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Since: Sep 13

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#1 Oct 4, 2013
Northern Italy and the Cottian Alps: Part 1

Since the late eleventh century, the Roman Catholic Church has loudly alleged that the early churches, in what is known today as Northern Italy, were simply those churches that had fallen away from the authority of the Bishop of Rome. However, Peter Allix, writing in 1690, shows clearly that these churches were established locally from apostolic times and were not under the Bishop of Rome at any time before the eleventh century.

Of their doctrine and practice he states,“It is sufficient to make them deserve the name of apostolical, that they received the doctrine of the Apostles, as a pledge from the hand of their first disciples, which they preserved so very tenderly throughout the following ages. Allix’s rebuttal of the Roman Catholic charge uses quotations from these churches’ liturgy and from records of the practice of their faith, which regularly included record of increasing disagreement with the Bishop of Rome. At times, Allix quotes the records of the Roman Catholic Church against the believers, showing that the very things of which the Roman Church was accusing them were in fact biblical.

According to Faber, in about the year 406, Vigilantius, a native of Aquitaine, published a treatise in answer to Jerome’s defense of his [Jerome’s] departure from Scripture. In it, Vigilantius “attacked the notion that celibacy is the duty of the clergy; censured…the figment that they [martyrs] are potent intercessors at the throne of grace; ridiculed the blind and almost idolatrous reverence which was paid to their relics; exposed the folly of burning tapers, like the Pagans, before their shrines, in broad day-light; detected the pretended miracles said to be wrought by their senseless remains…pointed out the useless absurdity of pilgrimages either to Jerusalem or to any other reputed sanctuary.

Although Vigilantius’s treatise is no longer extant, this information comes from Jerome as he seeks to refute Vigilantius during the course of their exchanges. According to Jerome, who resided in Jerusalem, Vigilantius “wrote from a region, situated between the waves of the Adriatic and the Cottian Alps. Nor was Jerome able to have Vigilantius extirpated from this region, where he worked as a presbyter, because the bishop of the area agreed with Vigilantius. Faber’s point is this:“This district [where Vigilantius was residing] on the eastern side of the Cottian Alps is the precise country of the Vallenses. Here they claim to have lived at least from the time of Pope Sylvester; and here, in point of fact, as we may presumptively gather from the present remarkable statement of Jerome, that they were actually settled as early as in and before the year 406.

Since: Sep 13

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#2 Oct 4, 2013
Northern Italy and the Cottian Alps: Part 2

“Here, therefore, only seventy years after the death of Pope Sylvester, we actually find a Church in the valleys of the Cottian Alps, the theological condition of which exactly corresponds with the account handed down, from generation to generation, among the Vallenses themselves: that is to say, we actually find a Church, in the very region where the account teaches us to seek it, protesting, through the mouth of its approved pastor,
Vigilantius…against the superstitions of the times, and, in its estimate of those superstitions, openly differing from the bishops of the corrupt Church of Rome.”

The Roman Catholic claim for dominion in the area is refuted by the written record of Jerome’s correspondence with Vigilantius. Further, Pope Pelagius I (555) lamented that “The Bishops of Milan do not come to Rome for ordination,” and this was in accordance with “an ancient custom of theirs.” Allix further notes,“In the year 590, the Bishops of Italy and of the Grisons, to the number of nine, rejected the Communion of the Pope, as of an heretic…protesting [to the Emperor] that they could not communicate with Pope Gregory the First.”

Allix documents the fact that even in the ninth century the churches of Northern Italy were still not under the yoke of papal authority. Rather they were able to hold out until after the death of Claude, Bishop of Turin. Claude, in the mid-ninth century, staunchly defended his diocese against Rome while simultaneously and indefatigably teaching the Gospel and the Bible throughout his diocese by preaching and by writing. Wylie confirms that it was not until the mid-eleventh century that the churches on the plains of Northern Italy finally succumbed to papal authority. Even then the churches in the valleys of the Cottian Alps held true to the Bible in their faith and practice.

