Abortion doctor wants to join Planned...

Abortion doctor wants to join Planned Parenthood suit against Missouri

There are 39 comments on the Kansas City Star story from Aug 30, 2007, titled Abortion doctor wants to join Planned Parenthood suit against Missouri. In it, Kansas City Star reports that:

A St. Louis-area physician has filed to join a federal lawsuit that seeks to ban the state from enforcing a new law regulating abortion clinics.

Allen Palmer, who operates a private abortion facility in Bridgeton, Mo., will appear in federal court Friday morning, asking that a restraining order issued earlier this week also apply to his clinic, Women's Care Gynecology, Inc.

Earlier this month, Planned Parenthood of Kansas and Mid-Missouri sued the state, saying the new regulations would place an 'undue burden' on women seeking abortions. The law would require abortion clinics to meet the requirements of an ambulatory surgical care facility. Read more

Join the discussion below, or Read more at Kansas City Star.

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John

United States

#21 Oct 6, 2007
sickpoo, what is the defination of murder? Is it not; killing without the need for self defense? Or maybe you think that murder is in the commission of a crime. What I was getting at when I said what I said was that the womb is not a battle-ground. There are no mine fields there. No combatants. No evil doers. Just humans that are in a weak and vulnerable possition. If you don't like my way of saying what I said that is ok because it hurts as much as a commercial on tv, none. But the damage this is doing to the America of tomorrow is beyond scope. We will never know how much damage is done because the damage has already done it's damage. No amount of quoting people to show how smart or how "stupid" we seem will change that.
Abortion is wrong, Period. If this is allowed to continue, then what is next? Euthanasia? Even in that way of thinking it is not logical. Why not use these "fetuses" as organ donors? Or is that beyond your comprehension? Does that not agree with your way of thinking? Then....Why not do away with all that disagree with you? That would be logical, wouldn't it? Then you'd have no opposition. Everything you'd say would be ok.
But God does not work like that. God gives us the choice to do good or do evil. If we choose evil, then evil is done. Be it legal or not, it is evil and killing is evil. And even if you don't agree with the concept of God, is not evil in your dictionary? It is in mine. And abortion is evil. More to the point, it is murder. Plain and simple. No matter how you cut it, crushing a developing child's head and sucking it out with a wet vac is inhuman.
People have given the unborn child the name of fetus to make it less human. It does not make it un-human.. I will pray for you because you need it. And I will pray for those unborn who will never see the light of day because of some legislators decision. I pray for those legislators, too. We all need that prayer. Most of all me and the ones who see abortion as an evil act and can do nothing about it buy cry and ask, "why"? "Why"? "WHY"?
If you have a child be greatful. We were never able to concieve a child. Our adopted son was that God-send we had prayed for for so long and we are greatful beyond words. And I will stand for adoption instead of abortion until I die.

“Proud to be a Geek”

Since: Jun 07

Denver, Co

#22 Oct 6, 2007
It is apparent that most of you do not understand what is going on in this situation. Abortion clinics under their current standard are perfectly safe, the state if Missouri is trying to put standards in place that are usually reserved for *Surgical* facilities, which abortion clinics are not. The new standards they are trying to enforce are not only completely unnecessary to ensure safety, but are far more expensive than those individual facilities can afford, and will most likely close them down. That is exactly what the state of Missouri is trying to do, close down a legal facility by trying to force completely unnecessary modifications to their facility, in the name of 'safety'.

Apparently the law-makers in Missouri don't like womens rights to safe abortions, so they are trying to get it shut down in their state without regards to their Federally protected rights. Planned Parenthood is the great scapegoat for the conservative pro-lifers who's agenda is to control the reproductive rights of women. These law-makers don't know the great things Planned Parenthood does for their community and only wants their people controlled.

