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HughBe

Kingston, Jamaica

#43858 Nov 21, 2012
Eric, I suppose that you did not see the information below and hence the words you used to illustrate your point were from my earlier post.Recall your words,"A lot of what you list is supposition on your part"

In addition, have you considered that not everything was RECORDED but this does not mean that they were NOT KNOWN?

Cite the text where God told Cain or Adam that it was a sin or wrong to MURDER. The fact is they were TOLD otherwise it would NOT have been a SIN.

Lot called the desires of the men of Sodom WICKEDNESS and he offered his two VIRGIN daughters but their CORRUPT desires wanted the men. How did Lot know that it was wickedness, if not by the law of God?

List the sexual acts that are contemplated and prohibited in your Noahide laws and cite the passages of scripture that support them. Cite passages before the WRITTEN law.

Cite the scripture where God told Abel the types of animals that he should offer as a sacrifice.

Did Abel sacrifice the right KIND of animal and in the right CONDITION? How did he know? Cite scripture to support how he knew.

"And Israel took his journey with all that he had, and came to Beersheba, and offered sacrifices unto the God of his father Isaac"
How did Israel know what is an ACCEPTABLE sacrfice.

My point they KNEW what was holy and what was not. Their actions and CONNECTION to God testify of these things.

---------

Now to the information that you did not see.

Eric---btw the clean/unclean animals are part of the Noahide principles.

HughBe--- Incorrect based on this quote from MY Jewish Learning. ""The children of Noah were commanded with seven commandments:[to establish] laws, and [to prohibit] cursing God, idolatry, illicit sexuality, bloodshed, robbery, and eating flesh from a living animal (Sanhedrin 56a; cf. Tosefta Avodah Zarah 8:4 and Genesis Rabbah 34:8)."

Let me outline my proof that Noah, Abraham etc. kept more than Noahide 7 rules. The approach is simple I shall list things that are not in the rules.

1. Abraham paid tithes. "And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him TITHES of all"

2. They knew the LAWS about clean and unclean animals.

3. They sacrificed CLEAN animals thus demonstrating KNOWLEDGE of the laws.

"And Noah builded an altar unto the LORD; and took of every CLEAN beast, and of every CLEAN fowl, and offered burnt OFFERINGS on the altar"

"Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a LAMB for a burnt offering" "Abraham went and took the RAM, and offered him up for a burnt offering "

4. I am saying that they knew how to put a "difference between holy and unholy, and between unclean and clean;" and as such they would NOT have eaten unclean meats.

5. Diet of Abraham "he took butter, and milk, and the calf which he had dressed, and set it before them; and he stood by them under the tree, and they did eat. "
Note clean meat eaten and NOT PORK.

6. They KNEW the WAY of the Lord, God said so. "For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the WAY of the LORD, to do JUSTICE and JUDGMENT" The way of the Lord are His commandments.
e.g."a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the LORD your God, but turn aside out of the WAY" In other words not obeying His commandments is turning from His WAY. Clear.

7. The patriarchs knew that they should honour their parents as this is a part of the way of the Lord.

Example of Abraham honouring his father.

"Terah TOOK Abram his son, and Lot the son of Haran his son's son, and Sarai his daughter in law, his son Abram's wife; and they went forth with them from Ur of the Chaldees, to go into the land of Canaan; and they came unto Haran, and dwelt there"

Note the language used i.e. Terah TOOK. Note Abram was MARRIED and as such an adult and yet the respect and obedience to his father

Now Eric, you prove your noahide laws.
HughBe

Kingston, Jamaica

#43859 Nov 21, 2012
Eric wrote:
<quoted text>
This is exactly my point. For some you have listed mere explanations from the 7. For example, one principle is to worship only HaShem and not the pagan idols. From that one principle you get tithing to priests of HaShem (not the priests of the pagan religions), altars, sacrifices.
A lot of what you list is supposition on your part:
"4. Do you suppose that Abraham et. al. knew that it was wrong to covet? This is NOT a part of the Noahide laws as far as I remember." You offer no passage in support that this was a commandment from HaShem nor do you offer a passage even in support of the idea that the Patriarchs had a position on coveting. HOWEVER PLEASE NOTE: not coveting in a direct outgrowth of not committing adultery.
"3. Do you suppose that Abraham a PROPHET of God knew not about the SABBATH given that God made it from CREATION? " another supposition on your part as to what Abraham knew or more importantly what he did or what HaShem told him to do. Again you offer no support for your position.
Now let's look at clean and unclean animals. All of the passages that you cite that actually talk of clean and unclean animals related to worship which flows from the command to only worship HaShem.
Your SUPPOSITION about diet are just that. All meals that Abraham ate are not recorded. You have cited but 2.
You still have offered no citation commanding the growing of beards. You have but offered a citation that Joseph had his beard shaved after a long prision stay where he could not have shaved. Nor have you shown that the growing of beards was but more of a custom rather than a commandment.
Your division of the discussion between commandments to the people of the covenant and commandments to all is taken. My wording was sloppy. But, we are talking about what HaShem would require of mankind as a whole when we speak of the Noahide Laws. And, HaShem did not require of mankind as a whole circumcision. If HaShem did, there are a lot of Christians who have a problem.
Eric---Your SUPPOSITION about diet are just that. All meals that Abraham ate are not recorded