These are they who were known as the Vaudois, or People of the Valleys. Faber shows from the text of the Vaudois poem, Noble Lesson, which has imbedded in it the date of 1100, that the language in which the document is written is “derived, without any intervention of an older derivative language, from the decomposed stock of its parent Latin.” This was the language of the Vaudois who had retreated to the valleys of Italian Cottian Alps during the second, third, and fourth centuries. Since the Noble Lesson was one of their documents, it shows conclusively that the language of the Vaudois had not changed substantially in all the centuries they lived hidden in their valleys. This confession of faith in poetic form was used to teach their children “the faith once delivered to the saints.” Here, then, are conclusive pieces of evidence—Jerome’s recording of Vigilantius in 406, Claude Bishop of Turin in the early 800’s, and the language in which the Noble Lesson (written in 1100) and other earlier original documents which Samuel Morland procured in 1655—that the Vaudois or Vallenses really were preserved by God in the line of unbroken apostolic faith from the early centuries through the Reformation.

Since: Sep 13

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#3 Oct 4, 2013
Northern Italy and the Cottian Alps: Part 3

It should be noted, the Vaudois are sometimes called Waldenses. The Roman Catholic Church’s consistent policy has been to try to confuse the origin of the early churches of the Valleys. It contended that it was Peter Waldo who established these churches, thus maintaining that they were heretics rather than the true church. However, the still extant historical facts make it clear that the Papacy’s long record of revisionist history is as false today as it was at its inception many centuries ago. One very important fact is that Peter Waldo was not known before 1160 while the Noble Lesson was written in 1100. In 1690 Allix contends,“it is not true that [Peter] Waldo gave this name to the inhabitants of the valleys: They were called Wallenses, or Vaudés, before his time, from the valleys in which they dwelt. This we find…in Ebrardus deBethune, who wrote in the year 1212, where he asserts, that they called themselves Wallenses…because they abode in the ‘valley of tears.’ so that we see that this etymology rather has respect to the place where they lived, which was in the valleys of Piedmont, than to the name of Peter Waldo.

The testimony of the Vaudois, both in their writing and in their practice, showed that the authority of the Bible continued to be their rule of life. The first distinguishing principle of the Waldenses bore on their daily conduct, and was summed up in the words of the apostle:“We ought to obey God rather than men.”39 The second principle was the authority and popular use of the Holy Scriptures, which they had in their native language. There were those among them who could quote the entire Bible from memory. The third distinguishing principle was the importance of preaching and the rights of believing men to exercise that function. To these fundamental principles, based on the Sermon on the Mount, the Vaudois added the rejection of oaths, the condemnation into purgatory, and prayers for the dead. There are only two ways after death, they declared—the way to heaven and the way to hell. The pre-Reformation Vaudois faith and practice touched many people through those dark centuries. They regularly sent out missionaries (many of whom were merchants) to evangelize Europe, and these missionaries attracted converts from many sources. They were, however, to suffer terribly for their faith.

It is an historical fact that these churches of Northern Italy, which had remained faithful to the Scripture from the time of their establishment in the second, third, and fourth centuries through the Reformation, were the true churches. The Papal Church clearly was, and is still today, the heretical schismatic. It is the historical account of these ancient biblical churches in northern Italy and southern France that the Roman Catholic Church has been trying for at least the past nine centuries to wipe out—ethnic cleansing of them by crusades and six hundred years of Inquisition against them, by destruction of the records of their testimony, and by revisionist history. It is by the providence of God that to this very day Papal Rome has not succeeded.

Since: Jun 11

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#4 Oct 4, 2013
AC you once again cut and paste from cult sites and don't even bother sourcing this revisionist trash.
Mike Peterson

Jackson, MS

#5 Oct 4, 2013
Where's Waldo?
Barnsweb

Canton, OH

#6 Oct 4, 2013
Mike Peterson wrote:
Where's Waldo?
I'd expect that kind of remark from a real idiot. Papal rule murdered thousands of real Christians - as Jesus said, you can know a bad tree by bad fruit. It has been that way since the very beginning of the faith - it's being proven true thousands of times, but followers of a lie continue to believe lies because they cannot face the truth or the actual teachings of the Master Y'shua. It's much easier to follow Popes who major in minors, just as the Pharisees did.

