Our recommendation: Springboro voters...

Our recommendation: Springboro voters should say 'yes' the first time to school levies

There are 31925 comments on the Dayton Daily News story from Feb 5, 2008, titled Our recommendation: Springboro voters should say 'yes' the first time to school levies. In it, Dayton Daily News reports that:

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Just Watching

Cleveland, OH

#24467 Apr 28, 2013
Once again how about some of the 2000 plus kids who are not getting the education the taxpayers have been funding?

The old efforts to ignore the data, the questions, and the issues in an effort to turn attention away from the problems you wish to run from won't be happening any time soon.

When 80% of our children in the 8th grade cannot pass a basic math test in this community filled with an overwhelming amount of resources, parents who value education, parents with advanced degrees, the absolute best teachers in the whole wide world, then something is amiss.

And if the answer was more money, the kids in Dayton would be sterling as well as we consider ourselves to be.
borobeef

Cleveland, OH

#24468 Apr 28, 2013
Just Watching wrote:
Try showing as much passion about the 2000 plus kids in our school district that are not getting the education the taxpayers are funding.
Those who would hide behind the low bar set by the state know full well that PROFICIENT is a nice sounding euphemism for FAILURE,
PROFICIENT = FAILURE
Please define "the education the taxpayers are funding". What is that? A certain number of children per classroom? A certain amount of tutors and aides per number of children? What level of service are you paying for? Specifics please. Doug you can keep posting the same state numbers regarding g proficiency. Can you put some numbers down to define the level of service the taxpayers are paying for-how that is apparently inadequate for the 2000 you keep saying are underserved -and how that gap can be closed? Thanks.
Just Watching

Cleveland, OH

#24469 Apr 28, 2013
Observer wrote:
After church we had lunch with my wife's sister who is a special ed teacher in Loveland. She told us that she and her friends were talking about how they couldn't afford to be on strike for two months like the teachers in Strongsville.
She said they were worried after watching what the OEA did up north and they didn't want to do what those teacher had to do to get the same contract they were offered two months ago. She got kind of teary eyed at the thought of going a couple months without pay and I know she isn't one sitting around with two months worth of living expenses she can live off of in an emergency. She got more worried when we told her about the opening bid by the OEA in Springboro.
If you really want to worry your sister-in-law, send her this link and ask her if any of this is beginning to sound or look familiar to her.

http://www.mikemcmahon.info/unionnegotiations...

This is the NEA Strategy Directives to Field Representatives for Difficult Negotiations.

It provides a sneak peak at what is about to transpire, tell her to read it and see if she is getting a glimpse of the future. Look for the various steps at a strike rally near her.

Tell her to run away as fast as possible or she may wish she had those savings.

Priceless
Just Watching

Cleveland, OH

#24470 Apr 29, 2013
borobeef wrote:
<quoted text>
Please define "the education the taxpayers are funding". What is that? A certain number of children per classroom? A certain amount of tutors and aides per number of children? What level of service are you paying for? Specifics please. Doug you can keep posting the same state numbers regarding g proficiency. Can you put some numbers down to define the level of service the taxpayers are paying for-how that is apparently inadequate for the 2000 you keep saying are underserved -and how that gap can be closed? Thanks.
The taxpayers provide $43,000,000 dollars to our school district to educate children, how the administration and the school district wish to spend that money is at their discretion. As Mr. Petrey explained at the last board meeting, this district chose to employ a vast array of IEP specialist rather than more teachers.

I am certainly glad you are finally beginning to see the light and recognize that we have had over 2000 plus kids in our system who are not getting the education we are funding as taxpayers.
If you ask me to believe we have that many incompetent teachers in our buildings I would be inclined to scoff at you.

If you tell me that we enjoy that many kids with special needs or are just incapable of of learning I would just shake my head in disbelief once more.

What you have in place is a system designed by the union to ensure cash flow over education.
That lady in Loveland who is worried about her immediate future and having to go on strike rather than teach children. If they are paid like our special ed teachers she is making $78-$79,000 per year. A couple months without pay is $13,000, how is she going to make that money up?

She had better be getting an 8.2% raise on a two year contract if she is going to make up that money before the contract ends.

Anybody see that happening? And that will make her even with where she is today.

Fast forward two years and repeat.

Lot of work to go nowhere.

http://www.mikemcmahon.info/unionnegotiations...

And what happens to the children everyone claims to have so much concern for in this day and age?
They become the symbolic pawns paraded in front of a video hungry media, they make good photo ops.

