LaForte Fan

Blue Ridge, GA

#81 Jul 22, 2013
This is the most interesting insult free exchange of ideas I have seen in a long time.

Since: Nov 12

Location hidden

#82 Jul 22, 2013
Joe Black wrote:
Aggie wrote: "When the men of Sodom came to Lot's home demanding the strangers be handed over so they may "know" them - just what do you think was going to happen?"
I don't know where your mind wonders, but that's pure speculation. No specific sin is given as to the reason for God's great wrath. Do not pass GO; do not collect $200.00.
And yet you have said nothing in regards to eating shellfish, touching pig, or planting two different crops in the same field, as well as wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread, which was specifically forbidden in the book of Leviticus. You know, the very same book many bible thumpers like to point out in concerns to, "Man shall not lay with another man?" Nor have you acknowledged the acceptable practice of fathers selling their daughters into slavery,...
(deleted for space)
... IF we are going by the assumption the sins of Sodom and Gomorrah involved homosexuality, keep in mind that rape (not to be confused with consensual sex) was rampant back then; men raping women, men raping men, and men raping animals indiscriminately. As a matter of fact, your sexuality wasn't based on who you slept. You could be heterosexual at heart but still rape men, and even animals for that matter. It is sometimes practiced still today among inmates in prisons or *hehm* lonely farmers - just not in epic proportions as it was back then. In ancient times these practices were happening so often that in some places it was customary to cut the cloth of your friends garment while they were sleeping as a gesture, which expressed: I could have taken advantage of your vulnerability last night, but I didn't because I respect you. You are my friend. Laugh all you want, but it is no joke.
Learn your history. The laws that were put in place by God were for men at that time - on a humanitarian level. People were brutal, bestial on an epic level during that time in history.
Moving on to the New Testament, which is centered on the Gospel of Jesus, we learn of Christ's teachings and the ultimate sacrifice he did to absolve us from our sins. Please point to where Jesus spoke ill of the gays. He ate with prostitutes, tax collectors, thieves and lepers. As a matter of fact, he hung around the most loathsome of people, yet loved them unconditionally. He said such things as, judge not, lest ye be judged, and doing onto others as you would have done unto you.....
Somehow Christ's teachings have been lost on some because there are people out there who tend to think the all mighty God needs help sifting through all the sinners (as if the great omnipresent cannot do it on his own)... as if they know more than God...
How arrogant.
As far as pure speculation, the men of Sodom demanded that the strangers be handed over so they could "know" them, the very next verses speak of Lot offering his daughters -who had "known" no man, in exchange for the strangers - that is a pretty explicit comparison of intent.

However, please note I was not interested in getting into your back and forth on the other issues raised, I simply did not care for your misrepresentation of the "sins" of Sodom and Gomorrah as mere lack of hospitality when the Bible clearly says otherwise- which I will repeat as "sin so grievous" and involving great depravity. I made no claim regarding homosexuality being the main cause of their judgment, though it certainly is implied that that was one aspect of the "depravity" for which they were judged, as well as the things you mentioned. The implication in the demands of the men of Sodom is clearly rape.

The laws of the Old Testament served many purposes, two of them included simply setting the Hebrews apart from other peoples and also to hopefully make the Hebrews eventually realize that the Law could not save them, as you said - all are sinners and none could keep the law completely, thus necessitating the need for a Savior to grant them Grace.

Since: Nov 12

Location hidden

#83 Jul 22, 2013
Joe Black wrote:
Adding on to my long winded post (above), THIS is why I think the sins of Sodom and Gomorrah was the sin of being inhospitable. In the book of Ezekiel it expands about the sins of Sodom and Gomorrah:
Now this was the sin of Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen.—Ezekiel 16:49-50
And Jesus spoke about it here:
If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that home or town. I tell you the truth, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town.--Matthew 10:14-15
Your pun, Aggie. ;-)
And I will repeat, I have already acknowledged that lack of hospitality (which was a grievous fault in Middle Eastern society) was PART of the long list of their sins, but by no means the largest, i.e. "did detestable things before me"

"If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words" - they are rejecting the message of the Son of God, of course they will be judged - as will we all.