Great post on pre-reformation Church history - glad to hear someone else isn't blinded to the truth.
Barnsweb

Canton, OH

#7 Oct 4, 2013
MarkEden wrote:
AC you once again cut and paste from cult sites and don't even bother sourcing this revisionist trash.
Mark, do you really think anyone actually listens to you or believes a word you say is actually expressing something? God is not mocked, and He will avenge the deaths of true martyrs in His good time.

Revisionist trash? You don't even know what that is. You don't have a clue about what has been revised and what hasn't.

Since: Sep 13

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#8 Oct 4, 2013
Funny Mark. I put the link up in here 7 times today. It is from your former priest. He backs up everything with references. Sorry it goes againt your Catholic dogma

Since: Jun 11

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#9 Oct 4, 2013
Answering Catholics wrote:
Funny Mark. I put the link up in here 7 times today. It is from your former priest. He backs up everything with references. Sorry it goes againt your Catholic dogma
My former priest? Not hardly. Some people will do any thing for a buck and you Sprouls prove it. Does your ex-priest support paedocommunion like you Sprouls?
Mike Peterson

Jackson, MS

#10 Oct 4, 2013
Barnsweb wrote:
<quoted text>
I'd expect that kind of remark from a real idiot. Papal rule murdered thousands of real Christians - as Jesus said, you can know a bad tree by bad fruit. It has been that way since the very beginning of the faith - it's being proven true thousands of times, but followers of a lie continue to believe lies because they cannot face the truth or the actual teachings of the Master Y'shua. It's much easier to follow Popes who major in minors, just as the Pharisees did.
Great post on pre-reformation Church history - glad to hear someone else isn't blinded to the truth.
That post has been shown me dozens of times. They were heretics. If you want to claim your belief system came from them, more power to you. They came from the Judaizers. No wonder you got upset

Only Jesus could protect the true church for 2000 years. Fed , educated , cured housed and saved more people than any other institution in history.

Jeus words : You are Rock and upon you I will build my church.
Roman Catholic Sproul

France

#11 Oct 4, 2013
The Catholics today are not likely at all to resemble the early church. Todays Catholics never get dirty and the wearing of these type of robes and beanies was not practical by the early church. What ever it is the Pope wears on his head probably never was worn by Peter or any of the apostles. Why? because there was no Pope in the early church. No one went around saying Hail Mary, praying the rosary, while selling indulgences for a nonexisting purgatory. Peter was married and the apostles never heard of the trinity doctrine. They baptized in the name of Jesus. I am not sure this Catholic church today was ever part of the early church. It doesn't seem possible.
Mike Peterson

Jackson, MS

#12 Oct 5, 2013
Roman Catholic Sproul wrote:
The Catholics today are not likely at all to resemble the early church. Todays Catholics never get dirty and the wearing of these type of robes and beanies was not practical by the early church. What ever it is the Pope wears on his head probably never was worn by Peter or any of the apostles. Why? because there was no Pope in the early church. No one went around saying Hail Mary, praying the rosary, while selling indulgences for a nonexisting purgatory. Peter was married and the apostles never heard of the trinity doctrine. They baptized in the name of Jesus. I am not sure this Catholic church today was ever part of the early church. It doesn't seem possible.
Here is a teaching moment for you. Did you know if you never said a Rosary in your life, you can still be good Catholic?

It is not an infallible teaching.

As for as Peter's wife, she is never mentioned in the Bible. Jesus told the Apostles to leave everything, not even bury your dead, and follow him.

Did Peter leave his wife or was she already dead, when Jesus named him Cephas the first time he met him?
William

Birmingham, AL

#13 Oct 5, 2013
"As for as Peter's wife, she is never mentioned in the Bible."

But, from the Catholic bible of 1899, we see that:

Matthew 8:14-15 Douay-Rheims 1899

14 And when Jesus was come into Peter's house, he saw his wife's mother lying, and sick of a fever:

15 And he touched her hand, and the fever left her, and she arose and ministered to them.

Mark 1:29-30 Douay-Rheims 1899

29 And immediately going out of the synagogue they came into the house of Simon and Andrew, with James and John.

30 And Simon's wife's mother lay in a fit of a fever: and forthwith they tell him of her.

Luke 4:38 Douay-Rheims 1899

38 And Jesus rising up out of the synagogue, went into Simon's house. And Simon's wife's mother was taken with a great fever, and they besought him for her.

