More on the Instruments in Worship Debate

[Bill]

This is a fascinating look at how this subject is NOT settled within the Churches of Christ:

http://www.abpnews.com/2503.article

I suppose to Johnny, Mark and James, the churches that have decided to experiment with musical instruments in worship are apostate.

But, what about the point made in the article with reference to Calvin? James, Norm and Johnny, where is your biblical authority for singing songs that aren’t scriptural songs, like the Psalms? And for singing non-unison songs?

PS – let me just say this – I am not arguing against churches being “acappella-only”. If your church worships this way, then I think it’s great! My point is that people shouldn’t be using money given for the spread of the Gospel to purchase airtime where they are going to spend a great deal of time and energy telling others in the Body of Christ that they are going to hell for using musical instruments in their worship of the Lord.

[heath]

Eph. 5:18-19

Col. 3:16-17

BENEDICT "In my earliest intercourse among this people, congregational singing generally prevailed among them.... The Introduction Of The Organ Among The Baptist. This instrument, which from time immemorial has been associated with cathedral pomp and prelatical power, and has always been the peculiar favorite of great national churches, at length found its way into Baptist sanctuaries, and the first one ever employed by the denomination in this country, and probably in any other, might have been standing in the singing gallery of the Old Baptist meeting house in Pawtucket, about forty years ago, where I then officiated as pastor (1840)... Staunch old Baptists in former times would as soon tolerated the Pope of Rome in their pulpits as an organ in their galleries, and yet the instrument has gradually found its way among them.... How far this modern organ fever will extend among our people, and whether it will on the whole work a RE- formation or DE- formation in their singing service, time will more fully develop." (Benedict, Baptist historian, Fifty Years Among Baptist, page 204-207)

BINGHAM "Music in churches is as ancient as the apostles, but instrumental music not so ... The use of the instrumental, indeed, is much ancienter, but not in church service... In the Western parts, the instrument, as not so much as known till the eighth century; for the first organ that was ever seen in France was one sent as a present to King Pepin by Constantinus Copronymus, the Greek emperor.... But, now, it was only, used in princes courts, and not yet brought into churches; nor was it ever received into the Greek churches, there being no mention of an organ in all their liturgies ancient or modern." (Joseph Bingham, Works, London Edition. Vol. 11, p. 482-484)

CALVIN "Musical instruments in celebrating the praises of God would be no more suitable than the burning of incense, the lighting of lamps, and the restoration of the other shadows of the law. The Papists therefore, have foolishly borrowed, this, as well as many other things, from the Jews. Men who are fond of outward pomp may delight in that noise; but the simplicity which God recommends to us by the apostles is far more pleasing to him. Paul allows us to bless God in the public assembly of the saints, only in a known tongue (I Cor. 14:16) What shall we then say of chanting, which fills the ears with nothing but an empty sound?" (John Calvin, Commentary on Psalms 33)

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[heath]

CATHOLIC "Although Josephus tells of the wonderful effects produced in the Temple by the use of instruments, the first Christians were of too spiritual a fibre to substitute lifeless instruments for or to use them to accompany the human voice. Clement of Alexandria severely condemns the use of instruments even at Christian banquets. St. Chrysostum sharply contrasts the customs of the Christians when they had full freedom with those of the Jews of the Old Testament." (Catholic Encyclopedia, Vol. 10, pg. 648-652.)

COLEMAN "The tendency of this (instrumental music) was to secularize the music of the church, and to encourage singing by a choir. Such musical accompaniments were gradually introduced; but they can hardly be assigned to a period earlier than the fifth and sixth centuries. Organs were unknown in church until the eighth or ninth centuries. Previous to this, they had their place in the theater, rather than in the church. they were never regarded with favor in the Eastern church, and were vehemently opposed in many places in the West." (Lyman Coleman, a Presbyterian, Primitive Church, p. 376-377)

FINNEY "The early Christians refused to have anything to do with the instrumental music which they might have inherited from the ancient world." (Theodore Finney, A History of Music, 1947, p. 43)

GARRISON "There is no command in the New Testament, Greek or English, commanding the use of the instrument. Such a command would be entirely out of harmony with the New Testament." (J.H. Garrison, Christian Church)

MCCLINTOCK "The general introduction of instrumental music can certainly not be assigned to a date earlier than the 5th and 6th centuries; yea, even Gregory the Great, who towards the end of the 6th century added greatly to the existing church music, absolutely prohibited the use of instruments. Several centuries later the introduction of the organ in sacred service gave the place to instruments as accompaniments for Christian song, and from that time to this they have been freely used with few exceptions. The first organ is believed to have been used in the Church service in the 13th century. Organs were however, in use before this in the theater. They were never regarded with favor in the Eastern Church, and were vehemently opposed in some of the Western churches." (McClintock and Strong, Cyclopaedia of Biblical Literature, Vol 6, p. 759)

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[heath]

MCCLINTOCK "The Greek word 'psallo' is applied among the Greeks of modern times exclusively to sacred music, which in the Eastern Church has never been any other than vocal, instrumental music being unknown in that church, as it was in the primitive church." (McClintock & Strong, Vol. 8, p. 739).