“Vainglourious Basterd”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#84 Jul 23, 2013
Hey I like the new guy, troll or not he knows his argument.

We need people like that here for sure. Besides, as many gays as there are here I have never once seen anyone openly taunt them in public.
Joe Black

Sacramento, CA

#85 Jul 23, 2013
You do bring up a good debate nonetheless, Aggie. My argument has always stood that the sins of Sodom and Gomorrah was NOT the sin of homosexuality, but rather hospitality and pride. Rape was only secondary to what was going on. For 2,000 years, until the last century before Christ, Israel understood the lesson of Sodom to be one of pride and hospitality.

We've already touched upon it being common in those times to use violent and brutal rape as a way to humiliate and establish power over another, not unlike in some prison situations today. Yet, in no culture has more than a small minority (7-10%) of the population been truly homosexual. Therefore it can be assumed most of the violators were heterosexual.

Moving along..

Yãdhà has two meanings: "to know" and "engage in coitus." Yãdhà is used in the Old Testament 943 times. Only ten times is it used to mean sexual intercourse, and all of those are referencing heterosexual sex. "Shãkhabh" in the Old Testament is used to mean homosexual acts.

It is important to note, Lot was a resident alien in Sodom. When Lot invited strangers into his home, the townspeople approached Lot and demanded "Bring them out unto us, that we may know them (yãdhà)." Judging from the biblical references we've just discussed, it seems the townspeople were asking to get to know the credentials and intentions of strangers in their city.

The absolute sacredness of a guest was a principle well known to Lot. Lot also understood the way crowds give in to hostile acts against outsiders (see Judges 19:1- 21:25 for a similar tale of hostility to strangers.). Hospitality in these cultures meant that if a person asked you for it, you were completely compelled to protect your visitor, even if that meant losing your property, family or life. Although, today it may seem far off and radical, this is the way it worked for centuries. It isn't strange if we think of it as a survival strategy: you never know who will need hospitality, specifically in hard lands or times. What Lot did was act as his culture required him to... So, he protected his guests and refused to hand them over to the crowd. When the crowd insisted, he offered his two daughters as a desperate diversion to a hostile situation.

Indeed, Lot may very well have offered his two virgin daughters to an unruly mob to be sexually assaulted. This additionally supports that the crowd had heterosexual interests - in fact offering young women for sexual hospitality was commonplace. Alas, God spared Lot and his daughters from the destruction of Sodom. Genesis 19:33-36 goes on to say how the daughters got Lot drunk and committed incest with him. Would God destroy two cities for homosexuality and save these people so they would go right out and commit incest? Interestingly enough, none of these actions are described as particularly sinful. What does that tell you?
Food for Thought