Such concern is heartwarming.
Convert

Lebanon, OH

#24471 Apr 29, 2013
I never used to believe that 2000 plus kid stuff until I noticed nobody ever does say the data Wiedeman posts is wrong. Everybody just attacks the messenger.
I looked at that union strategy book and will see how many things we see they show up with in the next few weeks.
HeyConvert

Brook Park, OH

#24472 Apr 29, 2013
Nobody disputes it because he is using a grading scale for something totally different. He is using a scale that makes his argument. The tests he is referring to are graded on a scaled throughout the state of Ohio, he is using a percentage scale. He refuses to admit to that, he just likes to copy and paste those numbers up there. Nobody really argues it because he doesn't matter. He says he does but he really doesn't.
Just Watching

Cleveland, OH

#24473 Apr 29, 2013
HeyConvert wrote:
Nobody disputes it because he is using a grading scale for something totally different. He is using a scale that makes his argument. The tests he is referring to are graded on a scaled throughout the state of Ohio, he is using a percentage scale. He refuses to admit to that, he just likes to copy and paste those numbers up there. Nobody really argues it because he doesn't matter. He says he does but he really doesn't.
I would say to refute your rather specious point is that I am employing the same grading scale Mr. Malone employed on those children who dared pursue PSEO classes out of his high school.
If the grading scale is good enough for our top students, then it should be good enough for all the children in the district. Particularly when they are taking basic assessment tests.
Even Mr. Petrey admitted in last week's board meeting that the standards set by the state of Ohio are a rather "low bar".
That was an understatement, getting 32% on a standardized basic Ohio Assessment Math Test can hardly be considered PROFICIENT by anyone with a degree of intellectual honesty.
How can you look a child in the face and tell him 32% correct on a basic test makes him or her good enough?
If you wish to debate the points, debate the points.
Explain why I am wrong when I say 80% of the kids scoring less than 74% on a standardized basic math test is not good.
Go on, defend why 54% of the kids scoring 63% and below is really a good thing for those children.
Tell everyone how this okay and won't harm the children's prospects in the future.
Ask the union to address this issue during negotiation and then see how their pay looks.
8th Grade 2011-2012 Ohio Achievement Assessment Tests Results.
.
Math .......50 possible points on the test
.
.
State Rating System and distribution of students for the 8th grade
.
Limited.......... 3 Students
Limited.......... 20% was the Average score for this group
Limited..........definition--0 -10 correct answers =(0-20% correct)
.
Basic..........25 Students
Basic ..........27% was the Average score for this group
Basic..........definition--11- 15 correct answers =(22-30% correct)
.
Proficient........174 Students
Proficient........47% was the Average score for this group
Proficient.........definition- -16-29 correct answers =(32-58% correct)
.
Accelerated.....159 Students
Accelerated.....67% was the Average score for this group
Accelerated.....definition--30 -36 correct answers =(60-72% correct)
.
Advanced........77 Students
Advanced........85% was the Average score for this group
Advanced........definition--37 -50 correct answers =(74-100% correct)
.
Applying Mr. Malone's same grading system used for assigning percentages to grades earned in the college credit program (PSEO)
.
F.....Below 62.99% correct answers.......239 Students
Percentage of Students.....55% receiving F
D..... 63%- 74.99% correct answers......108 Students
Percentage of Students.....25% receiving D
C......75%- 84.99% correct answers........49 Students
Percentage of Students.....11% receiving C
B..... 85%- 92.99% correct answers........36 Students
Percentage of Students.....8% receiving B
A..... 93% correct answers and above.....6 Students
Percentage of Students.....1% receiving A
.
.
.
Is this the level of achievement to which we wish to aspire in Springboro?
.
Is this the best we are capable of given our resources?
.
Should we continue to allow the schools and the state to hide behind euphemisms rather than actual achievement?
.
Demand better, our children and taxpayers deserve a real return on our investment in our schools.
poundsand

Miamisburg, OH

#24474 Apr 29, 2013
HeyConvert wrote:
Nobody disputes it because he is using a grading scale for something totally different. He is using a scale that makes his argument. The tests he is referring to are graded on a scaled throughout the state of Ohio, he is using a percentage scale. He refuses to admit to that, he just likes to copy and paste those numbers up there. Nobody really argues it because he doesn't matter. He says he does but he really doesn't.
Get out of our forum you union hack. Don't you liberal shills have enough to do bankrupting California?
HeyConvert

