"Discussing" with Church of Christ

Since: Jun 11

Location hidden

#24 Jul 21, 2013
Barnsweb wrote:
<quoted text>
What's 1517 got to do with it? What about those who rejected the first Pole appointed by Rome? There have always existed those who rejected Roman rule in the Church - and many of them were killed by the Roman Church. So that's how they established their authority - by murdering decree. Your ignorance and denial of historical facts must have completely numbed your senses.
Rome would call anyone who believes what God has said above what the Pope has said to protest her, but she has protested against God. Doesn't your Bible tell the story in the gospels where someone from the crowd shouted 'Blessed are the breasts that nursed you', and Jesus replied that those who do the will of God are more blessed. He never taught veneration of His earthly mother - but that we must repent and do the will of God.
All your RCC vs Protestant rants are falling on deaf ears to those who know what you say isn't true because it doesn't match with the what the Bible says. But you can, and will, continue in your delusion and refuse to hear the truth that will shatter the illusion you have chosen to believe instead of the truth of God taught by His Anointed One. Scriptures say whoever will not hear Him in all things will be cut off from the brethren.
Not only do you have your very own one man church now you've got your very own history book as well. When I think of flaky first I think of my mom's buttermilk biscuits then I think of you.
Yolanda Xavier Yodel

Bellefonte, PA

#25 Jul 21, 2013
On Confession, Mike Peterson disagrees with me.

First, I agree that God gave Christ the mission to forgive sins.

Second, I'm no Greek scholar, but I did a search on your quote Matthew 9:8, and found that it is an incorrect translation. According to my internet sources, the word is not plural "men", but singular "man". In Greek, the word is &#7940;&#957;&#952 ;&#961;&#969;&#960 ;&#959;&#962;, and the "&#959;&#962; " signifies a singular. Thus, the crowds "glorified God, who had given such authority to a man." That man was Jesus.

In your next post to me about Piper, you mentioned interpreting Scripture as something only Protestants do. However, you are doing that with John 20:21-23 when you use that verse to justify the need for a man to be the intermediary between the sinner and Jesus Christ. I could do the same thing to show you that it means something different - that the disciples then and the saints now all have the ability to preach the Good News which leaves to the forgiveness of sins - and sins are forgiven by Christ alone.

I have a question - can you show me in the New Testament an account of any of the apostles forgiving sinners for their personal sins, the way priests do for Catholics now?
Mike Peterson wrote:
<quoted text>
On Confession, Jesus disagrees with you.
This sacrament is rooted in the mission God gave to Christ in his capacity as the Son of man on earth to go and forgive sins (cf. Matt. 9:6). Thus, the crowds who witnessed this new power "glorified God, who had given such authority to men" (Matt. 9:8; note the plural "men"). After his resurrection, Jesus passed on his mission to forgive sins to his ministers, telling them, "As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.... Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained" (John 20:21Ė23).
How could the disciples forgive sins if the new Christians did not tell the disciples what they were?
Are you the Church (the community of believers) or a member of a Church?
Yolanda Xavier Yodel

Bellefonte, PA

#26 Jul 21, 2013
Sorry, Topix doesn't like Greek letters, it seems. In English, what it should have said was:

"In Greek, the word is 'anthr&#333;pos" and the "-os" signifies a singular."
Yolanda Xavier Yodel

Bellefonte, PA

#27 Jul 21, 2013
Argh!

anthropos.

Since: Jun 11

Location hidden

#28 Jul 21, 2013
Yolanda Xavier Yodel wrote:
On Confession, Mike Peterson disagrees with me.
First, I agree that God gave Christ the mission to forgive sins.
Second, I'm no Greek scholar, but I did a search on your quote Matthew 9:8, and found that it is an incorrect translation. According to my internet sources, the word is not plural "men", but singular "man". In Greek, the word is &#7940;&#957;&#952 ;&#961;&#969;&#960 ;&#959;&#962;, and the "&#959;&#962; " signifies a singular. Thus, the crowds "glorified God, who had given such authority to a man." That man was Jesus.
In your next post to me about Piper, you mentioned interpreting Scripture as something only Protestants do. However, you are doing that with John 20:21-23 when you use that verse to justify the need for a man to be the intermediary between the sinner and Jesus Christ. I could do the same thing to show you that it means something different - that the disciples then and the saints now all have the ability to preach the Good News which leaves to the forgiveness of sins - and sins are forgiven by Christ alone.
I have a question - can you show me in the New Testament an account of any of the apostles forgiving sinners for their personal sins, the way priests do for Catholics now?
<quoted text>
Here it is July 21, 2013. Do you really think you have the charism to dispute today what was decided by infallible Ecumenical Councils many centuries ago and reaffirmed by all succeeding generations in the East and the West? You need to stop trying to be a Greek scholar and research the history of public and private confession and penance. No Catholic believes a priest forgives sins. By the way it is called The Sacrament of Reconciliation.
Mike Peterson