Torrance, CA

#86 Jul 23, 2013
Lhttp://youtu.be/XxgxfPwFZe4
LaForte Fan

Blue Ridge, GA

#87 Jul 23, 2013
Joe Black wrote:
You do bring up a good debate nonetheless, Aggie. My argument has always stood that the sins of Sodom and Gomorrah was NOT the sin of homosexuality, but rather hospitality and pride. Rape was only secondary to what was going on. For 2,000 years, until the last century before Christ, Israel understood the lesson of Sodom to be one of pride and hospitality.
We've already touched upon it being common in those times to use violent and brutal rape as a way to humiliate and establish power over another, not unlike in some prison situations today. Yet, in no culture has more than a small minority (7-10%) of the population been truly homosexual. Therefore it can be assumed most of the violators were heterosexual.
Moving along..
Yãdhà has two meanings: "to know" and "engage in coitus." Yãdhà is used in the Old Testament 943 times. Only ten times is it used to mean sexual intercourse, and all of those are referencing heterosexual sex. "Shãkhabh" in the Old Testament is used to mean homosexual acts.
It is important to note, Lot was a resident alien in Sodom. When Lot invited strangers into his home, the townspeople approached Lot and demanded "Bring them out unto us, that we may know them (yãdhà)." Judging from the biblical references we've just discussed, it seems the townspeople were asking to get to know the credentials and intentions of strangers in their city.
The absolute sacredness of a guest was a principle well known to Lot. Lot also understood the way crowds give in to hostile acts against outsiders (see Judges 19:1- 21:25 for a similar tale of hostility to strangers.). Hospitality in these cultures meant that if a person asked you for it, you were completely compelled to protect your visitor, even if that meant losing your property, family or life. Although, today it may seem far off and radical, this is the way it worked for centuries. It isn't strange if we think of it as a survival strategy: you never know who will need hospitality, specifically in hard lands or times. What Lot did was act as his culture required him to... So, he protected his guests and refused to hand them over to the crowd. When the crowd insisted, he offered his two daughters as a desperate diversion to a hostile situation.
Indeed, Lot may very well have offered his two virgin daughters to an unruly mob to be sexually assaulted. This additionally supports that the crowd had heterosexual interests - in fact offering young women for sexual hospitality was commonplace. Alas, God spared Lot and his daughters from the destruction of Sodom. Genesis 19:33-36 goes on to say how the daughters got Lot drunk and committed incest with him. Would God destroy two cities for homosexuality and save these people so they would go right out and commit incest? Interestingly enough, none of these actions are described as particularly sinful. What does that tell you?
I have no idea whose interpretation is more valid. Since history is always subject to interpretation does it really matter? Don't both arguments offer some feeble proof that civilization has marginally improved its manners in some areas at least. Either or both of you would be welcome in my home or neighborhood because you are interesting and have character. I will protect you both (and Joe Black's right to be gay) to the death. I don't even care about the real guy or troll part anymore.
Bears Way

Hollywood, FL

#88 Jul 23, 2013
LaForte Fan, is correct in his thinking. There are many interesting opinions on this board. Too bad there couldn't be a meet and greet at a Pub with an open mike . Those who would to introduce theirselves could and those who wish to remain a secret could
Also.

I understand the need for keeping your true identity off this forum but we all are missing an opportunity

Since: Jul 13

Blue Ridge, GA

#89 Jul 23, 2013
Looking for a girl to mess with:) I'm 19 and a girl:) I live in blueridge :)
Bears Way

Hollywood, FL

#90 Jul 23, 2013
Rebelmuddygirl wrote:
Looking for a girl to mess with:) I'm 19 and a girl:) I live in blueridge :)
Sorry, too young....have to be 21 to pass thru door.
LaForte Fan

Blue Ridge, GA

#91 Jul 23, 2013
Bears Way wrote:
<quoted text>
Sorry, too young....have to be 21 to pass thru door.
Bears Way

Did you see the Hiawassee Parade Video of Eli and Dash in the Zac trot subject? They are just babies and were so good and unspookable.
Bears Way

Hollywood, FL

#92 Jul 23, 2013
LaForte Fan wrote:
<quoted text>
Bears Way
Did you see the Hiawassee Parade Video of Eli and Dash in the Zac trot subject? They are just babies and were so good and unspookable.
. They are wonderful, a good horse lives to do his job and please their owner.

WTN

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#93 Jul 24, 2013
Bears Way wrote:
<quoted text>. They are wonderful, a good horse lives to do his job and please their owner.
Getting a bestiality vibe from you ...
LaForte Fan

Blue Ridge, GA

#94 Jul 24, 2013
WTN wrote:
<quoted text>
Getting a bestiality vibe from you ...
Silly.
Jason

