Did the Pope nullify the redemtive work of Jesus?

Posted in the Callands Forum

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Barnsweb

Canton, OH

#1 May 26, 2013
http://godfatherpolitics.com/10973/pope-franc...

Are non-Christians capable of doing good? That's one question, but is it really the same thing as nullifying the work of Jesus on the cross and repentance to do the will of God?

I'm thinking of the one whose talent was given to the one who have the most increase and wondering the point via the teachings He gave on other topics, such as His 'the sick have need of a physician'.

Any thoughts related to this one?
Barnsweb

Canton, OH

#2 May 26, 2013
In exploring this for 'What about unbelievers', from the record as a whole I think He taught that they could not be saved since they are not about doing the will of God as God said to.
Mike Peterson

Jackson, MS

#3 May 26, 2013
Here are the exact quotes:

The Lord created us in His image and likeness, and we are the image of the Lord, and He does good and all of us have this commandment at heart: do good and do not do evil. All of us.“But, Father, this is not Catholic! He cannot do good.” Yes, he can. He must. Not can: must! Because he has this commandment within him.…

The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone!“Father, the atheists?” Even the atheists. Everyone! And this Blood makes us children of God of the first class! We are created children in the likeness of God and the Blood of Christ has redeemed us all!

Redemption:
restoration of man from the bondage of sin to the liberty of the children of God through the satisfactions and merits of Christ.

Redemption does not mean Salvation

Basically : Jesus died for everyone's sins. I get confused on Calvinism, but I think all Christians but them agree with that.

When an Atheist gives money for the Oklahoma tornado victims, is that doing something good?
Dave P

Versailles, KY

#4 May 26, 2013
The Bible is clear that Jesus died for the sins of the entire world, but that does not mean all men are redeemed. Redemption is the price of ransom being paid to release one from bondage. The price has been paid for all, but not all are free from the bondage of sin because they have not desired it.

Paul states in Ephesians 1 that redemption is through the blood of Jesus, the forgiveness of sins. Our redemption is IN Christ Jesus. With those things being true, how can an atheist be in a redeemed state? Atheists aren't in Christ, they reject Him.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#5 May 26, 2013
Dave P wrote:
The Bible is clear that Jesus died for the sins of the entire world, but that does not mean all men are redeemed. Redemption is the price of ransom being paid to release one from bondage. The price has been paid for all, but not all are free from the bondage of sin because they have not desired it.
Paul states in Ephesians 1 that redemption is through the blood of Jesus, the forgiveness of sins. Our redemption is IN Christ Jesus. With those things being true, how can an atheist be in a redeemed state? Atheists aren't in Christ, they reject Him.
Their issue on this is found in their doctrine of purgatory. What they teach is that until a person fully pays for his sin he is still guilty. So the believer in Christ may have a better record than the atheist but both must pay for their sins while in purgatory. Sounds like they get a chance to pay their own debts for their sin...

This is the epitome of works for salvation. Terrible doctrine.

Since: Jun 11

Location hidden

#6 May 26, 2013
This site attracts the dumbest bunch of prots I've ever ever encountered, one right after another. As one who grew up in the CofC, attended a Methodist college and became a Catholic in my late 20's I can speak with authority in this matter! I visit here just to read the latest lunacy being spewed by latter day Campbellites whose education cannot possibly have included even a 101 course in Western Civilization.
Mike Peterson

Jackson, MS

#7 May 26, 2013
MarkEden wrote:
This site attracts the dumbest bunch of prots I've ever ever encountered, one right after another. As one who grew up in the CofC, attended a Methodist college and became a Catholic in my late 20's I can speak with authority in this matter! I visit here just to read the latest lunacy being spewed by latter day Campbellites whose education cannot possibly have included even a 101 course in Western Civilization.
I took a similar route to you. I was Baptist. Western Civ. 101 started me on my journey.

You have to remember back to where you were at one time before the "light" came on and be more gentle.
William

Opelika, AL

#8 May 26, 2013
Then maybe you can explain the strange tendency of the Vatican to dig up dead Popes. How many times has that happened now?

"He's dead, Jim."

"Very dead, Mr. Spock."
Dave P

Versailles, KY

#9 May 26, 2013
MarkEden wrote:
This site attracts the dumbest bunch of prots I've ever ever encountered, one right after another. As one who grew up in the CofC, attended a Methodist college and became a Catholic in my late 20's I can speak with authority in this matter! I visit here just to read the latest lunacy being spewed by latter day Campbellites whose education cannot possibly have included even a 101 course in Western Civilization.
Way to let your light shine before men there junior. You ever talked to Heath or JR? They share your attitude.

