Messianic Jews say they are persecuted in Israel

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Since: Aug 13

Location hidden

#71591 Apr 14, 2014
JOEL COOL DUDE wrote:
<quoted text>
Unlike the barbaric teachings of the Hebrew patriarchs, Jesus, Krishna or Muhammad, the teachings of the Buddha are lofty.
The followers of the Buddha are the usual riff raff sections of humanity who have more than their fair share of animal passions and personality flaws.
I think you are simply misguided in your understanding of other's beliefs. All true believers think their approach has lofty ideals in comparison to others.

BTW what barbaric teachings of the Hebrew patriarchs are you referring to?
former res

Cheshire, CT

#71592 Apr 14, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
My focus was on the implications of a ban of the religious expression of Jews. If nonJews want to adopt a practice and apply it out of context, well, thats just another example of the normal bizarreness of the world we live in. Like I said before, we see the same thing when nonJews buy Kosher.
I don't blame you for not reading my post on the origins of circ - the conclusion > unknown and debated. It wasn't exactly scintillating reading.

How do you mean "out of context?" Why do pretend not to know why non-Jews have it done. Seems disingenuous. And a waste of typing here.

I buy kosher hotdogs because I think they taste good, not because they're kosher. I'm nothing if not practical and pragmatic.
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
I wont weigh in whether nonJews are foolish for circumcising their newborns. I imagine they do it perceived hygienic reasons, strongly rooted in their culture. Perceptions are stronger than objective evidence.
Good guess. Same with your tonsils.
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
My tonsils were never removed, and I have regretted it for many years. Plenty of infections.
See above.

You may have had 2 or 3 add'l infections as child.

Funny how science trumps belief IRL.

Think evolution, gravity, round earth, climate change. etc..........
former res

Cheshire, CT

#71593 Apr 14, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
One has to expend energy promoting gay rights so that a segment of the populations is allowed to lawfully experience the same opportunities as the rest of us. I dont see the parallel with circumcision. I dont get what rights, in the absence of medical impacts, that the newborn are being deprived on. I dont buy the cosmetic/mutilation argument - besides from ear piercing, we kill skin cells and change our natural beauty whenever we apply makeup. I dont buy the consent arguments - we vaccine newborns without their consent, we dress them up without their consent, we have power of attorney as guardians....
There is no reason that I wouldnt go against Peta. I agree with your logic. But one picks their battles, and the best battles to pick are those that affect your home.
Who erected the stop sign? Where does it come from? On the same subject, I was always hazy on the subject of emergency lights on top of vehicles. Not only police and ambulances, but also private tow trucks, and other construction vehicles. Can anyone put a light on their vehicle?
So if they outlawed snake handling for no perceived good reason, you'd let that go without a word.

And then they decided circ was next. Would you be surprised? Would you regret not speaking up sooner? Precedent etc..

And then they came for me.

That was pretty much my point. Take it or leave it.

Since: Jan 14

Location hidden

#71594 Apr 14, 2014
Yawn. LOL.

Since: Jan 14

Location hidden

#71596 Apr 14, 2014
Yawn. LOL. Hugh, where are you?
former res

Cheshire, CT

#71597 Apr 14, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
The religion has a peoplehood component. There are core traditions that define the people (and the religion). Without the tradition, there is no people or religion. Brit happens to be one of them, thats all.(knowledge of Hebrew is another one) We all have our lines in the sand.
I never said I wasnt traditional. In fact, I consider myself very traditional. Often I note that the traditional is more expansive and more liberal than one might initially assume with limited education or exposure. And I direct that observation not only to nonJews like you, but Jews that have grown up in sequestered experiences.
Scripture is always at the root of the tradition, of course. But there are layers and layers of tradition regarding their implementation. Its not so simple as literal application. The text references circumcision but provides no details regarding the elaborate ceremony that accompanies it. That came later. Different Jewish movements differ as to the weight and appropriateness of details such as these, but they all agree with the textual source of the tradition.
You seem a little loose on the whole belief in god thing though (and please don't say again how practice is more important - I get it). The whole thing is built on an underlying belief. A faith.(The belief in something WITHOUT evidence.)

Moses. The Commandments etc. These were the words of god - no? If not, then your whole belief system could just as easily be built on what a bunch of wise old men wrote down thousand of years ago. And what really makes you think these guys were any wiser and smarter than you.

Maybe one of them, on a whim, jotted down once that you should all lop of your babies' foreskin and this will help to make him a man.

And so for thousands of years, you've blindly been perpetuating the "tradition?!"

Either two choices: these were the actual words of god or you have to entertain the very real possibility that the scenario the line above is true.

And then what is the importance of Scripture?

Interesting article with different points of view - here's just one:

http://www.momentmag.com/can-there-be-judaism...

