Original Sin & Infant Baptism

[Heath]

To Explain Infant Baptism You Must Explain Original Sin

By John S. Martignoni

"Can you give me a Bible verse on infant baptism?" I often hear this from Catholics who want to explain the Church’s teaching on the subject to non-Catholics.

"Well, no and yes. No, because there is no Bible verse that says, "Baptize infants" (just as there is no Bible verse that says, "Do not baptize infants"). But, yes, I can give you a Bible verse on infant baptism if you understand that the Church’s teaching on this subject flows from the Church’s teachings on original sin and the sacrament of baptism."

http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0502fea...

As you see from the above quote to understand the practice of infant baptism you have to understand the false teaching of original sin.

Original sin teaches that every human is conceived in sin inherited from Adam. Ps 51:5 and other passages are misused to support the notion. The Calvinistic teaching of total depravity is derived from this Catholic teaching.

In the following posts I will show from the Scriptures that humans are conceived and born in a state of innocents. We are are as innocent as Adam and Eve before the fall until we sin and corrupt ourselves. In other words we are innocent until proven guilty by our own sins.

www.roysecitycoc.org

[Heath]

Ezek 18:20
The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

We die spiritually as a result of our own sins. Guilt is not transferred from father to son. Read all of Ezek. 18 and you'll find we are all responsible for our own actions.

www.roysecitycoc.org

[Heath]

Ezek 28:11-16
11 Moreover the word of the LORD came to me, saying,
12 "Son of man, take up a lamentation for the king of Tyre, and say to him,'Thus says the Lord GOD:
"You were the seal of perfection,
Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 You were in Eden, the garden of God;
Every precious stone was your covering:
The sardius, topaz, and diamond,
Beryl, onyx, and jasper,
Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold.
The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes
Was prepared for you on the day you were created.
14 "You were the anointed cherub who covers;
I established you;
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.
15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created,
Till iniquity was found in you.

This passage is not talking about the origin of Satan. This is talking about a human, the king of Tyre. It show in beautiful language the state of innocents that he had until he sinned.

Notice that God made him in perfection and he sinned and corrupted himself.

www.roysecitycoc.org

[Heath]

Rom 7:9-11
9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me.

When was Paul alive without the law? He is speak of his condition of innocence before he sinned and the commandment killed him (Ezek. 18:20). Paul was not born spiritually dead and neither are we.

www.roysecitycoc.org

[JP Manzi]

Paul was not born spiritually dead and neither are we."

Then we have no need for a Savior then.

You are simply denying a fundamental/orthodox christian doctrine Heath.

[Heath]

JP Manzi wrote:

Paul was not born spiritually dead and neither are we."
Then we have no need for a Savior then.
You are simply denying a fundamental/orthodox christian doctrine Heath.

I'm denying Catholicism and Calvinism which you must believe, not the apostles doctrine.

www.roysecitycoc.org

[Heath]

Ps 127:3
Behold, children are a gift of the LORD;
The fruit of the womb is a reward.

Does God give sinful gifts? Everything that comes from God is good and perfect (James 1:17).

Zech 12:1
The burden of the word of the LORD against Israel. Thus says the LORD, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him:

God forms the human spirit in us at conception. Does He give us a sin stained spirit? No, our spirits are holy because they are from a holy God. We become sin stained by our own rebellion.

www.roysecitycoc.org

[JP Manzi]

So you do not think we are born with a rebellious nature?

See the only way for you to justify baptism as a necessity for salvation you have to change the orthodox christian teaching on original sin otherwise for you, babies go to hell because they are not baptised. What do we do then? Ahh, yes, state we are not born into sin / sinful nature.

[PS23LAH]

Rom. 5:12-14,

"Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13(For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come."

The Bible knowledge Commentary says, "The federal headship view considers Adam, the first man, as the representative of the human race that generated from him. As the representative of all humans, Adam’s act of sin was considered by God to be the act of all people and his penalty of death was judicially made the penalty of everybody."1 Also, "The federal headship of Adam presupposes and rests upon his natural headship. He was our natural head before he was our federal head. He was doubtless made our federal representative because he was our natural progenitor, and was so conditioned that his agency must affect our destinies, and because our very nature was on trial (typically if not essentially) in him. Whatever, therefore, of virtue in this explanation the natural headship of Adam may be supposed to contain the federal theory retains."2 Therefore, it should be clear that Adam represented us and when he fell, we fell.
But some may object and say that this is not fair. They will say that we should not be held responsible for Adam's sin because we never sinned. If this is the position that they want to hold, then let's take a look at the cross and see why Federal Headship is important in relation to Jesus.