Maineville, OH

#24475 Apr 29, 2013
Just watching, for homework tonight please look up what a bell curve is. That's how the state compares the schools in Ohio, Mr. Malone's grading scale is just fine and if you want to use it then you need to regrade all of the tests you keep posting then tell us how each kid did.
Just Racist

Yellow Springs, OH

#24476 Apr 29, 2013
Just Racist wrote:
<quoted text>
Your words "sterling" for Dayton, not for Springboro. Now it's the union. "Sterling" is your words don't recall union making these statements. Just more misinformation by you. Please answer the question why is it "sterling" for Dayton, and not for Springboro?
Just Watching still waiting for you answer.
Genius

Yellow Springs, OH

#24477 Apr 29, 2013
How about those teachers in Strongsville! Hope Springboro teachers will stand up and do the same thing. Maybe Springboro teachers can get a 10% raise and steps returned like they did in Strongsville.
Just Watching

Cleveland, OH

#24478 Apr 29, 2013
Genius wrote:
How about those teachers in Strongsville! Hope Springboro teachers will stand up and do the same thing. Maybe Springboro teachers can get a 10% raise and steps returned like they did in Strongsville.
Now that we know that our teachers who earn from $30-$70 per hour need a 20% raise because they haven't had one in a year.

What has been the average raise provided by your employer in the past year or so?

How many of our readers have been given raises to the tune of 20-30% in the past year or so?

So a beginning teacher will now make between $37.50 -$42/hour?

Extrapolate that out to a full time job and that would mean $78,000 -$87,370 per year for a starting teacher.

For a top of the scale teacher they would make $87.50 -$100/hour.

Extrapolote that out to a full time job in the private sector and that would mean $182,000 -$208,000 per year.
Just Watching

Cleveland, OH

#24479 Apr 29, 2013
HeyConvert wrote:
Just watching, for homework tonight please look up what a bell curve is. That's how the state compares the schools in Ohio, Mr. Malone's grading scale is just fine and if you want to use it then you need to regrade all of the tests you keep posting then tell us how each kid did.
Bell curve is for those who don't do their job and want to make it look like they did by lowering the bar for everyone rather than teaching their students what they are paid to teach.

I already regraded each one of those test my friend, and those are the results. Go back and review them to note that we have a gradual regression of learning with each subsequent year. More kids move from the top down the scale of understanding.

All of the teachers are aware by now what each of those state euphemisms actually represent in regards to actual learning and achievement.

PROFICIENT = FAILURE

You are not in a George Orwell novel, these are real children's lives you are playing with today.

Since: Jul 12

Cleveland, OH

#24480 Apr 29, 2013
The school boards will have to get rid of all the union garbage first then I'll consider voting for any school Levi..no more votes to up any money till the teachers get rid of their union..they haven't earned what they get now with their lame passive ways in indoctrinating our kids..
GetRidOfTests

Brecksville, OH

#24481 Apr 29, 2013
The students are not accountable for these tests and they know it. The kids know that nothing comes of them doing poorly on this test and they don't put much effort into them. I wish they would just get rid of them. Clearly the tests have divided the city of Springboro. What do Springboro students average on the ACT? There's a test the students are accountable and give their best on.
Just Watching

Cleveland, OH

#24482 Apr 29, 2013
GetRidOfTests wrote:
The students are not accountable for these tests and they know it. The kids know that nothing comes of them doing poorly on this test and they don't put much effort into them. I wish they would just get rid of them. Clearly the tests have divided the city of Springboro. What do Springboro students average on the ACT? There's a test the students are accountable and give their best on.
That is right, its the kids fault, how could I have missed that one?

Show me the frequency scoring on the ACT and we will talk.

Our average, even with all the smart kids pulling it up, isn't that great.

It will get you admitted to many lower tiered schools, but top notch programs are not that impressed.
Not out of 100

