The Truth About Autism: Scientists Reconsider What They Think They Know

Amanda Baggs is at the forefront of a movement that's forcing researchers to rethink autism.

[Liam R]

In the vast majority of journal articles, autism is referred to as a disorder, and the majority of neuro-psychiatric experts will tell you that the description fits — something is wrong with the autistic brain. UCSF's Merzenich, who agrees that conventional intelligence-testing tools are misleading, still doesn't think the difference model makes sense. Many autistics are probably smarter than we think, he says. But there's little question that more severe autism is characterized by what Merzenich terms "grossly abnormal" brain development that can lead to a "catastrophic end state." Denying this reality, he says, is misguided. Yale's Volkmar likens it to telling a physically disabled person: "You don't need a wheelchair. Walk!"

Yup! Playing up the existing strengths is very important, but so is helping them function in society.

[Spoil Sport]

Let me take a different tack here. I'm a sort-of stepfather to woman who is autistic -- if you must know, she's my wife's daughter and was in her late teens when I came into her life. Over the years both my wife and I have been surprised and amazed at the daughter's ability to remember fine details and her inability to to comprehend summaries, overviews and generalizations. One example - she's at a complete loss regarding the average length of a feature film, but can recite to the minute the run times of many of the films she's seen (I quit asking after about six of them).
The connection I would like to make (and will probably get severely flamed for) is this: I have recently seen video of chimpanzees easily outperforming humans in a non-verbal short term memory contest (a set of numbers is flashed on a screen; touch the screen in the order and location of the numbers). I wonder if this a similar type of intelligence / thought mode as that of autistic people -- very quick and precise, but lacking in the generalization and "fuzzy logic" that seems to be necessary for verbal language skills (by, buy, and bye, for example).
No, I'm not saying that autistic people are apelike -- but I would like to explore the possiblity and there's a trade-off between verbal language and the precise recall and 3D conceptualization skills noted in the autistics -- one may require the other -- and it may be that the autistic persons have for some reason gone down the non-verbal rather that verbal intellegence pathways.

[Forhealthsake]

Cash:

You have outdone yourself this time. Kudos! Nobody does it better. This is an excellent article.

My two cents worth: No one fits the stereotype; absolutly no one. When we finally learn that simple truth we will have changed for the better, the way we see ourselves and others.

[Forhealthsake]

Spoil Sport wrote:

Let me take a different tack here. I'm a sort-of stepfather to woman who is autistic -- if you must know, she's my wife's daughter and was in her late teens when I came into her life. Over the years both my wife and I have been surprised and amazed at the daughter's ability to remember fine details and her inability to to comprehend summaries, overviews and generalizations. One example - she's at a complete loss regarding the average length of a feature film, but can recite to the minute the run times of many of the films she's seen (I quit asking after about six of them).
The connection I would like to make (and will probably get severely flamed for) is this: I have recently seen video of chimpanzees easily outperforming humans in a non-verbal short term memory contest (a set of numbers is flashed on a screen; touch the screen in the order and location of the numbers). I wonder if this a similar type of intelligence / thought mode as that of autistic people -- very quick and precise, but lacking in the generalization and "fuzzy logic" that seems to be necessary for verbal language skills (by, buy, and bye, for example).
No, I'm not saying that autistic people are apelike -- but I would like to explore the possiblity and there's a trade-off between verbal language and the precise recall and 3D conceptualization skills noted in the autistics -- one may require the other -- and it may be that the autistic persons have for some reason gone down the non-verbal rather that verbal intellegence pathways.

Sport:

I can't comment on your post in detail because I am not well versed on the subject under discussion. However, I find posts such as yours food for thought and I look forward to reading your comments. I have a hunch you have insights that are worth looking into.

And, oh yes, you will be flamed, get used to it. This is a public forum and people can only see from their view point. Some people might feel threatened and close their minds, then flame you, while others will consider your view and try to see what you are seeing. Either way it is important that people share the gift of communication, it is,after all, part of the mix that holds civilizations together.

[RLM357]

Remember Thalidimide? It caused numerous severe Birth-Defects after it was hailed as a miricle drug and women were greatly encouraged to take the Drug/Shot. There has been much to say about all of these innoculations that our children are routinely given today being a cause of the increase in autistic children. Of course the Pharmaceuticles are defending themselves and all of their lobbyists are saying hogwash.
Perhaps some day we will all know the truth but the Odds of Autism are increasing greatly, so I hope and pray that it is soon.

