Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#164 Jul 9, 2013
Barnsweb wrote:
<quoted text>
Since the beginning of time it has either been 'works' or 'grace'?
Hardly so my friend. This is the lie of Paul, not Nimrod. It was waiting upon God and doing what He said, or it was taking things into their own hands and offering the fruits of their bodies for the sins of their souls. It was denying what God said to do and turning to do what they thought instead.
It isn't any different today. People do what they think to do, rather than doing what Jesus said to do - to abide in His words, to do the very will of God - the works the really please God. We are to live life so that we have the right to enter into the City of God...at least that is what Revelations says at the end... and the right was because of their works -
We have the right to enter the presence of God, only because Jesus shed his soul cleansing blood as a sacrifice for our sins. No one can enter the pearly gates based on his own righteousness/works.

Since: Jun 11

Location hidden

#165 Jul 9, 2013
Dave P wrote:
<quoted text>
No. What I am saying is this- here's how I would classify most of what we call "Christianity":
Roman Catholic/Orthodox
Protestant- Lutheran, Episcopalian, Anglican, Presbyterian, etc.
American Awakening movements- Baptist, COC, Christian churches, SDA, LDS, non denom churches, JW, etc.
Pentecostal
From what I can see the "prot" churches are close to catholicism in style and practice. What you generally call "low end prots" aren't prot at all because the theology is very different.
Pentecostal is self explanatory; their theology is more like those awakening groups. Most of the posters here find themselves from the baptist/coc/icc/non denom background.
Everyone here has the truth at their fingertips and the ability to understand and interpret the truth. Does my group have 100% truth? No. I'm coc. Come on man! I do not believe any group has the "fullness of the truth"; I don't believe any group is the one true church. The one true church is the one Jesus started on Pentecost. It isn't RCC or COC or SBC or SDA or any other. It's made up of all individuals who believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and respond to that belief.
Then you sir are a just a plain old fashioned heretic who decided one day to make up his own belief system. But you are not alone since there are nearly 40,000 protestant denominations which arrived at the "truth" just like you.
Dave P

Lexington, KY

#166 Jul 9, 2013
MarkEden wrote:
<quoted text>
Then you sir are a just a plain old fashioned heretic who decided one day to make up his own belief system. But you are not alone since there are nearly 40,000 protestant denominations which arrived at the "truth" just like you.
I told you guys a few days ago I was a heretic to you RCC people. No news flash there.

I seriously contend the notion that the cavalry and even BW agreed to- there was only "one church" for 1500 years.

1. There is always only one church, no matter the time.
2. There have been dissentions, heresies, divisions since the beginning of the church. They are documented in the NT. To assert there was only "one" for 1500 years is wrong. There have always been differing individuals and groups.
Mike Peterson

Atlanta, GA

#167 Jul 9, 2013
Barnsweb wrote:
<quoted text>
A lot of truth there, but proving someone else wrong doesn't prove you are right - it hasn't worked for Satan yet anyway;-)
There are 2 answers. right and wrong. There are Catholics and non-Catholic ecclesial communities.
Barnsweb

Canton, OH

#168 Jul 12, 2013
Dave P wrote:
<quoted text>
I told you guys a few days ago I was a heretic to you RCC people. No news flash there.
I seriously contend the notion that the cavalry and even BW agreed to- there was only "one church" for 1500 years.
1. There is always only one church, no matter the time.
2. There have been dissentions, heresies, divisions since the beginning of the church. They are documented in the NT. To assert there was only "one" for 1500 years is wrong. There have always been differing individuals and groups.
Or perhaps better understood as 'branches'? Branches that don't produce the fruit that God demands will be pruned and cast into the fire. Salt that looses its saltiness is fit for nothing but to be cast out and trodden under the feet of men.

Judging by their fruits, there is little doubt of who has been cast out and is being trodden under the feet of men because of their extreme hypocracy and thinking they are hiding their sins.
Dave P

Nicholasville, KY

#169 Jul 12, 2013
Branches is good. What Jesus said.
Mike Peterson

Birmingham, AL

#170 Jul 12, 2013
Barnsweb wrote:
<quoted text>
Or perhaps better understood as 'branches'? Branches that don't produce the fruit that God demands will be pruned and cast into the fire. Salt that looses its saltiness is fit for nothing but to be cast out and trodden under the feet of men.
Judging by their fruits, there is little doubt of who has been cast out and is being trodden under the feet of men because of their extreme hypocracy and thinking they are hiding their sins.
Sure. All of heresies for the first 1520 years were pruned. Since then the heresies are pruning themselves through sola scriptura.