Jackson, MS

#29 Jul 21, 2013
Yolanda Xavier Yodel wrote:
On Confession, Mike Peterson disagrees with me.
First, I agree that God gave Christ the mission to forgive sins.
Second, I'm no Greek scholar, but I did a search on your quote Matthew 9:8, and found that it is an incorrect translation. According to my internet sources, the word is not plural "men", but singular "man". In Greek, the word is &#7940;&#957;&#952 ;&#961;&#969;&#960 ;&#959;&#962;, and the "&#959;&#962; " signifies a singular. Thus, the crowds "glorified God, who had given such authority to a man." That man was Jesus.
In your next post to me about Piper, you mentioned interpreting Scripture as something only Protestants do. However, you are doing that with John 20:21-23 when you use that verse to justify the need for a man to be the intermediary between the sinner and Jesus Christ. I could do the same thing to show you that it means something different - that the disciples then and the saints now all have the ability to preach the Good News which leaves to the forgiveness of sins - and sins are forgiven by Christ alone.
I have a question - can you show me in the New Testament an account of any of the apostles forgiving sinners for their personal sins, the way priests do for Catholics now?
<quoted text>
There are tens of thousands Greek scholars alive today who disagree with you and each other.

I never interpret scripture. Jesus left a Church that was the pillar and foundation of truth to teach us what that truth is.

Didn't he?

The CC created the Bible to help her teach, 350 years after Jesus died.

Find yourself a good history of the Bible. You need to learn where it came from, why, and how.
Yolanda Xavier Yodel

Bellefonte, PA

#30 Jul 21, 2013
MarkEden,

To answer your first question, certainly! But my dispute doesn't start on July 21, 2013. It started with a simple priest on October 31, 1517 at the little castle church at Wittenberg. And actually, it started way before that - largely a byproduct of a church that had become corrupt.

As to what "no catholic believes", I was responding to the post Mike Peterson wrote, which clearly implied through the quoting of John 20:21-23 that the ability to forgive sins lies with the priest via apostolic succession.

And since you interrupted our discussion, maybe you can answer the question I asked to Mike, which I will ask again here:

Can you show me in the New Testament an account of any of the apostles forgiving sinners for their personal sins?

MarkEden wrote:
<quoted text>
Here it is July 21, 2013. Do you really think you have the charism to dispute today what was decided by infallible Ecumenical Councils many centuries ago and reaffirmed by all succeeding generations in the East and the West? You need to stop trying to be a Greek scholar and research the history of public and private confession and penance. No Catholic believes a priest forgives sins. By the way it is called The Sacrament of Reconciliation.
Yolanda Xavier Yodel

Bellefonte, PA

#31 Jul 21, 2013
Thanks for the advice, Mike, I've been a student of Bible history for a while, but it never hurts to study more.

However, I'm still trying to understand what Catholics believe happens in confession. So, because of MarkEden's response, answer this - does the priest forgive sins?

If the answer is no, then why does a Catholic need to go to the priest?

And as I asked MarkEden, can you show me in the New Testament an account of any of the apostles forgiving sinners for their personal sins, the way priests do for Catholics now?
Mike Peterson wrote:
<quoted text>
There are tens of thousands Greek scholars alive today who disagree with you and each other.
I never interpret scripture. Jesus left a Church that was the pillar and foundation of truth to teach us what that truth is.
Didn't he?
The CC created the Bible to help her teach, 350 years after Jesus died.
Find yourself a good history of the Bible. You need to learn where it came from, why, and how.
Mike Peterson

Jackson, MS

#32 Jul 22, 2013
Yolanda Xavier Yodel wrote:
Thanks for the advice, Mike, I've been a student of Bible history for a while, but it never hurts to study more.
However, I'm still trying to understand what Catholics believe happens in confession. So, because of MarkEden's response, answer this - does the priest forgive sins?
If the answer is no, then why does a Catholic need to go to the priest?
And as I asked MarkEden, can you show me in the New Testament an account of any of the apostles forgiving sinners for their personal sins, the way priests do for Catholics now?
<quoted text>
Then you know that the Bible is a Catholic book. It was created by the CC in the year AD 382. It was crated by Catholics for Catholics as all Christians before 1520 were Catholic.