[RLM357]

Miracle

[Spaceboy]

Spoil Sport wrote:

Let me take a different tack here. I'm a sort-of stepfather to woman who is autistic -- if you must know, she's my wife's daughter and was in her late teens when I came into her life. Over the years both my wife and I have been surprised and amazed at the daughter's ability to remember fine details and her inability to to comprehend summaries, overviews and generalizations. One example - she's at a complete loss regarding the average length of a feature film, but can recite to the minute the run times of many of the films she's seen (I quit asking after about six of them).
The connection I would like to make (and will probably get severely flamed for) is this: I have recently seen video of chimpanzees easily outperforming humans in a non-verbal short term memory contest (a set of numbers is flashed on a screen; touch the screen in the order and location of the numbers). I wonder if this a similar type of intelligence / thought mode as that of autistic people -- very quick and precise, but lacking in the generalization and "fuzzy logic" that seems to be necessary for verbal language skills (by, buy, and bye, for example).
No, I'm not saying that autistic people are apelike -- but I would like to explore the possiblity and there's a trade-off between verbal language and the precise recall and 3D conceptualization skills noted in the autistics -- one may require the other -- and it may be that the autistic persons have for some reason gone down the non-verbal rather that verbal intellegence pathways.

Wow, what great insight from your firsthand experience! How cool the article relates the concept that the differences aren't bad. Interesting too, the analogy of gay/lesbians not just being different, but looking back further when they were considered to have defective brains. I can't wait until folks with the condition start solving the issues, problems and conditions the rest of us have. I bet that their ability to see/hear things in unique ways wills add immensely to humanity.

[Will Rogers]

The world is flat. ~Scientist

[Leria]

RLM357 wrote:

Remember Thalidimide? It caused numerous severe Birth-Defects after it was hailed as a miricle drug and women were greatly encouraged to take the Drug/Shot. There has been much to say about all of these innoculations that our children are routinely given today being a cause of the increase in autistic children. Of course the Pharmaceuticles are defending themselves and all of their lobbyists are saying hogwash.
Perhaps some day we will all know the truth but the Odds of Autism are increasing greatly, so I hope and pray that it is soon.

I am wondering as well if this might be coming from inoculations, not because of what is in them, but because the immune systems of the babies and very young children they give them to are not totally developed yet, therefore they have problems using the inoculations and might have them cause the very diseases to a small degree that they are trying to avoid.

I know three families near where I live who didn't have their first few children inoculated. The state then required it for all children, they got them inoculated.... and what do you know? All of them are autistic now! The one family refused to get their latest inoculated...... she is now 5 and has no signs of autism whatsoever.

[Spoil Sport]

First, thank you for your kind comments, Forhealthsake and Spaceboy. Specifically to Spaceboy's comments - you might want to check out Camus (existentialist philosopher -- one book title "The Stranger) and Goodle. Goodle is actually spelled with an umlat. His first name was Kurt and he was a younger contemporary of Einstein at Princeton. Kurt was a mathemtician, and is best known for his "incompleteness" theorem. Taken together these two give me my reason for, as a "breeder", valuing gays and lesbians in this society, and, as a "talker", the autistic people -- as "outsiders" to the general society they can see truths about and within the society that we "insiders" cannot otherwise be cognizant of.

[Yogi Bear]

Liam R wrote:

<quoted text>
Yup! Playing up the existing strengths is very important, but so is helping them function in society.

Liam R, did you see my posts on the other autism thread about changing the communication structures built by the predominantly non-autistic majority in our society? I have not heard you comment on that issue. Perhaps if we as a socienty tore down the barriers, persons with autism WOULD be able to functions independently in society.

[Yogi Bear]

Spoil Sport wrote:

Let me take a different tack here....Over the years both my wife and I have been surprised and amazed at the daughter's ability to remember fine details and her inability to to comprehend summaries, overviews and generalizations. One example - she's at a complete loss regarding the average length of a feature film, but can recite to the minute the run times of many of the films she's seen (I quit asking after about six of them).
The connection I would like to make (and will probably get severely flamed for) is this: I have recently seen video of chimpanzees easily outperforming humans in a non-verbal short term memory contest (a set of numbers is flashed on a screen; touch the screen in the order and location of the numbers). I wonder if this a similar type of intelligence / thought mode as that of autistic people -- very quick and precise, but lacking in the generalization and "fuzzy logic" that seems to be necessary for verbal language skills (by, buy, and bye, for example).
No, I'm not saying that autistic people are apelike -- but I would like to explore the possiblity and there's a trade-off between verbal language and the precise recall and 3D conceptualization skills noted in the autistics -- one may require the other -- and it may be that the autistic persons have for some reason gone down the non-verbal rather that verbal intellegence pathways.

