Question

Russell Springs, KY

#265 Apr 7, 2013
Bombardier wrote:
<quoted text>
As far as the grand jury makeup. Maybe, but not necessarily. Here's why. Even if these women agree it was self defense, they want him punished for contributing to the situation that led up to the use of force anyway. But from a legal stand point, if you agree it was self defense, what can you charge them with? Stupidity isn't a crime. Personally, I think he was one witness away from being charged with reckless homicide.
Last sentence is so spot on! But for this witness who alleges she sees a weapon, Mr. Brown would more than likely be under an indictment. And your opening is great as well! Here's a passage from HL Mencken from a writing about the death penalty and I feel it is apropos in this case. At least how I feel.
"The same thing precisely takes place on a larger scale when there is a crime which destroys a whole community’s sense of security. Every law-abiding citizen feels menaced and frustrated until the criminals have been struck down."
We have just come to expect that someone will be punished for taking a life that it seems ostensibly unjust when one walks free from that.
Weighing In

Ft Mitchell, KY

#266 Apr 7, 2013
Wondering wrote:
<quoted text>
I asked earlier if anyone tried to help the injured man. If the hospital statements are reliable, a delay is a definite factor in the outcome.
Are security officers trained to render aid? Or would that have been a conflict of interest?
As to name calling, that is painful to read. Rather than affecting the "callee," it's more apt to reflect poorly on the person they support.
I was told that EMS was onsite, was held back for a minimum of 10 minutes and only were able to tend to Brandon once a EMS supervisor arrived on insisted on over riding the directive to stand back. I was also told the delay in care was 'documented' via Imel tweet.
Bombardier

Bowling Green, KY

#267 Apr 7, 2013
Weighing In wrote:
<quoted text>
I was told that EMS was onsite, was held back for a minimum of 10 minutes and only were able to tend to Brandon once a EMS supervisor arrived on insisted on over riding the directive to stand back. I was also told the delay in care was 'documented' via Imel tweet.
I heard several things, but its just people saying what they heard from someone who heard it from somewhere else. I think this question needs to be answered by an official, but who?
Weighing In

Ft Mitchell, KY

#268 Apr 7, 2013
Bombardier wrote:
<quoted text>
I heard several things, but its just people saying what they heard from someone who heard it from somewhere else. I think this question needs to be answered by an official, but who?
Agreed. If any truth to it, could very be the reason for some questionable handling/reports. And on the other hand one could argue that IF there is a good ol boy system, than surely Brown would have been a sacrificial lamb.
Christian

Bowling Green, KY

#269 Apr 7, 2013
Hold on a Sec wrote:
<quoted text>
Thanks for the information. So many people are basing their opinions on emotion rather than facts because it's easier to do that than become informed.
Ok well then I have a question? For ppl arrested on drug related charges how's does the grand jury just indict those ppl?
Ann

Alliance, OH

#270 Apr 7, 2013
Bombardier wrote:
From watching Topix, listening to conversations at work, getting family members opinions, and whatnot, I can say this. Majority of the women are overwhelmingly of the opinion that Brown should be in jail. Majority of the men just the opposite. This could be a topic for a psychology paper. Anyway, that's my experience.
Hi Bombardier, so far I have agreed with everything you have said. So I may be in the minority but I am a woman and I do not think TB should be in jail based on the facts presented, I think it was self defense and would have certainly voted that way. I also think what if my husband had been in Mr. Brown's place? He would have been killed because he would not have had a gun on his person. I know very little about gun rules but the only think I know is, if someone points a gun at you, they plan on using it. So everything about this case speaks self defense to me. I am truly sorry for both families.
Hold on a Sec

Bowling Green, KY

#271 Apr 7, 2013
Weighing In wrote:
<quoted text>
I was told that EMS was onsite, was held back for a minimum of 10 minutes and only were able to tend to Brandon once a EMS supervisor arrived on insisted on over riding the directive to stand back. I was also told the delay in care was 'documented' via Imel tweet.
Whose directive to stand back? TB's? If that's the case, then shame on the EMT's. They have no obligation to listen to an off duty bailiff. Also too, the supervisor USUALLY always arrives prior to the EMT's. I've seen it several times myself. He runs prior to the ambulance with lights and sirens as well. It's that EMT 4-door sedan that goes in front of the ambulance. I do know EMT will not go in or render aid if THEY still perceive or ARE TOLD there is still a threat or they could be harmed.