And isn't it funny that the current abortion safety standards in place in all other 49 states is fine, but in Missouri it suddenly isn't good enough. Especially when the 'safety' precautions that the Missouri government wants enforced will in no way make abortions any safer. If it would make abortions safer, you'd have no objections from anyone. But that's not the case here. It is rediculious that some of you people can't see that
John

United States

#23 Oct 7, 2007
If a woman's health was the only issue, I would not have a stand on abortion. But the reality is that abortion has gone from aiding the doctor to save the woman's life to helping the woman to "cull" children. In other times, the terms of people not wanted changed to make the distruction of these people easier for the population to absorb. This is happening in the struggle for these unwanted children. I am for the adoption, not abortion, of these babies. Call them what you wish but they are babies that are in their most vulnerable situation. I don't care if the pregnancy is a mistake or not, the life taken cannot be brought back. Once the deed is done, it is irreversable. If the literature is correct, the number of abortions nationwide has risen to over 20 million. That is akin to genocide. If it were any particular ethnic group, it would be.
For when pressed as to which is the greatest commandment in the law, Jesus said, "Thou shalt love the Lord Thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the Greatest Commandment. And the second is like unto it. Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." And God gave to Moses the Ten Commandments. In these was one which stated, " Thou shalt not kill."
To go against any of God's Commandments is a sin. I have said all I care to say on this matter. The rest is in your lap, like it or not. You have been educated to the law of God and if you choose to break it, the weight of it shall be on your heart and soul. God have mercy on you.

“Mr. Frownie Face as Xmas Tree”

Since: Aug 07

Somewhere in the Northeast

#24 Oct 7, 2007
John wrote:
sickpoo, what is the defination of murder? Is it not; killing without the need for self defense? Or maybe you think that murder is in the commission of a crime. What I was getting at when I said what I said was that the womb is not a battle-ground. There are no mine fields there. No combatants. No evil doers. Just humans that are in a weak and vulnerable possition. If you don't like my way of saying what I said that is ok because it hurts as much as a commercial on tv, none. But the damage this is doing to the America of tomorrow is beyond scope. We will never know how much damage is done because the damage has already done it's damage. No amount of quoting people to show how smart or how "stupid" we seem will change that.
Why the name calling Mr christian love thy neighbor/enemies, etc? I am not sick. I feel just fine. Or do your christian doctrines only apply to those you agree with? LOL!

This is all just your personal opinion and assumptions. If you can not know how much damage there is, it COULD be because there is NO DAMAGE! DUH!
John wrote:
Abortion is wrong, Period. If this is allowed to continue, then what is next? Euthanasia? Even in that way of thinking it is not logical. Why not use these "fetuses" as organ donors? Or is that beyond your comprehension? Does that not agree with your way of thinking?
Your opinion mixed with a little fear mongering drama. Fetuses do not have organs.
John wrote:
Then....Why not do away with all that disagree with you? That would be logical, wouldn't it? Then you'd have no opposition. Everything you'd say would be ok.
Grow up John. If you are so smart why make such ans asinine statement??
John wrote:
But God does not work like that. God gives us the choice to do good or do evil. If we choose evil, then evil is done. Be it legal or not, it is evil and killing is evil. And even if you don't agree with the concept of God, is not evil in your dictionary? It is in mine. And abortion is evil.
More of your own personal opinion. Evil has nothing to do with god or abortion.

“Mr. Frownie Face as Xmas Tree”

Since: Aug 07

Somewhere in the Northeast

#25 Oct 7, 2007
John wrote:
More to the point, it is murder. Plain and simple. No matter how you cut it, crushing a developing child's head and sucking it out with a wet vac is inhuman.
People have given the unborn child the name of fetus to make it less human. It does not make it un-human.. I will pray for you because you need it. And I will pray for those unborn who will never see the light of day because of some legislators decision. I pray for those legislators, too. We all need that prayer. Most of all me and the ones who see abortion as an evil act and can do nothing about it buy cry and ask, "why"? "Why"? "WHY"?
If you have a child be greatful. We were never able to concieve a child. Our adopted son was that God-send we had prayed for for so long and we are greatful beyond words. And I will stand for adoption instead of abortion until I die.
Fetus is the proper medical term for a fetus.

There is no god and no one else is obligated to live by your personal opinion or religion.