HughBe--- So, are you really saying that the friend of God ate unclean meat?

Are you a friend of God?

Learn this, FRIENDS know about each other and this means that they know what pleases and what does not. Abraham knew God and His WAY. God said so and my question to you is, was God LYING that Abraham knew His WAY and that he kept His laws, commandments etc?

Also, I can unconditionally guarantee you that not one man living today is as close to God as was Abraham.

Finally, there is no SUPPOSOTION about what Abraham offered the strangers to eat and as difficult as it seems the meal offered was a reflection of his diet.

Note, he did not ask the men what they wanted to eat. Did you notice that?

Diet of Abraham."And he took BUTTER, and MILK, and the CALF which he had dressed, and set it before them; and he stood by them under the tree, and they did eat. "

Please dispel any FOOLISH notion that you may have that Abraham, the PROPHET of God and FRIEND of God ate PIG or DOGS.
HughBe

Kingston, Jamaica

#43860 Nov 21, 2012
Eric, please take your time to digest the material.

I shall give you time so do not rush please, for your sake.
Eric

Lombard, IL

#43861 Nov 21, 2012
HughBe wrote:
Cite the text where God told Cain or Adam that it was a sin or wrong to MURDER. The fact is they were TOLD otherwise it would NOT have been a SIN.
(Gen. 9:6), "If one sheds the blood of THE MAN (Ha Adam), by man shall his own blood be shed."
HughBe

Kingston, Jamaica

#43862 Nov 21, 2012
Eric wrote:
<quoted text>
(Gen. 9:6), "If one sheds the blood of THE MAN (Ha Adam), by man shall his own blood be shed."
HughBe --Cite the text where God told Cain or Adam that it was a sin or wrong to MURDER. The fact is they were TOLD otherwise it would NOT have been a SIN.

Eric---(Gen. 9:6), "If one sheds the blood of THE MAN (Ha Adam), by man shall his own blood be shed."

HughBe--- Please read my comment again. Your words are a JOKE. Genesis 9? when was Abel killed? Try Genesis 4
HughBe

Kingston, Jamaica

#43863 Nov 21, 2012
Eric wrote:
<quoted text>
(Gen. 9:6), "If one sheds the blood of THE MAN (Ha Adam), by man shall his own blood be shed."
Eric, you were asked to "Cite the text where God told CAIN or ADAM that it was a sin or wrong to MURDER"

You cited a passage,see above, where God spoke with NOAH. Your twisting will not change who God spoke to and the massive time difference.
rabbee yehoshooah adam

Denver, CO

#43864 Nov 21, 2012
HughBe wrote:
<quoted text>
HughBe --Cite the text where God told Cain or Adam that it was a sin or wrong to MURDER. The fact is they were TOLD otherwise it would NOT have been a SIN.
Eric---(Gen. 9:6), "If one sheds the blood of THE MAN (Ha Adam), by man shall his own blood be shed."
HughBe--- Please read my comment again. Your words are a JOKE. Genesis 9? when was Abel killed? Try Genesis 4
rabbee: well since G-D always gave Moshe TheTorah in morning of day three, i would say they should have known about it by the end of day six.

and so far, there has been no difference. since the last time - G-D gave this same story, and this time G-D giving it again. if anything all you and yo mama, have only gotten worse. so that is less than, no improvement at all.
Eric

Lombard, IL

#43865 Nov 21, 2012
HughBe wrote:
<quoted text>
Eric, you were asked to "Cite the text where God told CAIN or ADAM that it was a sin or wrong to MURDER"
You cited a passage,see above, where God spoke with NOAH. Your twisting will not change who God spoke to and the massive time difference.
Hugh, you have to understand what the Noahide laws are. They were directions unto Noah and his family that pre-date the 613 as basic principles. The question is what commandments existed, past or present, at the time of Noah. The law against murder so existed. Therefore, one of the Noahide principles is not to murder.
HughBe