The Church is 2000 years old and has been protected just like Jesus promised.

Since: Jun 11

Location hidden

#171 Jul 12, 2013
Dave P wrote:
<quoted text>
I told you guys a few days ago I was a heretic to you RCC people. No news flash there.
I seriously contend the notion that the cavalry and even BW agreed to- there was only "one church" for 1500 years.
1. There is always only one church, no matter the time.
2. There have been dissentions, heresies, divisions since the beginning of the church. They are documented in the NT. To assert there was only "one" for 1500 years is wrong. There have always been differing individuals and groups.
You are also a heretic to high end and high church prots. Church of Christ revisionist history would have us believe it was underground for 1500 years or so...and I have seen that on a commercially printed wall chart(Standard Publishing Cincinnati OH) in a CofC preachers office. Right now Standard Publishing, the go to source for the CofC, has 3 books about Christian sculpture, painting and stained glass. Funny thing is they contain all Catholic art some of which is in St. Peter's Basilica in Rome and others in great Catholic churches!!! Not one word in the text about the patron of this great art!!! Oddly enough it was learning about religious art that brought me to the Catholic Church and showed me the CofC is simply not what it claims to be and never has been.
Dave P

Nicholasville, KY

#172 Jul 12, 2013
Sorry to tell you this Mark, but you don't know coc very well. The Standard Publishing company is designed for Independent Christian Churches/Instrumental Churches of Christ. Good old non instrumental churches have nothing to do with Standard Publishing-it is not the "go to" source for coc.

I don't believe the church was underground for 1500 years, never said any such thing. I don't believe the coc revisionist history either.

Good thing catholic, high end and high church opinions don't matter isn't it?
Barnsweb

Canton, OH

#173 Jul 13, 2013
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
We have the right to enter the presence of God, only because Jesus shed his soul cleansing blood as a sacrifice for our sins. No one can enter the pearly gates based on his own righteousness/works.
Bobby, my quote reference was from the end of Revelation and what the Lord said regarding the matter of our works - they do make a distinct difference. This is not said to deny that He died that we might live, as we die to ourselves that He may live in us - it is His life in us, which has certain 'works' that we live as He did, we believe what He said is the truth, and that we repent as often as we need to maintain the Spirit which is given to those that obey God.

To think He did it all and that nothing we do makes any difference is nothing taught by God, His Son, or the witnesses He chose and taught that we may also know the same truth He gave first to them.

If what many Evangelicals teach today is true - just put your trust in Jesus - without the works of living the life as Jesus did - how is it He will tell those who called Him 'Lord' and did many works in His name but lived outside the Torah (instruction in righteousness) as 'Lawless' or Torahless? You'd just as well substitute 'Torah' for 'Lawless', as this is the meaning. God revealed explicitly through Moses what is sin and what is not, what sins are worthy of death and which require restitution or other means to bring order and balance as He prescribes.

I don't know it all, but I have come to know God is true and He desires us to abide in the teachings of Jesus Christ, just as Luke records the reason he wrote an account from eyewitnesses of the teachings - that we may know the things we have been instructed in for a certainty.

Are you a student of Jesus Christ, or the student of someone who teaches things are not as Jesus taught?

Are we called to live life as Jesus said to? Or not? And if not, pray tell, why not?
Barnsweb