Did yu ever consider that is was god's will that you not have children and that by adopting you went against god will? Maybe god wants these fetuses in "heaven" instead of born so god created abortion to get them there?

Why is it that folks like you always know what gods will is as long as it is something you WANT or AGREE WITH???

The bible does not mention abortion and does not consider a fetus to be alive. Why don't you know that? Don't bother talking to yourself about me. You need to "pray" for forgiveness for taking "gods words" out of context to support your own anti-choice opinions.

Sorry for your difficulties but again, no woman can be forced to incubate a fetus for an infertile couple. There are plenty of adoptable children in the world right now that have no homes. If a adoptive family does not have a child, it is their own doing.

“Mr. Frownie Face as Xmas Tree”

Since: Aug 07

Somewhere in the Northeast

#26 Oct 7, 2007
John wrote:
If a woman's health was the only issue, I would not have a stand on abortion. But the reality is that abortion has gone from aiding the doctor to save the woman's life to helping the woman to "cull" children. In other times, the terms of people not wanted changed to make the distruction of these people easier for the population to absorb. This is happening in the struggle for these unwanted children. I am for the adoption, not abortion, of these babies. Call them what you wish but they are babies that are in their most vulnerable situation. I don't care if the pregnancy is a mistake or not, the life taken cannot be brought back. Once the deed is done, it is irreversable. If the literature is correct, the number of abortions nationwide has risen to over 20 million. That is akin to genocide. If it were any particular ethnic group, it would be.
For when pressed as to which is the greatest commandment in the law, Jesus said, "Thou shalt love the Lord Thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the Greatest Commandment. And the second is like unto it. Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." And God gave to Moses the Ten Commandments. In these was one which stated, " Thou shalt not kill."
To go against any of God's Commandments is a sin. I have said all I care to say on this matter. The rest is in your lap, like it or not. You have been educated to the law of God and if you choose to break it, the weight of it shall be on your heart and soul. God have mercy on you.
You have the right to your opinion, as do I. No one can be forced to make decisions based on your opinion.

Again, the bible does not consider a fetus to be alive. The bible is not against abortion and does not mention abortion except in Numbers 5 where it is used by priests as punishment for adultery.

Please stop trying to make this a religious/god issue. It isn't. Even if it were, others do not have to live by YOUR religion. You just use religion to try to scare women in to complying with YOUR wishes.

“Mr. Frownie Face as Xmas Tree”

Since: Aug 07

Somewhere in the Northeast

#27 Oct 7, 2007
Chewy wrote:
It is apparent that most of you do not understand what is going on in this situation. Abortion clinics under their current standard are perfectly safe, the state if Missouri is trying to put standards in place that are usually reserved for *Surgical* facilities, which abortion clinics are not. The new standards they are trying to enforce are not only completely unnecessary to ensure safety, but are far more expensive than those individual facilities can afford, and will most likely close them down. That is exactly what the state of Missouri is trying to do, close down a legal facility by trying to force completely unnecessary modifications to their facility, in the name of 'safety'.
Apparently the law-makers in Missouri don't like womens rights to safe abortions, so they are trying to get it shut down in their state without regards to their Federally protected rights. Planned Parenthood is the great scapegoat for the conservative pro-lifers who's agenda is to control the reproductive rights of women. These law-makers don't know the great things Planned Parenthood does for their community and only wants their people controlled.
And isn't it funny that the current abortion safety standards in place in all other 49 states is fine, but in Missouri it suddenly isn't good enough. Especially when the 'safety' precautions that the Missouri government wants enforced will in no way make abortions any safer. If it would make abortions safer, you'd have no objections from anyone. But that's not the case here. It is rediculious that some of you people can't see that
The governor of MO is an arrogant, evil, moralistic piece of s**t.

Fortunately this law was found to be unconstitutional. Bush didn't get to ALL of the federal judges.

Apparently the govt of Missouri is still bound by the the constitution of the united states and the protections it affords its citizens, in spite of their delusions to the contrary.