Kingston, Jamaica

#43876 Nov 21, 2012
Eric wrote:
<quoted text>
Hugh, you have to understand what the Noahide laws are. They were directions unto Noah and his family that pre-date the 613 as basic principles. The question is what commandments existed, past or present, at the time of Noah. The law against murder so existed. Therefore, one of the Noahide principles is not to murder.
HughBe----Cite the text where God told CAIN or ADAM that it was a sin or wrong to MURDER"

Eric--The question is what commandments existed, past or present, at the time of Noah. The law against murder so existed

HughBe---you have to understand that my point is that the LAWS existed from the start and that is why Cain was guilty of MURDER.

The law against MURDER etc. did NOT start with Noah 1000 years later. Almost a 1000 years earlier Cain was held accountable
for MURDER by God.

You must also understand that although it is not recorded in the scriptures the law regarding clean and unclean animals existed from the START of history and hence Abel knew what animals to sacrfice to God.

The same applies to the law against men having sex with men. The story of Lot tells us that there was an UNWRITTEN law of God against homosexuality.

The same can be said about the story of Joseph and Potiphar's wife. This story tells that there was an UNWRITTEN law of God against adultery.

Abraham, the FRIEND of God KNEW God's WAY which are His commandments. God said so, do you ACCEPT God's words?

Understand, the fact that something is not recorded does not mean that it was not known. Actions speak.
toadmann

Pittsburgh, PA

#43877 Nov 21, 2012
youtube.com/watch... ………Elf Ranting I say,,,
MUQ

Dammam, Saudi Arabia

#43880 Nov 21, 2012
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
Nut is a pretty good description.
(Once again, please find a place in your heart to consider and accept my deepest and most sincere apologies for replying to you)
Brother, I do not have personal grudge against you.

I know there are people with different personalities on this thread. There are people who do not know things and are frank in admitting that they do not know it.

Then there are people who act like bullies, threatening one and threatening other and trying to shout down their correspondent with abuses, insults, slangs and soft porno graphic messages.

And then there are "scholars" who have "selected memories".... they are "economical with the truth" and remember only that bit which they need at that particular juncture.

Once you classify, in which class your correspondent is, it becomes easy to deal with him or her.

I deal with different class of people in different ways.... may be you also have some system of classifying your correspondents.

Personally, I do not have grudge against any one, I am not on these threads to exchange hate, hatred and have personal enmity.

So, be rest assures, for me keeping any personal grudge with you.

As regards "truth content" in what we post to each other, there is another power who is watching every words which we write to each other. Let Him decide.
MUQ

Jubail, Saudi Arabia

#43881 Nov 21, 2012
Lecture 7. The message of the Holy Prophet of Islam part-46

Clear Teachings of islam:

Compare all this to the teaching of Islam Here you will find everything clearly defined and in full detail. Clear and complete instructions are avail able for Salat (the five time prayer), for fasting, for Hajj (the Pilgrimage to Makkah), etc.

The manners and conditions for performing these and other Islamic rites have been fully described, such as the prescribed times for the daily prayers, the times for keeping and breaking the fast, the time for the performance of Hajj. In addition,
special prayers and supplications, the remembrance and glorification of Almighty Allah, how to turn to Him in all kinds of needs, how to ask His forgiveness, confession of sins and seeking His pardon and mercy—all these have been taught in a very simple and attractive manner so that the bond of worship and love is established between Allah and His servants.

These teachings provide nourishment for the soul of man, uplifting him and uniting him with his Creator and Sustainer, They are the embodiment of the spirit of religion.

Another aspect of human actions is their mutual dealings and the rules of government. This part of human endeavor has been dealt with in detail in the message of Prophet Moses (Peace be upon him). These laws have been retained to a great extent in Prophet Muhammad’s Shariah (Divine laws revealed to him).

However, they are not as severe, and they have been raised from a narrow national sphere to an all embracing universal level. As their new status required some changes, new components have been added which were lacking in the old laws. For instance, there were no laws regarding divorce and its related matters except one or two rules in the Bible. However, a universal code of life like Islam needed to provide complete guidance in government and social affairs.