Joe Lieberman

There can be Jews who are good people without belief in God, but ultimately Judaism cannot continue to exist without belief in God because the Jewish historical narrative depends on it. I was raised in a traditional setting, to believe that we’re judged—and this comes from the prophetic writings—by our behavior, not whether we observe this or that ritual, though we should observe those rituals. Judaism without God, in my opinion, will not remain Judaism and will ultimately vanish. My somewhat circular logic is that I accept the truth of the promise that God made to our forefathers and foremothers: that the Jewish people will be eternal. But I also believe that the promise was conditioned on a continuing belief in God.

Senator Joe Lieberman is an Independent senator from Connecticut and author of a new book on the Sabbath, The Gift of Rest.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#71598 Apr 14, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
I don't blame you for not reading my post on the origins of circ - the conclusion > unknown and debated. It wasn't exactly scintillating reading.
How do you mean "out of context?" Why do pretend not to know why non-Jews have it done. Seems disingenuous. And a waste of typing here.
I buy kosher hotdogs because I think they taste good, not because they're kosher. I'm nothing if not practical and pragmatic.
<quoted text>
Good guess. Same with your tonsils.
<quoted text>
See above.
You may have had 2 or 3 add'l infections as child.
Funny how science trumps belief IRL.
Think evolution, gravity, round earth, climate change. etc..........
I did read your post on the origins. I get it. But you need to understand that people make a similar argument about kosher - that it was for health reasons. Maybe. Maybe not,. But whats relevant is the role of either practices (brit and koher) on the system now (now as defined as the last 2000 years). It is about membership, not health. In other words, anthropologists can lecture us, but they miss the whole point - the function of the institution internally.

I have problems with my tonsils as an adult as well as a child. One of them is much larger than the others. So I am not swayed by your metaphor.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#71599 Apr 14, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
So if they outlawed snake handling for no perceived good reason, you'd let that go without a word.
And then they decided circ was next. Would you be surprised? Would you regret not speaking up sooner? Precedent etc..
And then they came for me.
That was pretty much my point. Take it or leave it.
I get it. Like I said, I agreed with you from the get go. Just being practical, thats why I wouldnt stick my neck out - plenty of other stuff on my desk.
Eric

Medinah, IL

#71600 Apr 14, 2014

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#71601 Apr 14, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
You seem a little loose on the whole belief in god thing though (and please don't say again how practice is more important - I get it). The whole thing is built on an underlying belief. A faith.(The belief in something WITHOUT evidence.)
Moses. The Commandments etc. These were the words of god - no? If not, then your whole belief system could just as easily be built on what a bunch of wise old men wrote down thousand of years ago. And what really makes you think these guys were any wiser and smarter than you.
Maybe one of them, on a whim, jotted down once that you should all lop of your babies' foreskin and this will help to make him a man.
And so for thousands of years, you've blindly been perpetuating the "tradition?!"
Either two choices: these were the actual words of god or you have to entertain the very real possibility that the scenario the line above is true.
And then what is the importance of Scripture?
Tradition is important. In Judaism we have customs and we have law. Both are considered tradition. Like I said, there are core components which have function, irrespective on their sources. No where in the law does it say one has to know Hebrew to be a Jew, but without Hebrew one can not fully engage in all the activities that make Judaism Judaism. Brit is an initiation ceremony. Thats what makes the people. How truthful, using Western standards, that the bible may be is irrelevant. Its done. It has a function.(and as far I as know it has benign consequences) You should watch Fiddler in the Roof.

And yes, Judaism is based on practice. And peoplehood. The only real canon is that God is one. Thats the core belief. The rest is commentary.

Different Jewish movements have different viewpoints about the authenticity of the Torah ranging from literal word of god to ...mans recollection or interpretation of what man thought God was saying.....But yet all the main movements believe in following (some semblance of) the tradition, regardless.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#71602 Apr 14, 2014
Eric wrote:
Happy Passover
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v =rP4nNBVOA-gXX
Hey!

Happy tax day!

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#71603 Apr 14, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
Interesting article with different points of view - here's just one:
http://www.momentmag.com/can-there-be-judaism...
Joe Lieberman
There can be Jews who are good people without belief in God, but ultimately Judaism cannot continue to exist without belief in God because the Jewish historical narrative depends on it. I was raised in a traditional setting, to believe that we’re judged—and this comes from the prophetic writings—by our behavior, not whether we observe this or that ritual, though we should observe those rituals. Judaism without God, in my opinion, will not remain Judaism and will ultimately vanish. My somewhat circular logic is that I accept the truth of the promise that God made to our forefathers and foremothers: that the Jewish people will be eternal. But I also believe that the promise was conditioned on a continuing belief in God.
Senator Joe Lieberman is an Independent senator from Connecticut and author of a new book on the Sabbath, The Gift of Rest.
I agree with him.