Why is it that those who claim to be for "smaller government" want the government to rule a woman's uterus and will even pass illegal "laws" in a dishonest attempt to do so???
John

United States

#28 Oct 7, 2007
John wrote
John wrote
John wrote
Is there anything in the Ten Commandments you want to write? I will await an answer, chikepu
John

United States

#29 Oct 7, 2007
If the world gave in to your ideas, there would be no world. And the Bible is my guidbook. Not the platform of the party of death.
If a person needed to die, say for killing indiscriminately, then would you be willing to pull the chair out from under them? I am mixed as to that and don't think I could because I am not bound by governments, I am bound by my God and my faith in Him. He passed down the Ten Commandments, not me, and He was sure to put down that you do not kill the unborn. As a matter of fact, if you kill a woman who is pregnant you are responsible for 2 deaths. Why change the rules to allow for the killing of just the unwanted? God made no such rule. It is plain and simple, "Thou shalt not kill."
If you have a problem with that, take it up with Moses, he brought down the tablets, not me. I just read them and abide by them. You could read and abide by them also. As long as you confess your sins and ask forgiveness, you will be forgiven. I ask each night for I get mad and forget that I, too, am human and can make mistakes. But I will not and have not taken a life, whether it is in the first trimester or the end of life, itself. I pray I will never have to. I am sorry if I have offended you but my position will not change, I am for life. Babies or fetuses, it makes no difference to me. They are both capable of life and altering history. One does not know when taking that life if they are dooming mankind to something more sinister than could be imagined. I don't want to find out.
You can do as you wish. It is on your head.

“Proud to be a Geek”

Since: Jun 07

Denver, Co

#30 Oct 7, 2007
John wrote:
John wrote
John wrote
John wrote
Is there anything in the Ten Commandments you want to write? I will await an answer, chikepu
Well, the Ten Commandments are a code of behavior. An philosophy on how people should act and treat eachother. They have nothing to do with abortion, nor do they have any relivence to our current conversation. And if you are thinking the "Thou shall not kill" commandment, give me a break. Christians are the biggest group of murderers in human history. Your own people can't even follow your own commandments, why should any outsider take it seriously?
steph

Aurora, IL

#31 Oct 7, 2007
Chewy wrote:
<quoted text>
Well, the Ten Commandments are a code of behavior. An philosophy on how people should act and treat eachother. They have nothing to do with abortion, nor do they have any relivence to our current conversation. And if you are thinking the "Thou shall not kill" commandment, give me a break. Christians are the biggest group of murderers in human history. Your own people can't even follow your own commandments, why should any outsider take it seriously?
and according to a stat on a PRO-LIFE website, 68% of women getting abortions claimed to be christians. if they can't get their own people to abide by their 10 commandments, i doubt there is much hope of getting the rest of us to agree with them. myself, i prefer the constitution to be the law of the land.

also, john, you seem confused about the definition of murder so let me clear that up for you.

murder n. the unlawful killing of one human being by another.

murder is a legal term, since abortion is legal, by definition it can not be called murder.

“Mr. Frownie Face as Xmas Tree”

Since: Aug 07

Somewhere in the Northeast

#32 Oct 7, 2007
John wrote:
If the world gave in to your ideas, there would be no world. And the Bible is my guidbook. Not the platform of the party of death.
If a person needed to die, say for killing indiscriminately, then would you be willing to pull the chair out from under them? I am mixed as to that and don't think I could because I am not bound by governments, I am bound by my God and my faith in Him. He passed down the Ten Commandments, not me, and He was sure to put down that you do not kill the unborn. As a matter of fact, if you kill a woman who is pregnant you are responsible for 2 deaths. Why change the rules to allow for the killing of just the unwanted? God made no such rule. It is plain and simple, "Thou shalt not kill."
If you have a problem with that, take it up with Moses, he brought down the tablets, not me. I just read them and abide by them. You could read and abide by them also. As long as you confess your sins and ask forgiveness, you will be forgiven. I ask each night for I get mad and forget that I, too, am human and can make mistakes. But I will not and have not taken a life, whether it is in the first trimester or the end of life, itself. I pray I will never have to. I am sorry if I have offended you but my position will not change, I am for life. Babies or fetuses, it makes no difference to me. They are both capable of life and altering history. One does not know when taking that life if they are dooming mankind to something more sinister than could be imagined. I don't want to find out.
You can do as you wish. It is on your head.
We are ALL for life, John.