Canton, OH

#174 Jul 13, 2013
Mike Peterson wrote:
<quoted text>
Sure. All of heresies for the first 1520 years were pruned. Since then the heresies are pruning themselves through sola scriptura.
The Church is 2000 years old and has been protected just like Jesus promised.
Yes, because the RCC first prohibited believers from the actual words of God in Christ, then set out to kill anyone who didn't like their brand of pagan Christianity. In time the abused flock rebelled - just as there are Catholics today who rebel against what offends their soul - they know instinctively that there are depths in the RCC that are certainly evil and seek to hide the most hideous crimes against the innocent as possible. Exhibition of their sins just shows how depraved the heart of their Church leadership is - and has been for centuries - pretty much back to at least near 1000 AD, if not much earlier. What remains is a skeleton covered with finery and robes. Who needs to repent more - those who fail to teach the works of faith in Christ? or those who deny the God that made them?
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#176 Jul 13, 2013
Barnsweb wrote:
<quoted text>
Bobby, my quote reference was from the end of Revelation and what the Lord said regarding the matter of our works - they do make a distinct difference. This is not said to deny that He died that we might live, as we die to ourselves that He may live in us - it is His life in us, which has certain 'works' that we live as He did, we believe what He said is the truth, and that we repent as often as we need to maintain the Spirit which is given to those that obey God.
To think He did it all and that nothing we do makes any difference is nothing taught by God, His Son, or the witnesses He chose and taught that we may also know the same truth He gave first to them.
If what many Evangelicals teach today is true - just put your trust in Jesus - without the works of living the life as Jesus did - how is it He will tell those who called Him 'Lord' and did many works in His name but lived outside the Torah (instruction in righteousness) as 'Lawless' or Torahless? You'd just as well substitute 'Torah' for 'Lawless', as this is the meaning. God revealed explicitly through Moses what is sin and what is not, what sins are worthy of death and which require restitution or other means to bring order and balance as He prescribes.
I don't know it all, but I have come to know God is true and He desires us to abide in the teachings of Jesus Christ, just as Luke records the reason he wrote an account from eyewitnesses of the teachings - that we may know the things we have been instructed in for a certainty.
Are you a student of Jesus Christ, or the student of someone who teaches things are not as Jesus taught?
Are we called to live life as Jesus said to? Or not? And if not, pray tell, why not?
We have been over this many times. Same old arguments that catholics use with the only difference being the rules of what constitutes the necessary works-both equal a form of works righteousness. Having said that our works do count but not but not as a means of knowing Christ/being in Christ. I do not know how to get you to see that.

Knowing Christ is Above All

Phil 3:7But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. 8Yes doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, 9And be found in him, not having my own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#177 Jul 13, 2013
For those of us who know we live in a corrupt world and know that we are in a constant battle with sin, we will love the mercy that God gives us and rejoice in the gospel of our salvation which the law was never designed to fulfill. Now we can go and live a life that is pleasing to God which is based on faith not law.

Heb 11 the great hall of faith which is faith in action without the law.

Verse 39&40 says: These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised, 40 since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

Notice this in verse 31:31 By faith the prostitute Rahab, because she welcomed the spies, was not killed with those who were disobedient.

She was a prostitute (meaning she was disobedient) just like those who were killed. What was the difference-faith.
Mike Peterson

Jackson, MS

#178 Jul 13, 2013
Barnsweb wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes, because the RCC first prohibited believers from the actual words of God in Christ, then set out to kill anyone who didn't like their brand of pagan Christianity. In time the abused flock rebelled - just as there are Catholics today who rebel against what offends their soul - they know instinctively that there are depths in the RCC that are certainly evil and seek to hide the most hideous crimes against the innocent as possible. Exhibition of their sins just shows how depraved the heart of their Church leadership is - and has been for centuries - pretty much back to at least near 1000 AD, if not much earlier. What remains is a skeleton covered with finery and robes. Who needs to repent more - those who fail to teach the works of faith in Christ? or those who deny the God that made them?
That first sentence was written from pure ignorance of history. No printing presses, very few bibles making them expensive.. No education system for the poor, no literacy.

The rest is just Protestant rebellion against Authority and look at where you are now. Everyone picking and choosing from the Truth like vultures dismembering the Body of Christ.

Satan rejoices.

Since: Jun 11

Location hidden

#179 Jul 13, 2013
Dave P wrote:
Sorry to tell you this Mark, but you don't know coc very well. The Standard Publishing company is designed for Independent Christian Churches/Instrumental Churches of Christ. Good old non instrumental churches have nothing to do with Standard Publishing-it is not the "go to" source for coc.
I don't believe the church was underground for 1500 years, never said any such thing. I don't believe the coc revisionist history either.
Good thing catholic, high end and high church opinions don't matter isn't it?
Right. So maybe you could direct us to your source for church supplies and publications. No doubt there is interest in the art and illustrations which appear in your literature and Bibles. Do any of Warner Sallman's paintings appear anywhere in your church environment? So if the Church of Christ was not underground for 1500 years it had to have been created by men not so very long ago. Glad to see someone admit that.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#180 Jul 13, 2013
Mike Peterson wrote:
<quoted text>
That first sentence was written from pure ignorance of history. No printing presses, very few bibles making them expensive.. No education system for the poor, no literacy.
The rest is just Protestant rebellion against Authority and look at where you are now. Everyone picking and choosing from the Truth like vultures dismembering the Body of Christ.
Satan rejoices.
And this comes from someone who has swallowed the lie that scripture has little to no value, then goes on to swallow the next lie that the church can save them.