Christ’s message did not include these, so the Christian nations had to borrow from the laws of the pagan Greeks and Romans. In Prophet Muhammad’s message, the Divine laws completely cover every aspect of the social and political needs of a civilized society and lay down fundamental principles which have ever since enabled the Muslim scholars to find out viable solutions to all kinds of problems and varying human needs over hundreds of years.

Islam’s Legacy:

Islam has dominated the world for over a thousand years and it has established numerous civilized and stable governments in all parts of the world. All these governments successfully applied and followed the Islamic law. This world has yet to present a better system.

The third aspect of human conduct is their moral behaviour. In the Torah we find some guidelines regarding morality consisting of seven fundamental principles— one is of positive nature like obeying the parents and the rest are negative like:“don’t commit murder, theft, and adultery; don’t give false evidence against your neighbour; don’t covet your neighbour’s wife, or his wealth.” In the Bible, more or less the same commandments have been repeated with the instruction to love others in a general sort of way.

(Contd.)
Eric

Lombard, IL

#43882 Nov 21, 2012
HughBe wrote:
<quoted text>
HughBe----Cite the text where God told CAIN or ADAM that it was a sin or wrong to MURDER"
Eric--The question is what commandments existed, past or present, at the time of Noah. The law against murder so existed
HughBe---you have to understand that my point is that the LAWS existed from the start and that is why Cain was guilty of MURDER.
The law against MURDER etc. did NOT start with Noah 1000 years later. Almost a 1000 years earlier Cain was held accountable
for MURDER by God.
Hugh, exactly my point. This law against murder pre-existed the Exodus. Therefore, it is included in the Noahide principles as to laws in affect during Noah's time. All you are doing is building my point that murder is one of those laws that apply to Gentiles and is a prerequisite to Gentiles coming on to HaShem.

It is the post Exodus laws that are not required.

Since: Oct 12

Location hidden

#43883 Nov 21, 2012
MUQ wrote:
Lecture 7. The message of the Holy Prophet of Islam part-46
Clear Teachings of islam:
Compare all this to the teaching of Islam Here you will find everything clearly defined and in full detail. Clear and complete instructions are avail able for Salat (the five time prayer), for fasting, for Hajj (the Pilgrimage to Makkah), etc.
The manners and conditions for performing these and other Islamic rites have been fully described, such as the prescribed times for the daily prayers, the times for keeping and breaking the fast, the time for the performance of Hajj. In addition,
special prayers and supplications, the remembrance and glorification of Almighty Allah, how to turn to Him in all kinds of needs, how to ask His forgiveness, confession of sins and seeking His pardon and mercy—all these have been taught in a very simple and attractive manner so that the bond of worship and love is established between Allah and His servants.
These teachings provide nourishment for the soul of man, uplifting him and uniting him with his Creator and Sustainer, They are the embodiment of the spirit of religion.
Another aspect of human actions is their mutual dealings and the rules of government. This part of human endeavor has been dealt with in detail in the message of Prophet Moses (Peace be upon him). These laws have been retained to a great extent in Prophet Muhammad’s Shariah (Divine laws revealed to him).
However, they are not as severe, and they have been raised from a narrow national sphere to an all embracing universal level. As their new status required some changes, new components have been added which were lacking in the old laws. For instance, there were no laws regarding divorce and its related matters except one or two rules in the Bible. However, a universal code of life like Islam needed to provide complete guidance in government and social affairs.
Christ’s message did not include these, so the Christian nations had to borrow from the laws of the pagan Greeks and Romans. In Prophet Muhammad’s message, the Divine laws completely cover every aspect of the social and political needs of a civilized society and lay down fundamental principles which have ever since enabled the Muslim scholars to find out viable solutions to all kinds of problems and varying human needs over hundreds of years.
Islam’s Legacy:
Islam has dominated the world for over a thousand years and it has established numerous civilized and stable governments in all parts of the world. All these governments successfully applied and followed the Islamic law. This world has yet to present a better system.
The third aspect of human conduct is their moral behaviour. In the Torah we find some guidelines regarding morality consisting of seven fundamental principles— one is of positive nature like obeying the parents and the rest are negative like:“don’t commit murder, theft, and adultery; don’t give false evidence against your neighbour; don’t covet your neighbour’s wife, or his wealth.” In the Bible, more or less the same commandments have been repeated with the instruction to love others in a general sort of way.
(Contd.)
FREAKSHOW...I told you before that ISLAM is radical and conducts war and hatreds. Islam should have been dismembered during the Crusades. Catholic Dogma has sentenced ISLAM to HELL. You Palestinians cause war and conflict. ISRAEL RULES.....how dare you war-mongering FREAKSHOWS touch our pupils? ISLAM is BAD.
MUQ