Jesus represented His people

1 Cor. 15:45 says,“The first man, Adam, became a living soul. The last Adam became a life-giving spirit." The "last Adam" is a reference to Jesus because of the similar relationship that exists between them both. That is, both Adam and Jesus are representative heads. Please consider 1 Cor. 15:22 that says, "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive." This is teaching us that Adam and Christ are heads of groups. Notice "in Adam" and "in Christ" referencing our position in relationship to both of them.
If Adam did not represent mankind, then Jesus could not represent the Christians when He died on the cross. As Adam's offense resulted in condemnation to all people, so also, Jesus' sacrifice results in justification for those who believe in Him (Rom. 5:18). It is because of Federal Headship -- legal representation -- that we are able to be saved at all. As Adam's sin was imputed3 to us because of the Fall, our sin was likewise imputed to Jesus on the cross and Jesus' righteousness is imputed to us when we receive Him. In other words, if it was not for the biblical idea of Federal Headship (of one person representing others), then Jesus could not have represented us on the cross. If Jesus did not represent us on the cross, then it could not be said of us that "...you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God," (Col. 3:3); and, "Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him," (Rom. 6:8).
Jesus represented us so completely on the cross that it can be said that we have died with Him. If it were not for Federal Headship, this would not be possible and we could not have died to sin.

[PS23LAH]

Joseph wasn't Jesus' natural father. He was conceived by the Holy Spirit because if Joseph was the natural father then Joseph sin would be past down though his seed to Jesus and we know that Jesus was sinless.

[Heath]

So LP & LAH are in the sinful baby club.

Rom. 5:12-14,
12 "Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—
13(For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come."

Death is spread to all men because all HAVE SINNED. Paul did not say death is spread to all men because all ARE BORN IN SIN. That is a huge difference.

The death under consideration is the same death of Ezek. 18:20-spiritual death (Is. 59:1-2).

Most denominational commentaries are chucked full of Calvinistic teach teaching. It does not surprise me that you would quote from one.

www.roysecitycoc.org

[Heath]

PS23LAH wrote:

Joseph wasn't Jesus' natural father. He was conceived by the Holy Spirit because if Joseph was the natural father then Joseph sin would be past down though his seed to Jesus and we know that Jesus was sinless.

Are you Catholic? Was Mary not a descendant of Adam?

www.roysecitycoc.org

[JP Manzi]

Hey Heath, give up on this, you are going against fundamental/orthodox christian teachings. You are in the extreme minority on this one. No point in discussing it further with you. I have listened to this argument many times and I personally believe your views are not supported by scripture or tradition.

[Heath]

In Gen. 3 Adam and Eve brought sin into the world. As a result we are born into a world that is full of temptation.

So how do we become sinners?

James 1:14-15
14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed.
15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

1 John 3:4
Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness

Notice how sin comes into our life:
tempted - sin - death

That is the same way sin entered the life of Adam in Gen. 3.

By the way, a person can't die if they never were alive to begin with.

www.roysecitycoc.org

[Heath]

JP Manzi wrote:

Hey Heath, give up on this, you are going against fundamental/orthodox christian teachings. You are in the extreme minority on this one. No point in discussing it further with you. I have listened to this argument many times and I personally believe your views are not supported by scripture or tradition.

I'll think about...

NO

[PS23LAH]

Heath wrote:

<quoted text>
Are you Catholic? Was Mary not a descendant of Adam?
www.roysecitycoc.org

I said past down though the seed.

[PS23LAH]

Heath wrote:

<quoted text>
Are you Catholic? Was Mary not a descendant of Adam?
www.roysecitycoc.org

I said past down though the seed. Do I need to explain to you what the seed is?

[Heath]

PS23LAH wrote:

<quoted text>
I said past down though the seed. Do I need to explain to you what the seed is?

We get our body from our parents, but our spirit is given to us by God.

Does God give us sinful spirits? NO

Eccl 12:7
Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.

Paul preached in Athens and said to people who were not Christians that humans are the children of God.

Does God create sinful children? NO

Acts 17:28-29
28 for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said,' For we also are His offspring.'
29 "Being then the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and thought of man.

So God is our Father and the One who gives us our spirits.

www.roysecitycoc.org

[PS23LAH]

Ephesians 2:2-3

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

[Heath]

2 Sam 12:22-23
22 And he said, "While the child was alive, I fasted and wept; for I said,'Who can tell whether the LORD will be gracious to me, that the child may live?'
23 But now he is dead; why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me."

David's baby died. He hoped to see his son again in the next life. Was David expecting to die and go to torment? NO

David would go to his son in the next life and that would be in a far better place.

www.roysecitycoc.org