And if you are going on a tweet from Joe Imel, he also reported, then recanted, about a man with a gun in Covington Woods Park. Shows that things do get put out that are incorrect or or not reported correctly. There was a lot going on at once during that time as well as the days after. Ever think maybe that this is one of those instances as well. To be so gullible to believe everything that is reported in the media and take it as absolute fact is naive.
Bombardier

Bowling Green, KY

#272 Apr 7, 2013
Ann wrote:
<quoted text> Hi Bombardier, so far I have agreed with everything you have said. So I may be in the minority but I am a woman and I do not think TB should be in jail based on the facts presented, I think it was self defense and would have certainly voted that way. I also think what if my husband had been in Mr. Brown's place? He would have been killed because he would not have had a gun on his person. I know very little about gun rules but the only think I know is, if someone points a gun at you, they plan on using it. So everything about this case speaks self defense to me. I am truly sorry for both families.
Hi Ann, yes there are women and men on both sides. I was relating my experience with the majority in my social circles and family. I think most of them in the end would have followed the law and instructions and voted for self defense, if they believe it was. Not all, but most.
Bombardier

Bowling Green, KY

#273 Apr 7, 2013
I don't think TB held anybody back. The cops took charge and I'm sure it wasn't ten minutes before they got there.. Probably some twit on twitter trying to start something. Its no secret the story is floating out there, why not just come out and tell what really happened and why?
Bombardier

Bowling Green, KY

#274 Apr 7, 2013
Christian wrote:
<quoted text>
Ok well then I have a question? For ppl arrested on drug related charges how's does the grand jury just indict those ppl?
On evidence presented.
Weighing In

Ft Mitchell, KY

#275 Apr 7, 2013
Hold on a Sec wrote:
<quoted text>
Whose directive to stand back? TB's? If that's the case, then shame on the EMT's. They have no obligation to listen to an off duty bailiff. Also too, the supervisor USUALLY always arrives prior to the EMT's. I've seen it several times myself. He runs prior to the ambulance with lights and sirens as well. It's that EMT 4-door sedan that goes in front of the ambulance. I do know EMT will not go in or render aid if THEY still perceive or ARE TOLD there is still a threat or they could be harmed.
And if you are going on a tweet from Joe Imel, he also reported, then recanted, about a man with a gun in Covington Woods Park. Shows that things do get put out that are incorrect or or not reported correctly. There was a lot going on at once during that time as well as the days after. Ever think maybe that this is one of those instances as well. To be so gullible to believe everything that is reported in the media and take it as absolute fact is naive.
Not so guiliable to believe everything, asking questions to put pieces together.
come on now

Bowling Green, KY

#276 Apr 8, 2013
Hold on a Sec wrote:
<quoted text>
Whose directive to stand back? TB's? If that's the case, then shame on the EMT's. They have no obligation to listen to an off duty bailiff.
That's rediculous. If some nut who has proven if you piss him off he will attack, and that same nut had a gun drawn and was telling -- an unarmed me at that -- to not render aid ... I wouldn't cross him. True, they don't have to listen to an "off duty bailiff," but if they might have designs on going home to see their kids that night.
come on now

Bowling Green, KY

#277 Apr 8, 2013
Grand Jury Foreman wrote:
This is to address you uniformed citizens of how the grand jury works in KY [Mr. Cohron] informed us of the enormous powers that we now possessed and a few of us asked questions.. I began research on the grand jury system in KY. I learned that we possessed enormous powers and that the commonwealth attorney as well as local law enforcement were there to assist us but that ulitmately we were in charge of ourselves and could dictate who testified before us. The commonwealth attorney could recommend cases and witnesses but it was soley up to the grand jury to decide who we wanted to testify before us and it was not law enforcement or the commonwealth attorney who decided this. The grand jury has almost no restrictions on their powers to investigate and subponea witnesses and other tools to assist our investigation.
You are correct. The Grand Jury has perhaps more power than any other group in the state. Unfortunately, the Grand Jury left gaping holes in the story (or, alternatively, they made an illogical decision).

