What Does the Bible Say? The New Discussion Thread

[Sadida]

It's been bandied about that we have so many different threads going discussing Scripture that are all saying the same thing, and that we should consolidate them all onto one thread, to make it easier.

Since nobody else suggested any ideas for what to call it, I thought I would borrow the name from a Church of Christ TV evangelist's program in Virginia/North Carolina.

So, let's abandon all of those old threads and do all our discussing in this one. It'll be much easier for everyone.

If everyone is cool with this idea, you can pick up your discussion where ever you'd like here. Otherwise, if you don't like the idea, please respond that you don't like this idea, and then let's let this particular thread die, as my intention is not to start yet another thread.

Here's hoping...
Nathan

[Pamela]

Nathan, Do you ever sleep?

[Sadida]

I could ask you the same question! ;)

[Pamela]

Aren't you 2 hours ahead of me? It's not as late here.

[Heath]

What does the Bible say about infant baptism?

Or about the Presbyterian church?

Or about homo Presbyterians?

Heath
www.roysecitycoc.org

[Heath]

What does the Bibles say about how a person is justified?

Rom 3:23-26
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His GRACE through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His BLOOD, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has FAITH in Jesus.

Rom 5:1-2
1 Therefore, having been JUSTIFIED BY FAITH, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

James 2:21-24
21 Was not Abraham our father JUSTIFIED BY WORKS when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is JUSTIFIED BY WORKS, and not by FAITH ONLY.

Justified by God's amazing grace.

Justified by faith that works.

Not justified by faith only.

Sorry Evangelicals.

Heath
www.roysecitycoc.org

[Sadida]

Shawn,

Sorry, bud, but as far as I'm concerned, you're not setting the agenda. Someone else want to give it a try?

Nathan

P.S. Permabanned lately? The folks in Royse City CofC must be so proud.

[Sadida]

Shawn,

I'm sorry for responding that way to your questions. You were obviously asking those questions because you are really wanting to have a good discussion, and I went and responded in an unkind manner. I hope that you'll forgive me.

To your three questions:

1) If you'll just agree to my two ground rules, I'll gladly discuss infant baptism with you.

2) Do a concordance search for “presbytery”. 1 Tim 4:14 - Paul talks about the laying on of hands of the Presbytery - which is from the Greek “presbyterion”- meaning the body of elders, senate or council. The folks who started the “Presbyterian” church were referring to this form of church government.

3) The Bible doesn't specifically mention anything about homosexual Presbyterians, at least not that I know of.

Nathan

[PS23LAH]

I'm good with this new thread, thanks

[Heath]

"1) If you'll just agree to my two ground rules, I'll gladly discuss infant baptism with you."

Matt. 7:12 is the rule I'll abide by.

"2) Do a concordance search for “presbytery”. 1 Tim 4:14 - Paul talks about the laying on of hands of the Presbytery - which is from the Greek “presbyterion”- meaning the body of elders, senate or council. The folks who started the “Presbyterian” church were referring to this form of church government."

So Christ did not start the Presbyterian church. "folks" did. Since you admit it's a man-made church then I guess you can call it anything you want. In churches of Christ (founded by Christ Matt. 16:18) we call the church what the Bible calls the church.

"3) The Bible doesn't specifically mention anything about homosexual Presbyterians, at least not that I know of."

Actually the Bible does mention the sin of homosexuality regardless of their religious affiliation.

Rom 1:26-27
26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature.
27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.

1 Cor 6:9-10
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites,
10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

You have not yet renounce homosexual Presbyterians as being wrong.

Heath

[PS23LAH]

Heath I believe you are mistaken. I do believe that Nathan did say that sin is sin as I have said so many times on this website.

Let me say it again sin is sin.

Heath do you ever sin? Yes or No

[Sadida]

Shawn said:

1) "Matt. 7:12 is the rule I'll abide by."

So, that is your suggested rule? Okay, that, plus my two rules of no spamming and no trolling, and we've got us a discussion.

Agreed?

2) Shawn wrote:

"In churches of Christ (founded by Christ Matt. 16:18) we call the church what the Bible calls the church."

Actually, you don't. Nobody in the times of the NT ever heard the word "church". And even "Christ". They would have been calling the different assemblies meeting in Jerusalem, Galatia, Ephesus, etc, "ekklesia Christos". They wouldn't know "churches of christ" any better than they'd know any other denominational label. So, technically, you can't even find "churches of Christ" in the Bible. Why don't you call your assembly "Royse City Ekklesia Christos"?

And the "folks" that started your assembly? I hate to tell you, but it goes right back to Mr. Stone and Mr. Campbell, back in 1800's. You can read more about it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restoration_Move...