Centerburg, OH

#24483 Apr 29, 2013
You have completely screwed up interpreting the OAT grading scale as used in your example here! The OAT is not "out of 100", it is based on their ability to answer a range of questions correctly based on their current learned skills and abilities in that grade. It is NOT an x/100 grading scale that you are apparently using. There are questions on the test for that grade which are way BELOW where a student is able to answer, and then questions way ABOVE where a student is able to answer. The net is where they place in that spectrum, and not "out of 100". Some questions are "gimme's" and some are on material they have not learned or will not learn for a year or two. How else would you gauge where a student is in thier progress overall? I would certainly like to see every student in Springboro score at the 50-70%+ level, meaning they are ahead of their poor performing(50%)counterparts, but wait, using your own numbers below, they ARE scoring at 50-70%+ rating when 50% is used as the correct baseline.
Just Watching wrote:
<quoted text>
... How can you look a child in the face and tell him 32% correct on a basic test makes him or her good enough?
If you wish to debate the points, debate the points.
Explain why I am wrong when I say 80% of the kids scoring less than 74% on a standardized basic math test is not good.
Go on, defend why 54% of the kids scoring 63% and below is really a good thing for those children.
Tell everyone how this okay and won't harm the children's prospects in the future.
Ask the union to address this issue during negotiation and then see how their pay looks.
8th Grade 2011-2012 Ohio Achievement Assessment Tests Results.
.
Math .......50 possible points on the test
.
.
State Rating System and distribution of students for the 8th grade
.
Limited.......... 3 Students
Limited.......... 20% was the Average score for this group
Limited..........definition--0 -10 correct answers =(0-20% correct)
.
Basic..........25 Students
Basic ..........27% was the Average score for this group
Basic..........definition--11- 15 correct answers =(22-30% correct)
.
Proficient........174 Students
Proficient........47% was the Average score for this group
Proficient.........definition- -16-29 correct answers =(32-58% correct)
.
Accelerated.....159 Students
Accelerated.....67% was the Average score for this group
Accelerated.....definition--30 -36 correct answers =(60-72% correct)
.
Advanced........77 Students
Advanced........85% was the Average score for this group
Advanced........definition--37 -50 correct answers =(74-100% correct)
.
Applying Mr. Malone's same grading system used for assigning percentages to grades earned in the college credit program (PSEO)
.
F.....Below 62.99% correct answers.......239 Students
Percentage of Students.....55% receiving F
D..... 63%- 74.99% correct answers......108 Students
Percentage of Students.....25% receiving D
C......75%- 84.99% correct answers........49 Students
Percentage of Students.....11% receiving C
B..... 85%- 92.99% correct answers........36 Students
Percentage of Students.....8% receiving B
A..... 93% correct answers and above.....6 Students
Percentage of Students.....1% receiving A
.
.
.
Is this the level of achievement to which we wish to aspire in Springboro?
.
Is this the best we are capable of given our resources?
.
Should we continue to allow the schools and the state to hide behind euphemisms rather than actual achievement?
.
Demand better, our children and taxpayers deserve a real return on our investment in our schools.
GetRidOfTests

Mason, OH

#24484 Apr 29, 2013
Just Watching wrote:
<quoted text>
That is right, its the kids fault, how could I have missed that one?
Show me the frequency scoring on the ACT and we will talk.
Our average, even with all the smart kids pulling it up, isn't that great.
It will get you admitted to many lower tiered schools, but top notch programs are not that impressed.
Ask your three kids if the kids take these tests seriously. Do it, please. I guarantee you they will say they don't. Springboro's average ACT score is 24. That will get kids into colleges and university's.
Numbers

Mason, OH

#24485 Apr 29, 2013
Just Watching wrote:
<quoted text>
Now that we know that our teachers who earn from $30-$70 per hour need a 20% raise because they haven't had one in a year.
What has been the average raise provided by your employer in the past year or so?
How many of our readers have been given raises to the tune of 20-30% in the past year or so?
So a beginning teacher will now make between $37.50 -$42/hour?
Extrapolate that out to a full time job and that would mean $78,000 -$87,370 per year for a starting teacher.
For a top of the scale teacher they would make $87.50 -$100/hour.
Extrapolote that out to a full time job in the private sector and that would mean $182,000 -$208,000 per year.
I love the way you manipulate numbers, I bet your printing business is the best in the state!
Just Watching

Cleveland, OH

#24486 Apr 29, 2013
GetRidOfTests wrote:
<quoted text>
Ask your three kids if the kids take these tests seriously. Do it, please. I guarantee you they will say they don't. Springboro's average ACT score is 24. That will get kids into colleges and university's.
You do know that average means all the scores added up then divided by the number of participants.

An average does not tell you the frequency distribution of the scores.

Example: 20 people scoring 18 on their ACT and 20 people scoring 30 on their ACT will give you an average of 24 the ACT.

While those scoring 30 will probably do well, those on the bottom end of the scale will not.
But the average is still 24.

You do not have enough information with just an average to make any assertions that contain any validity past the fact that the average is this much.

Let's examine the complete results and see where our program needs tweaking

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