Did the Grand Jury consider the FACT that Mr. Brown got out of his vehicle and went back to Mr. Bradshaw’s vehicle to confront him? How in the hell can that be twisted about to be self-defense? Perhaps there is a peculiar quirk in the law, but from what was written up in the newspaper, it seems to me that Mr. Brown didn't merely stand his ground, but he was actively advancing his ground. I realize that the Grand Jury doesn't have to tell us why they decided something; but seriously, in order to put this ordeal to rest, why not fill in the gaping holes in the story that leave the general public scratching their head.

And before you go there, I don't have a personal axe to grind -- I never met Mr. Bradshaw, and only once met Mr. Brown 15 years ago when I had a question about my utility bill, might have talked to him for 2 minutes. All I want to have is ANSWERS to the obvious questions regarding what went down that day.(1) Did these two guys know each other before that day?(2) What led to the two of them pulling into that parking lot on the bypass (road rage maybe?)?(3) Why would someone in fear for his life leave the relative security of his vehicle and walk 20 feet in the direction of the person who he believes to be a threat?(4) Why would it not be considered an assault when someone is trying to get out of his pickup truck and Mr. Brown shoved the truck door back closed on him (that's called entering someone else's space, not "standing your ground").(5) Why was Mr. Brown not charged with (a) assault for the door-shoving incident or (b) improper driving (the grand jury itself says both of those things occurred?(6) What happened to the VERY strong "rumor" that Mr. Brown was flashing his badge in a effort to make people thing he was a real police officer with police powers in the situation at hand?

My interpretation -- Mr. Brown was engaged in aggressive driving targeted at Mr. Bradshaw (undisputed fact) got out of his vehicle and advanced his position towards Mr. Bradshaw (undisputed fact), and then engaged Mr. Bradshaw in a PHYSICALLY aggressive way by shoving the truck door shut on him (undisputed fact). That is NOT self-defense. Rather, it is called, "You pissed me off and now I'm going to teach you a lesson" (commonly called a fit of rage).

Well, at least I now know that the next time someone gives me the one-finger salute while I'm driving down the bypass, I can cut him off in traffic, and if I feel like it, I can pull out my gun and blow him away, because, according the Grand Jury, once the other party does the slightest of things to piss me off, I have the right to be the aggressor.
Good Grief

Bowling Green, KY

#278 Apr 8, 2013
Come on now, all your questions have been answered on this thread. Try reading.
Good Grief

Bowling Green, KY

#279 Apr 8, 2013
By "your interpretation", you never acknowledge that Bradshaw did anything wrong. Especially the fact that he was first to pull a gun. You're quick to say the grand jury got it wrong. Yes, you do have an axe to grind. And you're an idiot if you want us to believe otherwise.
Bombardier

Bowling Green, KY

#280 Apr 8, 2013
@ComeOnNow...I'll try to answer your questions fairly. Anybody is welcome to challenge, lets just try to be civil.

1) No. They did not know each other. Commonwealth attorney, press conference, asked and answered.

2) Yes, road rage. Someone made a driving mistake, and it escalated from there into road rage.

3) Brown was not afraid for his life when he exited the vehicle, and never claimed to be.

4)Brown claims, and an eyewitness states, Bradshaw had a gun in hand when attempting to exit the vehicle. Brown responded the way he was trained ie using the door for protection. It was not an assault.

5a) Not an assault. See answer 4.

5b) A traffic ticket at best. Incident not witnessed by police. Issue Brown a ticket, issue Bradshaw estate a ticket. No, not good. Also, the grand jury was asked to consider reckless homicide or second degree murder charges, not reckless driving.

6) Investigation by KSP concluded the badge was brought out after the shooting. We don't know if the witness that talked to daily news subsequently talked to KSP or not. Statements to reporters aren't official. Brown acted like an off-duty policeman is suppose to act by displaying the badge after the fact so arriving police know is a "friendly" on the scene in plain clothes.

Both Brown and Bradshaw engaged engaged in aggressive driving (undisputed fact).