Is this Catholic Recruiting 101? "The dumbest bunch of prots, latest lunacy, not educated". Good night junior.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#10 May 26, 2013
MarkEden wrote:
This site attracts the dumbest bunch of prots I've ever ever encountered, one right after another. As one who grew up in the CofC, attended a Methodist college and became a Catholic in my late 20's I can speak with authority in this matter! I visit here just to read the latest lunacy being spewed by latter day Campbellites whose education cannot possibly have included even a 101 course in Western Civilization.
I knew you were out there in Mike's amen corner. Speaking for myself, you guys can leave us ignorant non-catholic's anytime you like, but if you hang around expect to be challenged...
Mike Peterson

Jackson, MS

#11 May 26, 2013
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
I knew you were out there in Mike's amen corner. Speaking for myself, you guys can leave us ignorant non-catholic's anytime you like, but if you hang around expect to be challenged...
Wouldn't dream of leaving. You are ignorant of what the Catholic Church teaches and the history of the Bible and Christianity. Then you comment on what you have "heard" and not from facts. Ignorance means you don't know.

You quoted some Canons of Law from some anti-catholic site which were lies.

I am not ignorant of Protestantism. I was one.

I am ignorant of BW's Gnosticism. I know it was declared a heresy by the CC but that is all right now.
Mike Peterson

Jackson, MS

#12 May 26, 2013
Dave P wrote:
<quoted text>
Way to let your light shine before men there junior. You ever talked to Heath or JR? They share your attitude.
Is this Catholic Recruiting 101? "The dumbest bunch of prots, latest lunacy, not educated". Good night junior.
It is called defending the faith. You are not educated in Catholic teaching, Christian history and Bible history.

Do you ever go back and read the animosity you put out?
Dave P

Versailles, KY

#14 May 26, 2013
Mike Peterson wrote:
<quoted text>
It is called defending the faith. You are not educated in Catholic teaching, Christian history and Bible history.
Do you ever go back and read the animosity you put out?
You're not defending the faith, you're defending an organization. The reason we all disagree so forcefully with you is because we are not ignorant of catholic teaching and Bible and Christian history. You can stand on your soapbox and declare your version of all these like Elmer Gantry, but that doesn't make it true. All of these things are out there for the world to see. History and more importantly the Scriptures disagree with catholic teaching.

It isn't a good recruiting tool to insult the ones you're trying to win over, whether its by calling them dumb prots or asserting that someone isn't educated in catholic teaching and Bible and Christian history (which isn't true, at least in my case); some of us even have had world civilization education. And if some here don't-so what? Some of the greatest teachers in the world were a bunch of hayseeds from the backwaters of Galilee.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#15 May 26, 2013
Mike Peterson wrote:
<quoted text>
Wouldn't dream of leaving. You are ignorant of what the Catholic Church teaches and the history of the Bible and Christianity. Then you comment on what you have "heard" and not from facts. Ignorance means you don't know.
You quoted some Canons of Law from some anti-catholic site which were lies.
I am not ignorant of Protestantism. I was one.
I am ignorant of BW's Gnosticism. I know it was declared a heresy by the CC but that is all right now.
Why is it that anti-catholics are automatically liars. You can say that I use anti catholic sites but I have been using your own catechism and it does not match with inspired scripture, So what I hear you saying is that you honor the catechism higher.

Purgatory is the area I may use the most because it reveals your true faith. It is more about confidence in good works than anything else because you never know when you have done enough to please God. Your pope says the same thing when he says that even atheist can get into heaven if they have enough good works.

4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7That in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Dave P

Versailles, KY

#16 May 26, 2013
http://www.usccb.org/bible/understanding-the-...

Identifying the reading and interpreting of the Bible as “Protestant” even affected the study of Scripture. Until the twentieth Century, it was only Protestants who actively embraced Scripture study. That changed after 1943 when Pope Pius XII issued the encyclical Divino Afflante Spiritu. This not only allowed Catholics to study Scripture, it encouraged them to do so. And with Catholics studying Scripture and teaching other Catholics about what they were studying, familiarity with Scripture grew.

That paragraph says a lot.
Mike Peterson

Birmingham, AL

#17 May 27, 2013
Dave P wrote:
http://www.usccb.org/bible/und erstanding-the-bible/study-mat erials/articles/changes-in-cat holic-attitudes-toward-bible-r eadings.cfm
Identifying the reading and interpreting of the Bible as “Protestant” even affected the study of Scripture. Until the twentieth Century, it was only Protestants who actively embraced Scripture study. That changed after 1943 when Pope Pius XII issued the encyclical Divino Afflante Spiritu. This not only allowed Catholics to study Scripture, it encouraged them to do so. And with Catholics studying Scripture and teaching other Catholics about what they were studying, familiarity with Scripture grew.
That paragraph says a lot.
Now you are quoting from valid sources. The Bible was never and is not today, the sole source of truth. The Church is the pillar and foundation of truth. Sola Scriptura and Bible study are two different things.

"Average Catholics asked today how often they read the Bible likely would say that they do not read the Bible regularly. However, if asked how often they read Scripture, the answer would be different. Practicing Catholics know they read and hear Scripture at every Mass. Many also recognize that basic prayers Catholics say, such as the Our Father and the Hail Mary, are scriptural. But for most Catholics, the Scripture they hear and read is not from the Bible. It is from a worship aid in the pew."

'This not only allowed Catholics to study Scripture, it encouraged them to do so."