You need to throw away your tradition which constantly changes with each pope, then exchange your pope for Jesus.
Dave P

Nicholasville, KY

#181 Jul 13, 2013
MarkEden wrote:
<quoted text>
Right. So maybe you could direct us to your source for church supplies and publications. No doubt there is interest in the art and illustrations which appear in your literature and Bibles. Do any of Warner Sallman's paintings appear anywhere in your church environment? So if the Church of Christ was not underground for 1500 years it had to have been created by men not so very long ago. Glad to see someone admit that.
We simply use the Bible. No Standard Publishing books, no international Sunday School books. Just the Bible. No other publications from anywhere else.

Location Mark. In my area, and to the north of here, the Independent Christian/Churches of Christ are the majority. Instrumental music, more "liberal" so to speak. Many churches around here do use Standard Publishing products- because they are of the ICC/COC background. Northern KY/ Ohio is restoration country.

To the south and Texas, the legalistic non instrumental coc rule the roost. Big differences in beliefs and practices.

I am very up-front with the history of the coc. It is one thing that destroys their credibility, telling people they date back to Pentecost. No they don't, they date back to Stone/Campbells.

Since: Jun 11

Location hidden

#182 Jul 13, 2013
Dave P wrote:
<quoted text>
We simply use the Bible. No Standard Publishing books, no international Sunday School books. Just the Bible. No other publications from anywhere else.
Location Mark. In my area, and to the north of here, the Independent Christian/Churches of Christ are the majority. Instrumental music, more "liberal" so to speak. Many churches around here do use Standard Publishing products- because they are of the ICC/COC background. Northern KY/ Ohio is restoration country.
To the south and Texas, the legalistic non instrumental coc rule the roost. Big differences in beliefs and practices.
I am very up-front with the history of the coc. It is one thing that destroys their credibility, telling people they date back to Pentecost. No they don't, they date back to Stone/Campbells.
I simply cannot imagine why a thinking person like you obviously are would want to be a part of what can charitably be described as a fraud even if you are up front with its history. Perhaps it would be different if you could legitimately link what you do on Sunday morning to the early church but you cannot in any way. It's a fantasy, a made up concoction of what you think it must have been...not unlike the ersatz Druids at Stonehenge each Solstice.
Mike Peterson

Jackson, MS

#183 Jul 13, 2013
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
And this comes from someone who has swallowed the lie that scripture has little to no value, then goes on to swallow the next lie that the church can save them.
You need to throw away your tradition which constantly changes with each pope, then exchange your pope for Jesus.
This post comes from pure ignorance.

The Church owns the Bible. Almost every word of the Mass comes directly from the Bible.

Name one tradition that changes with every Pope.

It all about Authority. You believe Jesus did not leave any. Every Christian for 1520 years and 1.2 Billion today believe Jesus left the Church as the pillar and foundation of truth.

You, Bobby , thing Jesus left you as the pillar and foundation of truth.

It all boils down to you. You are Gods representative on Earth.

Authority.

Mike Peterson

Jackson, MS

#184 Jul 13, 2013
Dave P wrote:
<quoted text>
We simply use the Bible. No Standard Publishing books, no international Sunday School books. Just the Bible. No other publications from anywhere else.
Location Mark. In my area, and to the north of here, the Independent Christian/Churches of Christ are the majority. Instrumental music, more "liberal" so to speak. Many churches around here do use Standard Publishing products- because they are of the ICC/COC background. Northern KY/ Ohio is restoration country.
To the south and Texas, the legalistic non instrumental coc rule the roost. Big differences in beliefs and practices.
I am very up-front with the history of the coc. It is one thing that destroys their credibility, telling people they date back to Pentecost. No they don't, they date back to Stone/Campbells.
So even the COC protest each other. Bizarre.

The one thing that destroys all Protestants is Sola Scriptura.

You stay there because to find the truth is very hard. You have to willing to lose your friends and your family's approval.

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