Blue Ridge, GA

#95 Jul 24, 2013
Joe Black wrote:
You do bring up a good debate nonetheless, Aggie. My argument has always stood that the sins of Sodom and Gomorrah was NOT the sin of homosexuality, but rather hospitality and pride. Rape was only secondary to what was going on. For 2,000 years, until the last century before Christ, Israel understood the lesson of Sodom to be one of pride and hospitality.
We've already touched upon it being common in those times to use violent and brutal rape as a way to humiliate and establish power over another, not unlike in some prison situations today. Yet, in no culture has more than a small minority (7-10%) of the population been truly homosexual. Therefore it can be assumed most of the violators were heterosexual.
Moving along..
Yãdhà has two meanings: "to know" and "engage in coitus." Yãdhà is used in the Old Testament 943 times. Only ten times is it used to mean sexual intercourse, and all of those are referencing heterosexual sex. "Shãkhabh" in the Old Testament is used to mean homosexual acts.
It is important to note, Lot was a resident alien in Sodom. When Lot invited strangers into his home, the townspeople approached Lot and demanded "Bring them out unto us, that we may know them (yãdhà)." Judging from the biblical references we've just discussed, it seems the townspeople were asking to get to know the credentials and intentions of strangers in their city.
The absolute sacredness of a guest was a principle well known to Lot. Lot also understood the way crowds give in to hostile acts against outsiders (see Judges 19:1- 21:25 for a similar tale of hostility to strangers.). Hospitality in these cultures meant that if a person asked you for it, you were completely compelled to protect your visitor, even if that meant losing your property, family or life. Although, today it may seem far off and radical, this is the way it worked for centuries. It isn't strange if we think of it as a survival strategy: you never know who will need hospitality, specifically in hard lands or times. What Lot did was act as his culture required him to... So, he protected his guests and refused to hand them over to the crowd. When the crowd insisted, he offered his two daughters as a desperate diversion to a hostile situation.
Indeed, Lot may very well have offered his two virgin daughters to an unruly mob to be sexually assaulted. This additionally supports that the crowd had heterosexual interests - in fact offering young women for sexual hospitality was commonplace. Alas, God spared Lot and his daughters from the destruction of Sodom. Genesis 19:33-36 goes on to say how the daughters got Lot drunk and committed incest with him. Would God destroy two cities for homosexuality and save these people so they would go right out and commit incest? Interestingly enough, none of these actions are described as particularly sinful. What does that tell you?
You can try to play dumb or twist God word to try to fit your own perverted lifestyle but it wont work wages of sin is death.
oh brother

Blue Ridge, GA

#96 Jul 24, 2013
Joe a word of advise...dont move here! I for one am getting the hell out! This area is a den of backward inbreads who have been cut off from the real world for far to long. Backstabbing, judging and twofaced, confused people who think they know what life is like. Fear runs rampant and they are the most dishonest people i have ever met in my life. This is a nice place to visit but do not move here. You have been warned
Zoro

Blue Ridge, GA

#97 Jul 24, 2013
oh brother wrote:
Joe a word of advise...dont move here! I for one am getting the hell out! This area is a den of backward inbreads who have been cut off from the real world for far to long. Backstabbing, judging and twofaced, confused people who think they know what life is like. Fear runs rampant and they are the most dishonest people i have ever met in my life. This is a nice place to visit but do not move here. You have been warned
Good bye.
Tatas

Blue Ridge, GA

#98 Jul 24, 2013
Jason wrote:
<quoted text>You can try to play dumb or twist God word to try to fit your own perverted lifestyle but it wont work wages of sin is death.
Please reference with scriptures.
Joe Black

Sacramento, CA

#99 Jul 24, 2013
<quoted text>You can try to play dumb or twist God word to try to fit your own perverted lifestyle but it wont work wages of sin is death.

Jason: Please point to where I twisted God's words. If anything I've quoted scriptures. Dumb is, is what dumb does. Too bad their isn't a death penalty for being ignorant.

LaForte Fan: It really doesn't matter whose interpretation is more valid; just food for thought. I like you. You seem like a well rounded individual (not in the literal sense - lol). Quite actually, there's a few good people in here - Bless you all!

Oh - and for the rest of the homophobes, you can sigh a breath of relief. I'm not moving to Blue Ridge. Doug's mother has taken a turn for the worse, and we really need to be there for her, because "queers" are kind of like that. We forgive our loved ones for their ignorant comments bred from fear, and we take care of them when they no longer can take care of themselves. She lives in San Diego where there is surely a God; sandy beaches, ideal temperatures year round and some tasty waves - DuDe!

Take care all.
Bears Way

Hollywood, FL

#100 Jul 24, 2013
Joe Black, peace to you and yours wherever you land. It is Blue Ridge's loss.

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