The better question is why did Protestants decided 1500 years after Jesus to quit confessing your sins to a Priest.

The NT specifically says Jesus told the disciples they were to forgive or not forgive sins. How much do more do you need. Don't you think the disciples didn't listen to that.
Mike Peterson

Jackson, MS

#33 Jul 22, 2013
Yolanda Xavier Yodel wrote:
MarkEden,
To answer your first question, certainly! But my dispute doesn't start on July 21, 2013. It started with a simple priest on October 31, 1517 at the little castle church at Wittenberg. And actually, it started way before that - largely a byproduct of a church that had become corrupt.
As to what "no catholic believes", I was responding to the post Mike Peterson wrote, which clearly implied through the quoting of John 20:21-23 that the ability to forgive sins lies with the priest via apostolic succession.
And since you interrupted our discussion, maybe you can answer the question I asked to Mike, which I will ask again here:
Can you show me in the New Testament an account of any of the apostles forgiving sinners for their personal sins?
<quoted text>
So why aren't you a Lutheran if you think that heretic Priest that broke his vows that he made before God was so great. See you are a Protester against him today.

You Protest any church you don't agree with.
Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

#34 Jul 22, 2013
MarkEden wrote:
<quoted text>
Not only do you have your very own one man church now you've got your very own history book as well. When I think of flaky first I think of my mom's buttermilk biscuits then I think of you.
I don't make up history - history is what happened, making history is happening. Take any topic on the news today and there will be more than one side to the story - often more viewpoints than there are people involved. But to know history, you have to explore more than one viewpoint, or telling, of history. Maybe I'm a flakey biscuit, but I like a variety of toppings - but none of them is p**p - organic preserved accounts - those are my favorites.

Since: Jun 11

Location hidden

#35 Jul 22, 2013
Yolanda Xavier Yodel wrote:
MarkEden,
To answer your first question, certainly! But my dispute doesn't start on July 21, 2013. It started with a simple priest on October 31, 1517 at the little castle church at Wittenberg. And actually, it started way before that - largely a byproduct of a church that had become corrupt.
As to what "no catholic believes", I was responding to the post Mike Peterson wrote, which clearly implied through the quoting of John 20:21-23 that the ability to forgive sins lies with the priest via apostolic succession.
And since you interrupted our discussion, maybe you can answer the question I asked to Mike, which I will ask again here:
Can you show me in the New Testament an account of any of the apostles forgiving sinners for their personal sins?
<quoted text>
What difference does that make? None whatsoever. Is there a verse that tells us how they used the toilet? Does that mean we can't use the toilet? Proof texting is a silly game in which protestants engage along with Sola Scriptura. Ever hear of the Keys?

"Just before he left this world, he gave the apostles special authority, commissioning them to make Godís forgiveness present to all people, and the whole Christian world accepted this, until just a few centuries ago. If there is an "invention" here, it is not the Sacrament of Reconciliation, but the notion that the sacramental forgiveness of sins is not to be found in the Bible or in early Christian history."

And Luther was hardly a "simple priest."

Since: Jan 10

Location hidden

#36 Jul 22, 2013
Know the truth

John 8:31-32

www.roysecitycoc.org

Since: Jun 11

Location hidden

#37 Jul 22, 2013
It's very interesting to read how Luther conducted private confession and absolution. It's also interesting to learn how Lutherans still do it today. Looks like all you low end prots have it all wrong.
Mike Peterson

Birmingham, AL

#38 Jul 22, 2013
Luther was also still a Marian.

From his writings.

Christ,..was the only Son of Mary, and the Virgin Mary bore no children besides Him... "brothers" really means "cousins" here, for Holy Writ and the Jews always call cousins brothers.(Sermons on John, chapters 1-4.1537-39).

He, Christ, our Savior, was the real and natural fruit of Mary's virginal womb...This was without the cooperation of a man, and she remained a virgin after that.(Ibid.)

God says... "Mary's Son is My only Son." Thus Mary is the Mother of God.(Ibid.).

God did not derive his divinity from Mary; but it does not follow that it is therefore wrong to say that God was born of Mary, that God is Mary's Son, and that Mary is God's mother...She is the true mother of God and bearer of God...Mary suckled God, rocked God to sleep, prepared broth and soup for God, etc. For God and man are one person, one Christ, one Son, one Jesus. not two Christs...just as your son is not two sons...even though he has two natures, body and soul, the body from you, the soul from God alone.(On the Councils and the Church, 1539).

Christ,..was the only Son of Mary, and the Virgin Mary bore no children besides Him... "brothers" really means "cousins" here, for Holy Writ and the Jews always call cousins brothers.(Sermons on John, chapters 1-4.1537-39).

