You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.
New American Standard Bible
You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
International Standard Version
You observe that a person is justified through actions and not through faith alone.
GOD'S WORD® Translation
You see that a person receives God's approval because of what he does, not only because of what he believes.
King James Bible
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
American King James Version
You see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
American Standard Version
Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith.
Bible in Basic English
You see that a man's righteousness is judged by his works and not by his faith only.
Douay-Rheims Bible
Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?
Darby Bible Translation
Ye see that a man is justified on the principle of works, and not on the principle of faith only.
English Revised Version
Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith.
Webster's Bible Translation
Ye see then that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Weymouth New Testament
You all see that it is because of actions that a man is pronounced righteous, and not simply because of faith.
World English Bible
You see then that by works, a man is justified, and not only by faith.
Young's Literal Translation
Ye see, then, that out of works is man declared righteous, and not out of faith only;
www.roysecitycoc.org

James is dealing with people who profess to be Christians, and yet they don't evidence the reality of their faith by their works (deeds). Over, and over again... people will say they have faith and they don't have works, and James is saying that real faith always produces works as a result... The question is,'A man may say that he has faith, but will that faith justify him?' If it is just a 'said' faith”—no, it won't!

I have always said that a true Christian will produce works while at the same time works do not save. Works are what born-again are created for. Scripture bears this out.

[Bobby]

Paul clearly teaches that we are justified by faith and not by works (Rom. 1:17)....James declares, "Was not Abraham our father justified by works" (2:21)....James and Paul would be contradictory if there were speaking about the same thing, but there are many indications in the text that they are not. Paul is speaking about justification before God, while James is talking about justification before humans.

We know that the two writers are not disagreeing or the bible would contradict itself.

[Bobby]

This is indicated by the fact that James stressed that we should 'show' (2:18) our faith. It must be something that can be seen by others in 'works' (2:18-20). Further, James acknowledged that Abraham was justified before God by faith, not works, when he said, Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousnes (2:23). When he adds that Abraham was justified by works (verse 21), he is speaking of what Abraham did that could be seen by people, namely offer his son Isaac on the altar (2:21-22).

[Bobby]

Paul is stressing the root of justification which is (faith) James is stressing the fruit of justification (works) as the proof of faith. Pretty simple.

[Bobby]

“God, being a perfect God, had to give a perfect Law, and the Law was given not to save men, but to measure them. I want you to understand this clearly, because I believe hundreds and thousands stumble at this point. They try to save themselves by trying to keep the Law, but it was never meant for men to save themselves by.” D.L. Moody

[HEATH]

Romans 8:1-2

www.roysecitycoc.org

[HEATH]

"works do not save." Bobby

James 2:24

JUSTIFIED by works

www.roysecitycoc.org

[Bill]

We are jusified by works in the sense that those works flow from its sorce. If they be in the flesf, they profit nothing. Works are the byproduct of being saved, not the means thereof. We are saved UNTO good works, not on the basis of

[Bill]

BTW, you and Johnnie are on the same page again. You sure you are watching his preaching? He agrees with my statement and even went further with it...u must have missed that part

[Bill]

I meant 'arent' on the same page - hard to type from phone sometimes.

[Thankful for grace]

Bobby, I don't think he cares to even see or hear the Truth. He hears and sees what he wants, no matter how many times the clear, beautiful message of the Truth of God is placed in front of Him.

What I cannot understand is why anyone would continue to want to believe that we can save ourselves or somehow ever be good enough to deserve the forgiveness, justification, sanctification, grace, & love He freely gives us when we put our faith & trust in Him. It actually all harmonizes beautifully: belief, faith, baptism & fruitful works that flow out of the believer. It is foolish to leave any of it out, or try to make it about us, or separate them. Once we know the Truth, we are set free to LIVE in His name, LOVE in His name, spread the Good News & worship Him with all we have.

I am afraid the more I read the more I discover we are dealing with stubborn, unregenerate, & unwilling hearts that have traded the Good News of the Gospel into something awful...that gives no life, no hope...just a really bad portrayal of who God is, a condemning & hypocritical view of who/what the Church is, & one that keeps you running around in circles never quite sure of your salvation. There is no joy, no peace, no hope in that Message. It is devoid of Jesus & His amazing sacrifice!

It makes me both sad & angry to watch, especially after what I am experiencing here. Too many people are eager & searching for the real Good News for this false message to continue to be spread.

Anyway, it is past my bedtime over here-just had some things to say...

[Bill]

Amen.

It is imperatve that Nathan conatct me at [e-mail]

I hope your work in China is doing great. You are up very late. I have friends there too. It is after 1 there.

Please have Nathan email me.

[HEATH]

Bill wrote:

We are justified by works in the sense that those works flow from its source. If they be in the files, they profit nothing. Works are the byproduct of being saved, not the means thereof. We are saved UNTO good works, not on the basis of

James 2:24

JUSTIFIED by works

See, I don't have to try and explain the verse to get it to fit in with evangelical theology. We see clearly where your loylity is.

www.roysecitycoc.org

[HEATH]

Bill wrote:

Amen.
It is imperatve that Nathan conatct me at [e-mail]
I hope your work in China is doing great. You are up very late. I have friends there too. It is after 1 there.
Please have Nathan email me.

YES!

Progressive Bill needs all the help he can get from Nathan the Presbyterian.

lol

www.roysecitycoc.org

[Bill]

I am not wanting him for help, sir. I am inquiring about something else.

[Bill]

The “doctrine of Christ” in verse 9 is singular and specific, because in verse 10 he refers to it as “this” doctrine. What singular, specific doctrine was he referring to? He didn’t leave his readers guessing. See verse 7, where he introduces the urgent doctrinal matter that moved him to write the letter, even though he would defer many other topics until they could talk face to face. I’ve written more completely about that in my most recent blog article.

John didn’t write this brief letter to instruct the church to start withdrawing fellowship based on every doctrinal disagreement. That would have required a much more lengthy and detailed letter. They didn’t have everything figured out. There were many things he needed to teach them, but only one of them was urgent enough to make it into this letter. If he was sending them off to disfellowship every erroneous brother, he would have had to clarify all those other topics too — or else there would be a lot of erroneous disfellowshipping going on! But that’s not what happened.

[Bill]

Would it be a stretch to think that the apostle John meant by the “teaching of Christ” all the New Testament teachings that were not even canonized or agreed upon at this point? Would John have even been aware of the content of all the letters that now compose the New Testament? Would this statement be in effect for anything written after 2 John?

[HEATH]

Bill wrote:

Would it be a stretch to think that the apostle John meant by the “teaching of Christ” all the New Testament teachings that were not even canonized or agreed upon at this point? Would John have even been aware of the content of all the letters that now compose the New Testament? Would this statement be in effect for anything written after 2 John?

"agreed upon"??????

What are you a Catholic or something? That's what they teach.

Thou art the confused one.

www.roysecitycoc.org

[Beautiful Feet]

Bill wrote:

We are jusified by works in the sense that those works flow from its sorce. If they be in the flesf, they profit nothing. Works are the byproduct of being saved, not the means thereof. We are saved UNTO good works, not on the basis of

(Rom.6:16-18) & (Mark 16:16).

Care to explain these two verses?

[Beautiful Feet]

Can a man be saved in his sins?

(Rom.6:16-18)

16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

searchingfortruth.org