3) You asked what the Bible says about "homo Presbyterians". I entered "homo Presbyterians" in the concordance, and came up with nothing. Therefore the Bible says nothing about "homo Presbyterians".

Now, if you are asking me if homosexuality is a sin according to the Bible (which would be an actual good way of phrasing the question rather than your obtuse trying-to-be-clever way), then of course it is. It's not the only sin, and it's not the worst sin, but it's a sin.

By the way, you do know that there are people in the Church of Christ who struggle with homosexuality, don't you?

Nathan
http://answeringchurchofchrist.wordpress.com

[Heath]

"Why don't you call your assembly "Royse City Ekklesia Christos"?"

Because we speak English not Greek in our society. Wow.

"And the "folks" that started your assembly? I hate to tell you, but it goes right back to Mr. Stone and Mr. Campbell, back in 1800's. You can read more about it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restoration_Move... ;

I guess you speak where wikipedia speaks. I know as a denominationalist you want desperately for churches of Christ to be a denomination like yours. That way we are not unique and you can take or leave us. I've proven historically there were churches of Christ America before Alex Campbell. I'll once agian give that proof.

Roman 16:16

The tombstone of William Rogers at the Cane Ridge meetinghouse near Paris, Kentucky. It simply reads:

William Rogers
Born In Campbell Co., VA. July 7, 1784,
Removed With His Father To
Caine Ridge, Bourbon Co., Apr. 1798
United With The Church Of Christ
At Caine Ridge In 1807
Died Feb. 15, 1862
In The 78th Year Of His Age

At the time William Rogers "united with the church of Christ at Caine Ridge," Alexander Campbell was but a young man in his teens, still living in Ireland. The "church of Christ" was not started by Campbell, nor does it follow his teaching. The church of Christ (Rom. 16:16) was established at Jerusalem on the first Pentecost after the death of Christ -- you can read of it in the second chapter of the book of Acts. The seed of the Kingdom is still the word of God (Luke 8:11).

Also...

"The Church of Christ meeting in Morrisons Court, Glasgow" was established somewhere between 1772 and 1782. They had 180 members in 1818. This group also worshipped each Lord's day. As to the order of services, they followed the pattern of Acts two where "they continued in the Apostle's doctrine, and fellowship, and in the breaking of bread, and in prayers" (Acts 2:42). Realizing the importance of doctrinal purity, they explained "it is necessary to guard both against too much and too little forbearance; and especially in respect to the external order of the society." (Reference: The Christian Baptist, Volume 5, Issue 4, November 1827).

Alexander Campbell (born 1788 – died 1866)
"The Church of Christ meeting in Morrisons Court, Glasgow" was established somewhere between 1772 and 1782.

So Alex got into a time machine and went back in time before his birth and established the Church of Christ.

Interesting

Keeeeep trying.

Heath

[Heath]

"Why don't you call your assembly "Royse City Ekklesia Christos"?"

So by your logic any answer you give me from the Bible has to be in the original Greek, otherwise you are not giving me God's Word.

Heath

www.roysecitycoc.org

[Cody]

Since we have moved everything to this forum let me restate.

Pamela has to provide scripture proving FAITH ALONE. I've given greek exegesis upon one of the passages she gave disproving her point and she only responded with the quotations of a man in his commentary. That commentary can be thrown out because i'm not interested in man's wisdom. Especially the wisdom from that man who is a blatant liar. Nowhere in the scripture, Pamela, did Jesus or John for that matter say that salvation is apart from baptism. And were going to just keep going round and round until you prove faith alone biblically, not by some commentary

[Sadida]

I asked: "Why don't you call your assembly "Royse City Ekklesia Christos"?"
Shawn answered: "Because we speak English not Greek in our society. Wow."

Now wait a minute, you are supposed to be the embodiment of the NT church. Where do you get the authority to hold your services in English?

It's not so far fetched to imagine someone who truly wanted to emulate the early church doing it in their language. Muslims only read the Koran in Arabic. Are they more serious about their faith than you are about yours?

Shawn wrote: "I've proven historically there were churches of Christ America before Alex Campbell. I'll once agian give that proof."

I know that the church has been in existence since Christ - in American history the church of Christ has included Presbyterians, Anglicans, Baptists, Lutherans, etc. It goes on from there when you go across Europe, Asia, the Middle East, etc.

As to the tombstones you mention, Shawn - that's a pretty big stretch. You're basing your argument on two tombstones? You do know that others call themselves "Church of Christ" (as an actual name), too, right? The Catholics, the Mormons, Pietists and Holiness Churches, Pentecostals, etc.