SS, you got me laughing there because I have autism and the same inability to to comprehend summaries, overviews and generalizations, no clue to the average length of feature films, but can recite to the minute the run times of many of the films I have seen.

You raise an interesting question. I think the following research study and its discussion in the context of "learning disabilities" which are inherent in autism, can give some insight. But I would not call people with autism "apelike."

The Research Study: Richard C. Snider, The Effectiveness of Oral Expression through the use of Continuous Speech Recognition Technology in Supporting the Written Composition of Postsecondary Students with Learning Disabilities, Dissertation submitted to the Faculty of Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University in partial fulfillment of the requirements for the degree of Doctor Of Philosophy In Curriculum and Instruction, April 9, 2002.

You should be able to do a google search to get a copy. It is quite long and in pdf or I would post the link. If it does not come up under Title, try it with Keywords: learning disabilities, speech recognition, written composition. It is quite worth reading.

In essence, symbiotic and oral communication occurred much earlier in human evolution than more complex abstract written communication, and the former involves right brain pictoral memory. Symbiotic language consists of symbols and pictograms or other images, and is exemplified by certain types of language such as heiroglyphics or even a more modern example, road signs involving symbols and two or three words on a sign.

The above Doctoral Dissertation researched the differences in coherence and readability for persons with developmental learning disabilities between the following methods of written language:
(1) handwriting/keyboard typing the written communication;
(2) dictating to a scribe/translator who types the communication; and
(3) using continuous voice-recognition (or speech recognition, same thing) software to place communication in written format via dictation to the computer.

The significant finding was the coherence and readability improved drastically when people with learning disabilities speak at the rate of speech -- appx. 160 wpm -- via the voice-recognition directly to the computer.

continuing:

[Yogi Bear]

continued:

Handwriting/Typing and dictating to scribe/translator-who-types both failed due to the gap between the speed of speech (appx. 160 wpm) and the much slower input of these other two methods (appx. 40-90 wpm). Plus, the scribe/translator method implicates the added social interaction problems of autism.

In sum, it appears that persons with autism have far superior language-communication abilities with symbiotic language and oral-spoken language. And I can support this conclusion first hand since I have autism and this is true for me. I believe this goes hand-in-hand with the far superior autism hands-on performance abilities. Thus, things like driving a car, riding a horse, flying an airplane, piloting a sailboat, memorizing and retelling an oral story, memorizing and re-depicting a picture or scene, are all accomplished in a far superior way by persons with autism.

Written language-communication is the BIG problem for people with autism.

We do not process written language in a linear way or follow very well aurally. We process written language by seeing the text symbols of the letters and words being written, and aural information by seeing the letters and words in visual text of the words being spoken.

We can in an instant memorize 100% of the detail of the page of written text in a book, and "read" from that page from our 100% photographic memory as if the image of the page is being displayed by a video photograph.

Autistic thinking styles do NOT mean a person with autism cannot meet the essential functions of a job requiring complex writing -- it only means we have to "write" it at the 160 wpm by speaking it to a computer. Absent this computerized voice-recognition method, most of my written language has no grammar or sentence structure. The grammar and sentence structure are present in my oral speaking. Hence, why the method works.

Persons with autism do have problems with pragmatics and metaphors and the like, but nothing that memorizing millions of patterns of language cannot overcome, for the most part. How does a person with autism do this? By being required to read 24 hours a day 7 days a week from birth throughout adulthood, while limiting the television and movies. This results in the recognition of billions of language patterns. Your example of "by, buy, and bye" is one of MANY, and would not have stumped me.

However, people with autism are very literal, and the big stumpers for me are (1)*normal* neurotypical people thinking I can read the *gists* by reading "in between the lines," and (2) assuming I know American film culture when they use it embedded in language as a short-cut to convey meaning.

One of the best ways to think about how to communicate with a person with autism is to remember Captain Kirk communicating with Vulcan Mr. Spock.

[Liam R]

Yogi Bear wrote:

<quoted text>
Liam R, did you see my posts on the other autism thread about changing the communication structures built by the predominantly non-autistic majority in our society? I have not heard you comment on that issue. Perhaps if we as a socienty tore down the barriers, persons with autism WOULD be able to functions independently in society.