Both Brown and Bradshaw advanced at any given time, a game of one upsmanship (my opinion).

Bradshaw brandished a weapon as he was opening the door.(The story being told by Brown and eyewitness).

Brown responded to lethal force with lethal force. This is the justification for self-defense.

Until the gun came out, it was two alpha males having a pissing contest.(My opinion).

Hope this helps.
Weighing In

Bowling Green, KY

#281 Apr 8, 2013
come on now wrote:
<quoted text>
(1) Did these two guys know each other before that day?(2) What led to the two of them pulling into that parking lot on the bypass (road rage maybe?)?(3) Why would someone in fear for his life leave the relative security of his vehicle and walk 20 feet in the direction of the person who he believes to be a threat?(4) Why would it not be considered an assault when someone is trying to get out of his pickup truck and Mr. Brown shoved the truck door back closed on him (that's called entering someone else's space, not "standing your ground").(5) Why was Mr. Brown not charged with (a) assault for the door-shoving incident or (b) improper driving (the grand jury itself says both of those things occurred?(6) What happened to the VERY strong "rumor" that Mr. Brown was flashing his badge in a effort to make people thing he was a real police officer with police powers in the situation at hand?
These are not facts, these are only my understandings.

1. Cohron says no. I have heard from a reliable source that supposedly Brandon had talked to him about Brown. My definition of reliable source ... this man has no reason to lie, know him to be truthful and he has no vested interested in whether or not they knew one another. Because of this, I lean more yes then knew one another than not. This makes me ask ... why did Cohron say they didn't know one another. How is that beneficial to the case that was presented.

2. No doubt it was road rage and I believe strongly both were participants.

3. If I was the person ... no. I would be calling 911. Definitely would not pull into the parking lot that was next parking lot where the agressor had just pulled into. What is being said is he did so in order to back track. Possible? Yes. Probably, no.

4. I am completely perplexed that there were not at least some minimum charges.

5. He flashed his badge, so that observers and arrivers would know he wasn't a 'lunatic'. I think he had moment of clarity realizing what he did and what could have happened to him if he did not pull the badge.

Let's not forget Brown secured an attorney immediately. A criminal attorney right? Someone who knows the law and could provide coaching services to build up 'appearances'.
come on now wrote:
<quoted text>
My interpretation -- Mr. Brown was engaged in aggressive driving targeted at Mr. Bradshaw (undisputed fact) got out of his vehicle and advanced his position towards Mr. Bradshaw (undisputed fact), and then engaged Mr. Bradshaw in a PHYSICALLY aggressive way by shoving the truck door shut on him (undisputed fact). That is NOT self-defense.
Agreed. Although, I am willing to acknowledge it is likely Brandon was a participant in the agressive driving.

It was a pissing contest. Unfortunately, Brandon paid for his poor and illegal behavior with his life. Mr. Brown on the other hand walks away his is restitution being living with himself. Now knowing that Brandon was not in a position to shoot him, if he has any decency that can't be an easy thing to live with.
Weighing In

Bowling Green, KY

#282 Apr 8, 2013
Bombardier wrote:
Bradshaw brandished a weapon as he was opening the door.(The story being told by Brown and eyewitness).
Brown responded to lethal force with lethal force. This is the justification for self-defense.
Hi Bomb - love your bottom line, pissing contest. It's what I believe as well.

Curious to know ... what have you heard/believe about Brandon still being buckled in?
Weighing In

Bowling Green, KY

#283 Apr 8, 2013
Hold on a Sec wrote:
<quoted text>
Whose directive to stand back? TB's?
My assumption was that it was the law enforcement that was onsite that made the decision to withhold care under the guise of securing the scene, making it safe. Sounds reasonable, especially if you have Brown with a gun in hand.

But now I wonder if it actually happened. It could be key, not sure how one would find out.
Question

Russell Springs, KY

#284 Apr 8, 2013
It just crosses my mind sometimes that brown had the upper hand the entire time because Brandon still had his foot on the break and seat belt on from start to finish of his death. That is very bothersome that he didn't he even have time to put the truck in park nor unbuckle himself before being ostensibly executed.

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