NAUMAN "There can be no doubt that originally the music of the divine service was every where entirely of a vocal nature." (Emil Nauman, The History of Music. Vol. I, p. 177)

NEWMAN "In 1699 the Baptists received an invitation from Thomas Clayton, rector of Christ Church, to unite with the Church of England. They replied in a dignified manner, declining to do so unless he could prove, "that the Church of Christ under the New Testament may consist or ... a mixed multitude and their seed, even all the members of a nation,... whether they are godly or ungodly," that "lords, archbishops, etc.,... are of divine institution and appointment," and that their vestments, liturgical services, use of mechanical instruments, infant baptism, sprinkling, "signing with the cross in baptism," etc., are warranted by Scripture." … "It may be interesting to note that this church (First Baptist Church of Newport, organized in 1644 cf. p. 88) was one of the first to introduce instrumental music. The instrument was a bass viol and caused considerable commotion. This occurred early in the nineteenth century.(Albert Henry Newman, A History of the Baptist Churches in the United States, American Baptist Publication Society 1915, p. 207, 255)

ROBERTSON "The word (psalleto) originally meant to play on a stringed instrument (Sir. 9:4), but it comes to be used also for singing with the voice and heart (Eph. 5:19; 1 Cor. 14:15), making melody with the heart also to the Lord" (A. T. Robertson, Baptist Greek scholar, Baptist Studies in the Nestle James, comment on James 5:13)

SCHAFF "It is questionable whether, as used in the New Testament,'psallo' means more than to sing ... The absence of instrumental music from the church for some centuries after the apostles and the sentiment regarding it which pervades the writing, the fathers are unaccountable, if in the apostolic church such music was used" (Schaff-Herzog, Vol. 3, p. 961).

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[heath]

SPURGEON "Praise the Lord with the harp. Israel was at school, and used childish things to help her to learn; but in these days when Jesus gives us spiritual food, one can make melody without strings and pipes. We do not need them. They would hinder rather than help our praise. Sing unto him. This is the sweetest and best music. No instrument like the human voice." (Commentary on Psalms 42:4) "David appears to have had a peculiarly tender remembrance of the singing of the pilgrims, and assuredly it is the most delightful part of worship and that which comes nearest to the adoration of heaven. What a degradation to supplant the intelligent song of the whole congregation by the theatrical prettiness of a quartet, bellows, and pipes! We might as well pray by machinery as praise by it." (Spurgeon preached to 20,000 people every Sunday for 20 years in the Metropolitan Baptist Tabernacle and never were mechanical instruments of music used in his services. When asked why, he quoted 1st Corinthians 14:15. "I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the understanding also; I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also." He then declared: "I would as soon pray to God with machinery as to sing to God with machinery." (Charles H. Spurgeon, Baptist)

EUSEBIUS "Of old at the time those of the circumcision were worshipping with symbols and types it was not inappropriate to send up hymns to God with the psalterion and cithara and to do this on Sabbath days... We render our hymn with a living psalterion and a living cithara with spiritual songs. The unison voices of Christians would be more acceptable to God than any musical instrument. Accordingly in all the churches of God, united in soul and attitude, with one mind and in agreement of faith and piety we send up a unison melody in the words of the Psalms." (commentary on Psalms 91:2-3)

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[heath]

Why did progressive Bill abandon this thread?

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[walkinginlove]

What I want to know is why do you quote people who all went to hell per your own beliefs?

[heath]

walkinginlove wrote:

What I want to know is why do you quote people who all went to hell per your own beliefs?

The same reason I would quote an atheist when he speaks of DESIGN in nature.

Facts are facts.

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[Bill]

No, the truth is Shawn is picking from these men what he "thinks" to be facts. Citing what these men taught on any given subject does not make something FACT.

[Bill]

Shawn, when you ride in your car, is it sin to listen to rock songs? It is a sin to turn the radio on in the house and listen to rock songs? Can a Christian listen to Christian rock on his radio? Just curious if you guys consider this sinful. I know Johnny said on his show once that it depends on the lyrics of the song. Do you agree? Please tell me if it is sinful to listen to Country and Rock songs?

[HEATH]

Bill wrote:

No, the truth is Shawn is picking from these men what he "thinks" to be facts. Citing what these men taught on any given subject does not make something FACT.

Progressive Bill, are you denying the historical FACT that the early church did not worship with instrumental music?

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[Bill]

No. I am not denying that.

Now that I answered you, please answer:

a)When you ride in your car, is it sin to listen to rock songs?

b)It is a sin to turn the radio on in the house and listen to rock songs?

c)Can a Christian listen to Christian rock songs on his radio?