What do the more modern Catholic bibles say?
Mike Peterson

Jackson, MS

#14 Oct 5, 2013
William wrote:
"As for as Peter's wife, she is never mentioned in the Bible."
But, from the Catholic bible of 1899, we see that:
Matthew 8:14-15 Douay-Rheims 1899
14 And when Jesus was come into Peter's house, he saw his wife's mother lying, and sick of a fever:
15 And he touched her hand, and the fever left her, and she arose and ministered to them.
Mark 1:29-30 Douay-Rheims 1899
29 And immediately going out of the synagogue they came into the house of Simon and Andrew, with James and John.
30 And Simon's wife's mother lay in a fit of a fever: and forthwith they tell him of her.
Luke 4:38 Douay-Rheims 1899
38 And Jesus rising up out of the synagogue, went into Simon's house. And Simon's wife's mother was taken with a great fever, and they besought him for her.
What do the more modern Catholic bibles say?
You just proved that the Bible never mentioned Peters wife, just his mother-in-law. Why is that?

Was she dead or did Peter leave her like Jesus said to leave everything and follow him?
William

Birmingham, AL

#16 Oct 5, 2013
"You just proved that the Bible never mentioned Peters wife, just his mother-in-law."

"And Simon's wife's mother..."

Now I realize that Cognitive Dissonance is a real problem for some people but simple reading comprehension skills alone should indicate here that he had a wife.

And as such, a mother-in-law.
William

Birmingham, AL

#17 Oct 5, 2013
"Was she dead or did Peter leave her like Jesus said to leave everything and follow him?"

You just proved that Peter had a wife.
Willim

Birmingham, AL

#18 Oct 5, 2013
1 Corinthians 9:5 King James Version

5 Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and as the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas?

or?

1 Corinthians 9:5 Douay-Rheims 1899

5 Have we not power to carry about a woman, a sister, as well as the rest of the apostles, and the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas?

LOL

I guess it really is all about sticking to The Party Line after all.
Barnsweb

Canton, OH

#19 Oct 5, 2013
Mike Peterson wrote:
<quoted text>
That post has been shown me dozens of times. They were heretics. If you want to claim your belief system came from them, more power to you. They came from the Judaizers. No wonder you got upset
Only Jesus could protect the true church for 2000 years. Fed , educated , cured housed and saved more people than any other institution in history.
Jeus words : You are Rock and upon you I will build my church.
I know you are capable to communicate a thought, so I wasn't calling you an idiot - just that comments like that are expected from some.

So you say they were heretics? What about their faith was heresy? Can you give us a few examples and maybe we could discuss those points?
Barnsweb

Canton, OH

#20 Oct 5, 2013
Roman Catholic Sproul wrote:
The Catholics today are not likely at all to resemble the early church. Todays Catholics never get dirty and the wearing of these type of robes and beanies was not practical by the early church. What ever it is the Pope wears on his head probably never was worn by Peter or any of the apostles. Why? because there was no Pope in the early church. No one went around saying Hail Mary, praying the rosary, while selling indulgences for a nonexisting purgatory. Peter was married and the apostles never heard of the trinity doctrine. They baptized in the name of Jesus. I am not sure this Catholic church today was ever part of the early church. It doesn't seem possible.
Hint, the profile of the Papal hat looks strangely like the pagan fish god;-)
Barnsweb

Canton, OH

#21 Oct 5, 2013
Willim wrote:
1 Corinthians 9:5 King James Version
5 Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and as the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas?
or?
1 Corinthians 9:5 Douay-Rheims 1899
5 Have we not power to carry about a woman, a sister, as well as the rest of the apostles, and the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas?
LOL
I guess it really is all about sticking to The Party Line after all.
Not trying to defend the RCC, but Jesus talked about those who made themselves eunichs for the sake of the kingdom of God - to be wholly devoted to the service of God. I have no issue with it, except they command no marriage for their priests. God never made such a command, and Jesus didn't say it was a command either. That's the real issue in my viewpoint.

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