This meant that they were not allowed to study Bible translations not approved by the Church. One is free to read any bible you want but not ever to interpret what you think it means but compare it to the teaching of the Church, but it is recommended to read only Authorized versions that keep to the original as much as possible. Study the Bible along with a Catholic commentary or a Catholic theologian, priest, deacon or approved teacher. That is what is meant by study.

The first Catholic schools were started in the middle of the 2nd century. There was not Bible then, but from 382 to now the Bible was taught in the schools.

For those who could read, the Bibles were chained in the Church because they were so rare and expensive , so they had to read them in the Church. They were chained so they wouldn't be stolen.
Mike Peterson

Birmingham, AL

#18 May 27, 2013
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
Why is it that anti-catholics are automatically liars. You can say that I use anti catholic sites but I have been using your own catechism and it does not match with inspired scripture, So what I hear you saying is that you honor the catechism higher.
Purgatory is the area I may use the most because it reveals your true faith. It is more about confidence in good works than anything else because you never know when you have done enough to please God. Your pope says the same thing when he says that even atheist can get into heaven if they have enough good works.
4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7That in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9Not of works, lest any man should boast.
The CCC comes from Holy Tradition and the Holy Bible.

Once again you are telling an untruth about what Pope Francis said. He said Jesus died for all mankind's sins. He said an Atheist can do good works. If an atheist gives money to a homeless person to get something to eat, is that a good work int Jesus' eyes?

Nowhere did he say an Atheist can be saved. He did not say anything new. Nowhere. Redeemed means Jesus died for our sins. We have to accept that are reject it.

Just like Jesus started 1 Church which has the Truth. You can accept it or reject it.
Dave P

Versailles, KY

#19 May 27, 2013
This meant that they were not allowed to study Bible translations not approved by the Church. One is free to read any bible you want but not ever to interpret what you think it means but compare it to the teaching of the Church, but it is recommended to read only Authorized versions that keep to the original as much as possible. Study the Bible along with a Catholic commentary or a Catholic theologian, priest, deacon or approved teacher. That is what is meant by study.

*The above is what's called "following the tradition of the elders" in the gospels. Don't interpret, don't read others ideas, you must have catholic commentaries or a "priest" to make sure you get it right- "our way".

Now you are quoting from valid sources. The Bible was never and is not today, the sole source of truth. The Church is the pillar and foundation of truth. Sola Scriptura and Bible study are two different things.

*Again, as long as the scriptures take a back seat to "church interpretation", "fathers" and "tradition", we truly have nothing much to discuss. Valid sources-I don't believe so.

Nowhere did he say an Atheist can be saved. He did not say anything new. Nowhere. Redeemed means Jesus died for our sins. We have to accept that are reject it.

*Jesus did die for all men's sins, but all men are not redeemed. Perhaps Pope don't know his "own book" very well.
Mike Peterson

Birmingham, AL

#20 May 27, 2013
Dave P wrote:
This meant that they were not allowed to study Bible translations not approved by the Church. One is free to read any bible you want but not ever to interpret what you think it means but compare it to the teaching of the Church, but it is recommended to read only Authorized versions that keep to the original as much as possible. Study the Bible along with a Catholic commentary or a Catholic theologian, priest, deacon or approved teacher. That is what is meant by study.
*The above is what's called "following the tradition of the elders" in the gospels. Don't interpret, don't read others ideas, you must have catholic commentaries or a "priest" to make sure you get it right- "our way".
Now you are quoting from valid sources. The Bible was never and is not today, the sole source of truth. The Church is the pillar and foundation of truth. Sola Scriptura and Bible study are two different things.
*Again, as long as the scriptures take a back seat to "church interpretation", "fathers" and "tradition", we truly have nothing much to discuss. Valid sources-I don't believe so.
Nowhere did he say an Atheist can be saved. He did not say anything new. Nowhere. Redeemed means Jesus died for our sins. We have to accept that are reject it.
*Jesus did die for all men's sins, but all men are not redeemed. Perhaps Pope don't know his "own book" very well.
The Church = The Holy Bible + Holy Tradition + the Magisterial.

God gave his only son so that all humans, be they believers or unbelievers, could be redeemed by Christ’s sacrifice. Christ did not die for a predestined elect. The Church tells us "Christ died for all men without exception:‘There is not, never has been, and never will be a single human being for whom Christ did not suffer (CCC 605 and Council of Quiercy)." The Catholic Church does not agree with the Calvinistic doctrine that Jesus died for the salvation of a predestined elect, or that certain people are destined to damnation. Church Tradition preaches in unity with Holy Scripture, "he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey them."

The justice of God demands that no human being can be predestined to hell. God desires all to be saved, but only the individual can reject God’s love and his gift of redemption.
Dave P

Versailles, KY

#21 May 27, 2013
Redeemed does not mean that Jesus died for all mens sins. That is true-and the calvinistic idea that some are predestined to hell and Christ didn't die for them is false.

However, all men are not redeemed, because not all men accept the sacrifice of Christ on their behalf. Anyone not in Christ is not redeemed-they are lost.

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