Just curious if you guys consider this sinful. I know Johnny said on his show once that it depends on the lyrics of the song. Do you agree? Please tell me if it is sinful to listen to Country and Rock songs?

[walkinginlove]

Heath did you ever consider that when you are a hunted man generally you don't blow a trumpet to give away your position!

[johnny]

bill you didnt answer anything

shawn proved that mechanical music is a recent invention into worship and that ALL agreed with us until the PEOPLE like in days of Samuel clamored for a king, clamor for mechanical music.
We all know it is an invention from the mind of men, thinking it will please God in church worship.
It is like women preachers, sprinkling of babies, and on and on.
You all cant say no to anything. You have women up dancing in front of you and call it praise dance when it is no more than women swaying to music, in front of men who love to watch it.

Why do you not have men praise dancing?

It is always "DAVID" danced when they try and answer us, but they never have men dancing it is always women, not older women like Moses sister Miriam, it is the young and lots of time under dressed.

And will anyone denounce anything on here. No! Lee has told us that this is not the denouce error site... this is try to answer the church of Christ. Well that site went out of business in June!

Can't be done boys.

[johnny]

especially by folk who are so ashamed of the religions they will not even own up to what they are so everyone can see they all disbelieve each other.
Jesus already announced the outcome of this battle fellows.
Mt 12:25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:

you all cant win in your divided state! are you smarter than Jesus?

We actually rejoice that you are ashamed to let your identies and affiliation out. We rejoice that the devils churches are scared to come out to the light. It makes us that much more bold as we see you hide yourselves. it proves the power of the doctrine we promote. POWERFUL GLORIOUS BOLD & UNAFRAID!
You all weak, secretive, annomomous, dark, cultish... we recognize the devil's brood when we see it

PROUD... you can come over with a camera any time
Rape? so all the news media are rapist
you are as dumb as anyone we have heard from so far. I think likely you were withdrawn from and you are lady... hell has no fury like a woman's scorn.

[walkinginlove]

Considering James told a pastor he would not tape him and claimed to have a tape, what do you call that, I call it being a liar.

So how did he phrase it did he tell him he would not tape him for TV? So you use deceit to spread dissension among others.

Since you are into this why have you not visited a Jewish house of worship, I see a pattern of the original church doing that but I do not see you doing that!

As for pride, that comes before the fall John!

How is your father?

[HEATH]

a)When you ride in your car, is it sin to listen to rock songs? YES, IF THE ROCK SONG HAS A MESSAGE THAT'S CONTRARY TO HOLINESS.

b)It is a sin to turn the radio on in the house and listen to rock songs? YES, IF THE ROCK SONG HAS A MESSAGE THAT'S CONTRARY TO HOLINESS.

c)Can a Christian listen to Christian rock songs on his radio? YES, IF THE CHRISTIAN LIKES LISTENING TO PEOPLE WORSHIPING IN VAIN.

Progressive Bill, why do you not have men praise dancing? That's in the Psalms.

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[Bill]

Something Shawn overlooks here folks is that the rock songs, Christian rock songs and country songs on the radio have MUSIC accompanied with them. He knows this and so does anyone reading this, but notice me and Shawn both used only the words SONGS. So much for silence meaning there isnt MUSIC with the songs. Thanks again Shawn.

Johnny, you missed this too. I did answer Shawn and Shawn just made the point very clear. We all know each song group named has music with them on the radio but yet Shawn and I just used the word SONG. So much for your argument, Shawn made it loud and clear! Just because we use the word song doesn't exclude music from the rock songs,Country songs and Christian rock songs. If fact, Shawn knows that each has music with them on the radio....

[Heath]

"Progressive Bill, are you denying the historical FACT that the early church did not worship with instrumental music?" heath

"No. I am not denying that." Bill

So the early church understood sing to mean SING.

They understood song to mean SONG.

It did not mean to them sing and play instruments.

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[Heath]

Bill wrote:

Something Shawn overlooks here folks is that the rock songs, Christian rock songs and country songs on the radio have MUSIC accompanied with them. He knows this and so does anyone reading this, but notice me and Shawn both used only the words SONGS. So much for silence meaning there isnt MUSIC with the songs. Thanks again Shawn.
Johnny, you missed this too. I did answer Shawn and Shawn just made the point very clear. We all know each song group named has music with them on the radio but yet Shawn and I just used the word SONG. So much for your argument, Shawn made it loud and clear! Just because we use the word song doesn't exclude music from the rock songs,Country songs and Christian rock songs. If fact, Shawn knows that each has music with them on the radio....

And????

We KNOW for a FACT that ROCK SONGS have instrumental music.

We KNOW for a FACT (that you agree with) that the early church did not use instrumental music in worship.

Your *gotcha* did not work. ;)

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