I have nothing against the Humanist movement of Judaism (Judaism without God). I consider the people Jews (if they were born Jewish) and recognize they are searching for something like the rest of us. However, I doubt their movement will survive past each individual - because there is no mechanism to promote continuity. Because I agree with Lieberman's observation - without God the system makes no sense.

That all said, there are many ways to define God within the tradition.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#71604 Apr 14, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
And so for thousands of years, you've blindly been perpetuating the "tradition?!"
The tradition is the way Jews connect to God. Its a spiritual practice. Its not random - it provides benefits. The sense of connection.
Eric

Medinah, IL

#71605 Apr 14, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
Hey!
Happy tax day!
yuck
former res

Cheshire, CT

#71606 Apr 14, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
I did read your post on the origins. I get it. But you need to understand that people make a similar argument about kosher - that it was for health reasons. Maybe. Maybe not,. But whats relevant is the role of either practices (brit and koher) on the system now (now as defined as the last 2000 years). It is about membership, not health. In other words, anthropologists can lecture us, but they miss the whole point - the function of the institution internally.
I have problems with my tonsils as an adult as well as a child. One of them is much larger than the others. So I am not swayed by your metaphor.
Darby describes these theories as "conflicting", and states that "the only point of agreement among proponents of the various theories is that promoting good health had nothing to do with it."[2]
former res

Cheshire, CT

#71607 Apr 14, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
Yep, the guy hated Jews, but managed to kill 2 Christians (and 1 Jew).
Dove is one of the few (or perhaps the only) mass produced American brands of chocolate that I like.
We already colored our egg (turns out egg coloring is also a sephardic Jewish custom)
Shalom
former res

Cheshire, CT

#71608 Apr 14, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
I did read your post on the origins. I get it. But you need to understand that people make a similar argument about kosher - that it was for health reasons. Maybe. Maybe not,. But whats relevant is the role of either practices (brit and koher) on the system now (now as defined as the last 2000 years). It is about membership, not health. In other words, anthropologists can lecture us, but they miss the whole point - the function of the institution internally.
I have problems with my tonsils as an adult as well as a child. One of them is much larger than the others. So I am not swayed by your metaphor.
You may be a special case:

Effectiveness[edit]

The procedure is often not effective or only modestly effective, and does not get rid of sore throats altogether.[19][20] In children there is only a short-term benefit; without tonsillectomy a child who meets these strict criteria will probably have 6 throat infections in the next two years while one who has surgery will probably have 3 throat infections. After two years there is little difference in the rate of infection.[21]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonsillectomy#Ef...

My congenital weakness has been ear infection in times of stress. Painful with side of head swollen out. Need Percocet and antibiotic pill and ear drops. Fever etc. Not for several years so maybe just growing pains of young adulthood.

Since: Jan 14

Location hidden

#71609 Apr 14, 2014
MYSTICAL MODEL life & OF APPEARANCE OF LIFE FORMS SCORES OVER SCIENTIFIC EXPLANATIONS

The number of sentient principles that inhere in the material force field that on being subjected to appropriate stimuli seek emergence or materialization.

Each sentient principle with its innate information materializes as a specific species.

Interestingly, the sentient principles form a gradation as seen in the graded morphological features/graded functional capacities of the various species that they (sentient principles) gave rise to over the geological ages by an act of self-emergence.

The entire series of sentient species is arranged as a beautiful gradation that begins with a monocellular form and ends in the magnificence of the human species.

Genetic variation occurs within a species as the members of a species (that're based on the information content of a corresponding underlying sentient principle) seek to adapt themselves to different environments - thus dogs comes in various sizes and shapes but every kind of dog despite small differences in anatomy reside in the same family - the dog family.

Once the innate information content of a sentient principle (that gives rise to a particular species) is exhausted, the particular species reaches its maximum potential and can progress no further.

This mystical approach that easily explains the origin of sentience and the appearance of sentient forms obviates the falsehood of materialistic science that seeks to explain the origin of life from lifeless matter (as if such a thing is ever possible!) and the illogical explanation of the appearance of the species coming about through common descent from a self-replicating monocellular organism involving micro-changes (natural selection/genetic mutations) that somehow over large stretches of time gave rise to the gradation of species. LOL.

Not surprisingly, using the absurd crass materialistic scientific model, life cannot be created from scratch nor have any transitional forms been discovered nor can a corpse be brought back to life.

Materialistic science rises and falls with a huge thud by its own paradoxes and will vanish after a time when people fully see through its lies, contradictions and falsehoods.

Since: Jan 14

Location hidden

#71610 Apr 14, 2014
Typo

MYSTICAL MODEL OF LIFE & OF APPEARANCE OF LIFE FORMS SCORES OVER SCIENTIFIC EXPLANATIONS

Since: Jan 14

Location hidden

#71611 Apr 14, 2014
Sentience originates only from sentience.

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