Since: Mar 07

Location hidden

#33 Oct 8, 2007
chickypoo wrote:
<quoted text>
We are ALL for life, John.
No, we all clearly cannot be. That is an incorrect statement. You are only for the "life" that is born and outside the womb. You purposely deny the life that is in the womb. You are NOT for all life. Just some.

“Mr. Frownie Face as Xmas Tree”

Since: Aug 07

Somewhere in the Northeast

#34 Oct 8, 2007
vball wrote:
<quoted text>No, we all clearly cannot be. That is an incorrect statement. You are only for the "life" that is born and outside the womb. You purposely deny the life that is in the womb. You are NOT for all life. Just some.
We are ALL for Life, V-ball. Loved, wanted, cherished, nurtured LIFE!

Sorry you get your self-esteem from pretending you are superior and the only TRUE protector of "life".

Get over your ignorant self. This isn't about YOU!

Since: Mar 07

Location hidden

#35 Oct 9, 2007
chickypoo wrote:
<quoted text>
We are ALL for Life, V-ball. Loved, wanted, cherished, nurtured LIFE!
Sorry you get your self-esteem from pretending you are superior and the only TRUE protector of "life".
Get over your ignorant self. This isn't about YOU!
WOW!! How you got "self-esteem" out of this one I'll never know! You are "out there" woman.
John

United States

#36 Oct 10, 2007
I have not pretended for almost 60 years now. I stand by my faith. The only reason there is the name of "fetus" is the fact that most people would balk at the killing of "people". I don't get off on anyone's suffering least of all the little ones. When you get to be my age and have raised the number of children my wife and I have, you may get a clue. Until then, live in that place you call wonderland.
We could not have our own children so we can not accept the fact that anyone would not want their own. If you cannot accept my point of view, then you have the problem. My victory is in the eyes of the grown people now with their own children and we helped each and every one of them. We still get letters, pictures of new arrivals, and Christmas cards. How many aborted fetuses have done that for you? Like I said, I pray for your soul, it needs to grow. God forgive those who do pain and needless death to the innocent. I am finding it harder to do so each day.
John

United States

#37 Oct 10, 2007
Since the last time I wrote, I checked the definition of the word "fetus". It seems the definition is:
The unborn young of viviparous vertebrate; in humans, the unborn young from the end of the eighth week to the moment of birth as distinguished from the earlier embryo.[Lat. offspring.]
I do not doubt the sanitary conditions of any clinic or hospital. They are all where countless viruses and other micro-biotics become immune to most of the treatment that has for so long been adequate. I can personally specify at least 4 people that have died from staph that was contracted at a hospital. One was my Aunt. She died from an ear infection. Another was my wife's Aunt who died from staph contracted while undergoing a "safe" procedure. The two others were young children who came to the hospital with broken bones that needed surgury sustained in auto accidents. All these deaths were the fault of unsanitary conditions that noone would have even thought of at the time. So I am for a safe environment for clinics and hospitals as well as doctor, dentist and other medical offices but the truth is that sometimes all that is needed is a simple case of staph to kill an otherwise healthy person. In my Aunts case, she was in the hospital to have a tooth extracted and no thought was given to the fact that she might die from an ear infection as a result. But she did.
It was noone's fault and everyone's fault. The use of anti-biotics to treat everything is wrong. Only the most serious problems should be treated by these drugs as they give the surviving biotics an immunity to them and they, in turn, give rise to resistant strains to the very drugs we use to treat them. Restraint should be used when using any anti-biotic and more emphasis should be applied to good old clean rooms. Places where there is no place for these super bugs to grow and eventually kill unsuspecting people.
As far as abortion goes, I will go no further in explaining my objection to it as everyone has their own ideas or objections to this issue. My objection is simple, God does not wish it and says so in many places in the Bible. Though it does not specify abortion per se, it does deal with killing, and the use of force against the weak. For "the Lord shall reward the doer of evil according to his wickedness." 2 Samuel 3:39