I haven't caught up with the various threads I have been following. One of them is an evolution versus creationism debate and it is generating several hundred posts a day, most of them blithering nonsense.

I will be following up on it. Currently, I am in school learning to be a special needs teacher.

[Spoil Sport]

Yogi Bear (wrote more than I wish to quote here ...)

Sir or Madam -- THANK YOU FOR YOUR MOST EXCELLENT REPLY!!! My two minor quibbles are (1) I was not trying to infer that autistic persons are apelike, but rather attempting to draw a parallel with another version of non-verbal (would non-linquistic be a better term?), and (2) Mr. Spock on Star Trek is supposedly half-vulcan -- and is still a better alien than most of the other "Vulcan" characters that followed him on the various series.

Since I have you talking --you discuss the speed of communication as critical to your understanding and being understood, but you focus more on output from you than input to you. I'm wondering whether speech or text is more amenable to you as input, and since faster seems to be better than slower to you, whether speech compression or speed reading training would be of interest or value to you.

Not looking to pry, of course, but from your response to the example I gave you know that I really do have an autistic person in my circle, and the more I can understand about it the better I can communicate with her. Your Mr. Spock example is helpful, and we've actually used a construct like that -- have learned to say that we'll meet her between 1:50 and 2:10, since if we say "2" then 1:58 becomes (angrily) "early!" and 2:03 gets us told (more angrily) "you're late".

Respond or not, as you see fit.

[Yogi Bear]

Spoil Sport wrote:

Yogi Bear (wrote more than I wish to quote here ...)
Sir or Madam -- THANK YOU FOR YOUR MOST EXCELLENT REPLY!!! My two minor quibbles are (1) I was not trying to infer that autistic persons are apelike, but rather attempting to draw a parallel with another version of non-verbal (would non-linquistic be a better term?)....

Non linguistic, may so if by that you mean in terms of left brain thinking. But persons with autism ARE linguistic in terms of right brain thinking.

Spoil Sport wrote:

Since I have you talking --you discuss the speed of communication as critical to your understanding and being understood, but you focus more on output from you than input to you. I'm wondering whether speech or text is more amenable to you as input, and since faster seems to be better than slower to you, whether speech compression or speed reading training would be of interest or value to you....

Speed of the communication is critical to output, i.e., speaking at the rate of appx. 160 wpm to Dragon NaturallySpeaking voice recognition assistive technology software on a computer. Expressive language -- communication of what I understand and my thoughts about that to others in a manner that is comprehensible to others.

I cannot communicate in a comprehensible manner by handwriting, typing (keyboarding), or using a scribe/transcriber to type at much slower rates of speed.

The speed of communication is not so critical for input as much as the format of the input -- I require seeing the text of what is being spoken on a CART realtime transcription (video captioning) computer screen to be able to really follow it. People with autism do not lack an capacity in understanding (input), which many people wrongly assume.

Many persons with autism such as myself, have the following problems not unlike some of the problems a deaf person has:
(1.) difficulty with speech discrimination when trying to listen aurally;
(2.) hyperacusis (a BIG problem); and
(3.) very poor short term working memory (1-2 digits).

This is why many people with autism including myself require visually seeing the text of what is being spoken as it is being spoken to meaningfully follow it. Understanding the communication, ideas, and thoughts are not the problem, so long as the CART realtime transcription (video captioning) format is provided.

continuing:

[Yogi Bear]

Spoil Sport wrote:

Yogi Bear (wrote more than I wish to quote here ...)
Sir or Madam -- THANK YOU FOR YOUR MOST EXCELLENT REPLY!!! My two minor quibbles are (1) I was not trying to infer that autistic persons are apelike, but rather attempting to draw a parallel with another version of non-verbal (would non-linquistic be a better term?)....

Non linguistic, may so if by that you mean in terms of left brain thinking. But persons with autism ARE linguistic in terms of right brain thinking.

Spoil Sport wrote:

Since I have you talking --you discuss the speed of communication as critical to your understanding and being understood, but you focus more on output from you than input to you. I'm wondering whether speech or text is more amenable to you as input, and since faster seems to be better than slower to you, whether speech compression or speed reading training would be of interest or value to you....

Speed of the communication is critical to output, i.e., speaking at the rate of appx. 160 wpm to Dragon NaturallySpeaking voice recognition assistive technology software on a computer. Expressive language -- communication of what I understand and my thoughts about that to others in a manner that is comprehensible to others.