Dammam, Saudi Arabia

#43885 Nov 22, 2012
TJ Monk wrote:
<quoted text>
FREAKSHOW...I told you before that ISLAM is radical and conducts war and hatreds. Islam should have been dismembered during the Crusades. Catholic Dogma has sentenced ISLAM to HELL. You Palestinians cause war and conflict. ISRAEL RULES.....how dare you war-mongering FREAKSHOWS touch our pupils? ISLAM is BAD.
You are right, the Crusaders came with the idea to bury Islam and Muslims in the dust.... but unfortunately it were they who were buried in the dust!!

There is some one who is "More Powerful" than those Crusaders and Dooms Day Prophesiers about Islam.

You continue your Tirade, may be you could prove true, once in a Million Years!!
HughBe

Kingston, Jamaica

#43886 Nov 22, 2012
Eric wrote:
<quoted text>
Hugh, exactly my point. This law against murder pre-existed the Exodus. Therefore, it is included in the Noahide principles as to laws in affect during Noah's time. All you are doing is building my point that murder is one of those laws that apply to Gentiles and is a prerequisite to Gentiles coming on to HaShem.
It is the post Exodus laws that are not required.
Eric-- So these 7 principles are what Noah, Abraham, and Isaac followed.

HughBe--- Correct and MUCH more.

Eric--Prove it

HughBe--- Thank you for the opportunity to do so.

Eric--The question is what commandments existed, past or present, at the time of Noah. The law against murder so existed

HughBe---you have to understand that my point is that the LAWS existed from the start and that is why Cain was guilty of MURDER.
The law against MURDER etc. did NOT start with Noah 1000 years later

Eric--This law against murder pre-existed the Exodus.

HughBe---"my point is that the LAWS existed from the start and that is why Cain was guilty of MURDER."

Eric---It is the POST Exodus laws that are not required.

HughBe--- Surely a new twist. We were NOT talking about POST Exodus. You wanted proof that the laws existed BEFORE Noah and I have given them.

By the way BEFORE Noah is over 1000 years before the exodus.
Eric

Lombard, IL

#43887 Nov 22, 2012
HughBe wrote:
<quoted text>
Eric-- So these 7 principles are what Noah, Abraham, and Isaac followed.
HughBe--- Correct and MUCH more.
Eric--Prove it
HughBe--- Thank you for the opportunity to do so.
Eric--The question is what commandments existed, past or present, at the time of Noah. The law against murder so existed
HughBe---you have to understand that my point is that the LAWS existed from the start and that is why Cain was guilty of MURDER.
The law against MURDER etc. did NOT start with Noah 1000 years later
Eric--This law against murder pre-existed the Exodus.
HughBe---"my point is that the LAWS existed from the start and that is why Cain was guilty of MURDER."
Eric---It is the POST Exodus laws that are not required.
HughBe--- Surely a new twist. We were NOT talking about POST Exodus. You wanted proof that the laws existed BEFORE Noah and I have given them.
By the way BEFORE Noah is over 1000 years before the exodus.
Yes, you are correct. I mispoke. I allowed two discussions to go on at once and I mispoke between them.

If you go back, however to he first discussion on Noahide laws, there are but 7, maybe 8.
HughBe

Kingston, Jamaica

#43888 Nov 22, 2012
Eric wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes, you are correct. I mispoke. I allowed two discussions to go on at once and I mispoke between them.
If you go back, however to he first discussion on Noahide laws, there are but 7, maybe 8.
List your 7 or 8 and in doing so if any of them are categories e.g. sexual prohibitions list the components as they appear in the 613.

Note, when you list them as they appear in the 613 you will get much more than your 7.

Besides all of this go back to my many posts above and you will see others. These too can be expanded.
HughBe

Kingston, Jamaica

#43889 Nov 22, 2012
Eric wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes, you are correct. I mispoke. I allowed two discussions to go on at once and I mispoke between them.
If you go back, however to he first discussion on Noahide laws, there are but 7, maybe 8.
Eric-- I allowed two discussions to go on at once

HughBe--- As you know WE were not having the other discussion, so who were you having it with?
HughBe

Kingston, Jamaica

#43890 Nov 22, 2012
Oh Eric, please list the elements in the following meaning SPECIFY the rules involved.

"Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws"

Note what God said about Abraham. Now list the laws, commandments etc.

Prove that most of the 613 are not there so list them.

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