Shawn mentioned Roman 16:16. Was this because of the Holy Kiss - where today's Church of Christ is disobedient to a direct command of Scripture?

[Waxman]

Heath wrote:

"Why don't you call your assembly "Royse City Ekklesia Christos"?"
Because we speak English not Greek in our society. Wow.
"And the "folks" that started your assembly? I hate to tell you, but it goes right back to Mr. Stone and Mr. Campbell, back in 1800's. You can read more about it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restoration_Move... ;
I guess you speak where wikipedia speaks. I know as a denominationalist you want desperately for churches of Christ to be a denomination like yours. That way we are not unique and you can take or leave us. I've proven historically there were churches of Christ America before Alex Campbell. I'll once agian give that proof.
Roman 16:16
The tombstone of William Rogers at the Cane Ridge meetinghouse near Paris, Kentucky. It simply reads:
William Rogers
Born In Campbell Co., VA. July 7, 1784,
Removed With His Father To
Caine Ridge, Bourbon Co., Apr. 1798
United With The Church Of Christ
At Caine Ridge In 1807
Died Feb. 15, 1862
In The 78th Year Of His Age
At the time William Rogers "united with the church of Christ at Caine Ridge," Alexander Campbell was but a young man in his teens, still living in Ireland. The "church of Christ" was not started by Campbell, nor does it follow his teaching. The church of Christ (Rom. 16:16) was established at Jerusalem on the first Pentecost after the death of Christ -- you can read of it in the second chapter of the book of Acts. The seed of the Kingdom is still the word of God (Luke 8:11).
Also...
"The Church of Christ meeting in Morrisons Court, Glasgow" was established somewhere between 1772 and 1782. They had 180 members in 1818. This group also worshipped each Lord's day. As to the order of services, they followed the pattern of Acts two where "they continued in the Apostle's doctrine, and fellowship, and in the breaking of bread, and in prayers" (Acts 2:42). Realizing the importance of doctrinal purity, they explained "it is necessary to guard both against too much and too little forbearance; and especially in respect to the external order of the society." (Reference: The Christian Baptist, Volume 5, Issue 4, November 1827).
Alexander Campbell (born 1788 – died 1866)
"The Church of Christ meeting in Morrisons Court, Glasgow" was established somewhere between 1772 and 1782.
So Alex got into a time machine and went back in time before his birth and established the Church of Christ.
Interesting
Keeeeep trying.
Heath

The problem you have is that those churches named "Church of Christ" before Campbell was born, etc, is that they did not teach and believe as Campbell and his pupils did. They didn't adhere to the same doctrine as the movement that Campbell started.

And to be quite frank, according to your teachings and beliefs, they were not a true church and were lost.

The reason Campbell is associated as the founder of the modern "Church of Christ" churches is not because of the name, but because of his teachings and interpretations.

[Sadida]

Heath wrote:

"Why don't you call your assembly "Royse City Ekklesia Christos"?"
So by your logic any answer you give me from the Bible has to be in the original Greek, otherwise you are not giving me God's Word.
Heath
www.roysecitycoc.org

No, that would be by YOUR logic. You're the one binding people to your limited interpretation of Scripture. You're the one telling people that churches like Royse City CofC are only churches like the NT church, therefore the only ones who are teaching "the truth". I'm just letting you see that you aren't consistent with what you claim.

Have you ever been in a mosque? Let me repeat, "Muslims only read the Koran in Arabic. Are they more serious about their faith than you are about yours? "

[Heath]

"I know that the church has been in existence since Christ - in American history the church of Christ has included Presbyterians, Anglicans, Baptists, Lutherans, etc. It goes on from there when you go across Europe, Asia, the Middle East, etc."

That dog won't hunt. Where is your evidence that those were known as churches of Christ???

"Shawn mentioned Roman 16:16. Was this because of the Holy Kiss - where today's Church of Christ is disobedient to a direct command of Scripture?"

I've done it. The preacher for the Caddo Mills church of Christ 10 miles from me does it. Paul was regulating a costume, not introducing a practice. The command is to keep it holy.

"Now wait a minute, you are supposed to be the embodiment of the NT church. Where do you get the authority to hold your services in English?"

Acts 2
I'll let you figure that out.

Still worried about our "holy kisses" and the authority for infant baptism is found...

[Heath]

"The problem you have is that those churches named "Church of Christ" before Campbell was born, etc, is that they did not teach and believe as Campbell and his pupils did. They didn't adhere to the same doctrine as the movement that Campbell started." Waxman the farmer said.

Prove it.