He, Christ, our Savior, was the real and natural fruit of Mary's virginal womb...This was without the cooperation of a man, and she remained a virgin after that.(Ibid.)

God says... "Mary's Son is My only Son." Thus Mary is the Mother of God.(Ibid.).

God did not derive his divinity from Mary; but it does not follow that it is therefore wrong to say that God was born of Mary, that God is Mary's Son, and that Mary is God's mother...She is the true mother of God and bearer of God...Mary suckled God, rocked God to sleep, prepared broth and soup for God, etc. For God and man are one person, one Christ, one Son, one Jesus. not two Christs...just as your son is not two sons...even though he has two natures, body and soul, the body from you, the soul from God alone.(On the Councils and the Church, 1539).

It is the consolation and the superabundant goodness of God, that man is able to exult in such a treasure. Mary is his true Mother, Christ is his brother. God is his father.(Sermon. Christmas, 1522)

Mary is the Mother of Jesus and the Mother of all of us even though it was Christ alone who reposed on her knees...If he is ours, we ought to be in his situation; there where he is, we ought also to be and all that he has ought to be ours, and his mother is also our mother.(Sermon, Christmas, 1529).

Whoever possesses a good (firm) faith, says the Hail Mary without danger! Whoever is weak in faith can utter no Hail Mary without danger to his salvation.(Sermon, March 11, 1523).

Our prayer should include the Mother of God...What the Hail Mary says is that all glory should be given to God, using these words: "Hail Mary, full of grace. The Lord is with thee; blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus Christ. Amen!" You see that these words are not concerned with prayer but purely with giving praise and honor..

.We can use the Hail Mary as a meditation in which we recite what grace God has given her. Second, we should add a wish that everyone may know and respect her...He who has no faith is advised to refrain from saying the Hail Mary.(Personal Prayer Book, 1522).
Yolanda Xavier Yodel

Bellefonte, PA

#39 Jul 22, 2013
So to speak more clearly, there is no example of the disciples forgiving personal sin in the Bible. That's all I wanted to know. Thanks!
MarkEden wrote:
<quoted text>
What difference does that make? None whatsoever. Is there a verse that tells us how they used the toilet? Does that mean we can't use the toilet? Proof texting is a silly game in which protestants engage along with Sola Scriptura. Ever hear of the Keys?
"Just before he left this world, he gave the apostles special authority, commissioning them to make Godís forgiveness present to all people, and the whole Christian world accepted this, until just a few centuries ago. If there is an "invention" here, it is not the Sacrament of Reconciliation, but the notion that the sacramental forgiveness of sins is not to be found in the Bible or in early Christian history."
And Luther was hardly a "simple priest."
Yolanda Xavier Yodel

Bellefonte, PA

#40 Jul 22, 2013
Did I say I protested against Lutherans? Did I say I protested against Catholics? You're assuming quite a bit here.
Mike Peterson wrote:
<quoted text>
So why aren't you a Lutheran if you think that heretic Priest that broke his vows that he made before God was so great. See you are a Protester against him today.
You Protest any church you don't agree with.
Yolanda Xavier Yodel

Bellefonte, PA

#41 Jul 22, 2013
All Christians before 1520 were Catholic? I think the Orthodox and Coptic churches might take issue with that statement.

And if you are really wondering why protestants don't confess to a priest, I can go into it, but I think you were asking the question rhetorically to make the point that the practice had been going on for a long time, and the fact that it had history made it the correct thing to do, even though it had no example in the Scriptures.

Understand this - I think confession to a person (priest or otherwise) is incredibly valuable. I think voicing a sin to another person gives you some power over that sin, it gives you accountability when you realize someone else knows about it, and it helps that person to whom you confess know how to best pray for you and the things with which you struggle.

I just question the NEED to have a priest (or a saint, or anyone) in between you and Christ when you need forgiveness. He's the one who paid the price for your sins, he's the one who forgives you.
Mike Peterson wrote:
<quoted text>
Then you know that the Bible is a Catholic book. It was created by the CC in the year AD 382. It was crated by Catholics for Catholics as all Christians before 1520 were Catholic.
The better question is why did Protestants decided 1500 years after Jesus to quit confessing your sins to a Priest.
The NT specifically says Jesus told the disciples they were to forgive or not forgive sins. How much do more do you need. Don't you think the disciples didn't listen to that.