I cannot communicate in a comprehensible manner by handwriting, typing (keyboarding), or using a scribe/transcriber to type at much slower rates of speed.

The speed of communication is not so critical for input as much as the format of the input -- I require seeing the text of what is being spoken on a CART realtime transcription (video captioning) computer screen to be able to really follow it. People with autism do not lack an capacity in understanding (input), which many people wrongly assume.

Many persons with autism such as myself, have the following problems not unlike some of the problems a deaf person has:
(1.) difficulty with speech discrimination when trying to listen aurally;
(2.) hyperacusis (a BIG problem); and
(3.) very poor short term working memory (1-2 digits).

This is why many people with autism including myself require visually seeing the text of what is being spoken as it is being spoken to meaningfully follow it. Understanding the communication, ideas, and thoughts are not the problem, so long as the CART realtime transcription (video captioning) format is provided.

continuing:

[Yogi Bear]

continued:

You also seem to confuse having to "hear" aurally by visually seeing the text on a CART realtime transcription (or video captioning) machine with reading materials that are already intended to be presented in written format. These are two different things.

And, no, a "speed reading" class does not change the different hard wiring of the autistic brain; it does not help whatsoever. Speed reading only helps non-autistic people, or so I am told it help them.

My reading is quite excellent if the materials are in electronic formats which I can modify to large print font with color contrasts. My reading speed is a function of the interaction between:
(1.) my vision impairments (20/70, uncorrectable for reading, and horizontal nystagmus);
(2.) very poor autistic short term working memory (1-2 digits), requiring slower reading with color overlays to put it in my long-term 100% photographic memory; and
(3.) extreme fatigue, headaches, slower thinking, stinging in my eyes, and a high error rate if I am forced to read hard paper copy print for any length of time, especially any font less than 16 point font on hard paper copy.

If you still have trouble with the notion a person with autism has as great an understanding of things as the most intelligent non-disabled person, try thinking about deaf people -- a deaf person cannot hear, but if they receive the information via signlanguage (for exampple), then they will have as great an understanding of that information as a non-disabled person.

Or, for another example, a blind person cannot see, but if they receive the information via braille or a screen reader then they will have as great an understanding of that information as a non-disabled person.

In sum, what I am trying to tell you is people with autism have very high intelligence and understanding. They just have BIG problems expressing (output) what they know to others in a manner others can understand.

Either persons with autism need to be provided their electronic Internet vpoice recognition computer formats to speak at the rate of appx. 160 wpm to the computer, that in turn converts the speech into written format via software, or ...

*normal* neurotypical people need to learn the language of autism.

Absent one or the other, people with autism and *normal* neurotypical people will continue to be like two ships passing in the night.

[Spoil Sport]

Hey, I'm trying to learn here. Sometimes asking the wrong question narrows the field for asking the right one. And, obviously, you, Yogi Bear, not only have high intelligence but have gone to some lengths to develop it. You speak/write extremely well by any standard, not just in comparison with other autistic persons.

I'm still digesting much of your information. Had to look up hyperacusis (my problem with hearing is tinnitus -- played rock and roll in bars for too many years).

Meanwhile, I would inquire as to a "hands-on" aspect of autism. A previous post of yours mentions driving as an activity autistic persons excel at. The autistic person I know best absolutely refuses to attempt to drive an automobile. My theory (which I invite you to tear to shreds if that's appropriate) has been that she needs to completely process her visual input field and feels that driving would overwhelm her processing capability.

I look forward to your reply, should you make one.

[Liam R]

Spoil Sport wrote:

Hey, I'm trying to learn here. Sometimes asking the wrong question narrows the field for asking the right one. And, obviously, you, Yogi Bear, not only have high intelligence but have gone to some lengths to develop it. You speak/write extremely well by any standard, not just in comparison with other autistic persons.
I'm still digesting much of your information. Had to look up hyperacusis (my problem with hearing is tinnitus -- played rock and roll in bars for too many years).
Meanwhile, I would inquire as to a "hands-on" aspect of autism. A previous post of yours mentions driving as an activity autistic persons excel at. The autistic person I know best absolutely refuses to attempt to drive an automobile. My theory (which I invite you to tear to shreds if that's appropriate) has been that she needs to completely process her visual input field and feels that driving would overwhelm her processing capability.
I look forward to your reply, should you make one.

My son is 12, I have been working with him to get him to understand what he will need to be able to do if he is ever going to get a driver's license.