“Mr. Frownie Face as Xmas Tree”

Since: Aug 07

Somewhere in the Northeast

#38 Oct 11, 2007
John wrote:
Since the last time I wrote, I checked the definition of the word "fetus". It seems the definition is:
The unborn young of viviparous vertebrate; in humans, the unborn young from the end of the eighth week to the moment of birth as distinguished from the earlier embryo.[Lat. offspring.]

As far as abortion goes, I will go no further in explaining my objection to it as everyone has their own ideas or objections to this issue. My objection is simple, God does not wish it and says so in many places in the Bible. Though it does not specify abortion per se, it does deal with killing, and the use of force against the weak. For "the Lord shall reward the doer of evil according to his wickedness." 2 Samuel 3:39
John, I have no doubt that you are a wonderful, caring and patient man and a credit to your family. However, the bible does not condemn abortion. The bible also does not condemn violence against the weak. It does not consider a fetus to be alive to murder. Abortions were available in biblical times and all thru out history and it was never condemned in the bible. The only place it is mentioned is in Numbers 5, where priests describe using it as a punishment for adultery. THAT is the truth about the extent of what the bible say on abortion.

"And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain." (Deuteronomy 2:34)

"And it came to pass, that at midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle. And Pharaoh rose up in the night, he, and all his servants, and all the Egyptians; and there was a great cry in Egypt; for there was not a house where there was not one dead." (Exodus 12:29-30)

AND last but NOT least:

"Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up." (Hosea 13:16)

Exodus 21:22
22"If men strive and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no misfortune follow, he shall be surely punished according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.
23And if any misfortune follow, then thou shalt give life for life,
24eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
25burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.

Secondly, no one has ever shown that the bible is anything more than a fairy story with moral lessons on how to live AND plenty of fear for those that might want to leave the cult. MANY people through out the world do not believe in the christian god or the christian bible OR any other god or "holy book".

So, while YOU may feel that abortion is evil, that does not mean that it is REALLY evil.

AND if you are such a devout follower of christ, you should not be judging women the choice or doctors that perform what women asked them to perform.

Bottom line is that if you do not approve of abortion, don't have one (which of course you won't because you are a man and will never face this issue) and teach your family those same values.

The rest of us choose to do the same with our families, based on OUR moral values.
John

United States

#39 Oct 11, 2007
First let me say that I do not feel any animosity toward anyone for their role in this. I have only one soul and am responsible for it. If I stood by and said nothing, I would be the people standing or passing on the other side while the person was in need of help. So it goes with these unborn. I have to try to help them. Being unable to have my own now hurts and the thought of people destroying helpless children, no matter how you describe it, hurts me. I love each of earth's inhabitants. It is their actions I dislike, like abortion. There has to be a better way. When I gave the definition, I did so for one reason, to educate. The Nazi party told the people that they were getting a shower or being de-loused but they were marching them to death. I cannot help but make the connection to this. If I could, I would take all these children but as I am disabled, I can barely support my wife and myself. I am not mad at the way things turned out for me, I was blessed. I helped almost thirty children and they each gave me a treasure that is beyond all the gold on earth. I just talked to one this morning and she still calles me Uncle John, a name that has been mine since I was fresh out of the Marines in '70. So please keep an open mind and try to see what I do. A soul is a terrible thing to waste, a marvelous thing to nurture. I send my love to you along with my prayers. If you only see it as a fairy tale my prayers will mean nothing to you but I shall send them just the same. The Bible is no fairy tale to me, it is real and, in my opinion, the words of God.
I thank you for your time to answer me and offer me your comments even though we sometimes have not exactly acted civil toward each other. I hope that will change as I shall try to respect your beliefs. I hope you will offer me the same.
Miracles happen for no reason we can imagine. I wish a miracle for you through my prayers.

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