Since: Jun 11

Location hidden

#42 Jul 22, 2013
Yolanda Xavier Yodel wrote:
All Christians before 1520 were Catholic? I think the Orthodox and Coptic churches might take issue with that statement.
And if you are really wondering why protestants don't confess to a priest, I can go into it, but I think you were asking the question rhetorically to make the point that the practice had been going on for a long time, and the fact that it had history made it the correct thing to do, even though it had no example in the Scriptures.
Understand this - I think confession to a person (priest or otherwise) is incredibly valuable. I think voicing a sin to another person gives you some power over that sin, it gives you accountability when you realize someone else knows about it, and it helps that person to whom you confess know how to best pray for you and the things with which you struggle.
I just question the NEED to have a priest (or a saint, or anyone) in between you and Christ when you need forgiveness. He's the one who paid the price for your sins, he's the one who forgives you.
<quoted text>
Do you not understand that Scripture does not address or contain everything? It even declares that of itself! That is precisely why we have Sacred Tradition from the first and second centuries and infallible Ecumenical Councils in following centuries. All Christians in the West prior to 1517 were Catholic. The Copts have their own Pope except for the branch in communion with Rome. The Catholic/Orthodox reunification is well under way and I anticipate the horrid persecution by Muslims will speed this along. High end prots like Anglicans and Lutherans with whom I doubt you have contact can and do confess to a priest.

Anglican:
The Reconciliation of a Penitent
Form One

The Penitent begins

Bless me, for I have sinned.

The Priest says

The Lord be in your heart and upon your lips that you may truly and humbly confess your sins: In the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Amen.

Penitent

I confess to Almighty God, to his Church, and to you, that I have sinned by my own fault in thought, word, and deed, in things done and left undone; especially ______. For these and all other sins which I cannot now remember, I am truly sorry. I pray God to have mercy on me. I firmly intend amendment of life, and I humbly beg forgiveness of God and his Church, and ask you for counsel, direction, and absolution.

Here the Priest may offer counsel, direction, and comfort.

The Priest then pronounces this absolution

Our Lord Jesus Christ, who has left power to his Church to absolve all sinners who truly repent and believe in him, of his great mercy forgive you all your offenses; and by his authority committed to me, I absolve you from all your sins: In the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Amen.

or this

Our Lord Jesus Christ, who offered himself to be sacrificed for us to the Father, and who conferred power on his Church to forgive sins, absolve you through my ministry by the grace of the Holy Spirit, and restore you in the perfect peace of the Church. Amen.

The Priest adds

The Lord has put away all your sins.
Penitent Thanks be to God.

The Priest concludes

Go (or abide) in peace, and pray for me, a sinner.

Declaration of Forgiveness
to be used by a Deacon or Lay Person

Our Lord Jesus Christ, who offered himself to be sacrificed for us to the Father, forgives your sins by the grace of the Holy Spirit. Amen.
Barnsweb

Alliance, OH

#43 Jul 22, 2013
" I firmly intend amendment of life, and I humbly beg forgiveness of God and his Church, and ask you for counsel, direction, and absolution."

I John 1:9 says God is faithful to forgive us when we confess our sin to Him - if we are in Christ. So if God is faithful, it seems CC membership doesn't trust that He is true to His word?, that a priesthood authority is required to sort through intents of the hearts of members? Hardly.

Is there a place for a binding judgment today? Matters of fellowship and erring members is one such example, but we see clearly the CC cares not to touch this by the examples of their allowing some notable members to maintain communion their membership as they voted for abortion or gay marriage - which the CC does not approve of.

You really are quite deluded by their propaganda. The only cure is to study Y'shua for yourself and see what He actually taught. Spend some time with Jesus - sit at His feet and learn the real and unchanging eternal truth - the wonderful words of life.

Tell me when this thread is updated:

Subscribe Now Add to my Tracker

Add your comments below

Characters left: 4000

Please note by submitting this form you acknowledge that you have read the Terms of Service and the comment you are posting is in compliance with such terms. Be polite. Inappropriate posts may be removed by the moderator. Send us your feedback.

Callands Discussions

Title Updated Last By Comments
News The Launch Place announces $200,000 investment Feb 18 Barbara Hudson 1
Johnny paying millions to bisexual (Mar '11) Feb 16 William 41
Ruby Stroud Floyd (Mar '10) Feb 4 Rod 5
Danville, Va last capital of the Conederacy (Aug '17) Feb 3 Econo Lodge 2
Is Martinsville Church Of Christ a big lie? (Nov '09) Jan '18 William 77
News Work crew investigates hole in street Jan '18 Jimbp 2
ashley shepherd (Feb '14) Dec '17 Criminal 4

Callands Jobs

More from around the web

Personal Finance

Callands Mortgages