GE might close plant in Bloomington in 2009

[sss]

That isn't correct hoosier. A loss is not an earnings less than projected. A loss is a loss. Most manufacturing plants are Limited liability Corporations in reality that are subsidiaries of the parent corporation. Tax purposes of course. This means when they say they took a loss, it is a real loss, not a budgetary shortfall. When earnings don't meet projected earnings that is exactly what you hear. When all is said and done it costs more after wages, material, facility costs, taxes, transportation, warehousing, sales, service, etc than the product is sold for. Keep in mind that any manufacturer must sell their product to Home Depot, Lowes, Best Buy, etc at a price that the retailer considers good for them to make a profit on. All of those variables are different depending on the location of the manufacturing facility and the point of sale. Wages are cheaper overseas but transportation costs are higher. Taxes are another one of the big differences in overseas production versus US production.

[fromlawrencecoun ty]

I used to work at this plant. Was one of the 1400 laid off in 2000.

As for job loss or gain. There is one thing I rarely see spoken of. And that's the QUALITY of the new jobs our government is bringing in.

It does a wage earner no good at all. When he loses a $20 an hour job. And has to replace it with a $10 an hour job. Cause that's all that is left. Sure he might still be employed (and that looks great on the unemployment numbers postings!). But he now has to support his family on half of what he used to make. And more often than not. His "new" job has less, or none at all, health care insurance.

You can quote all the numbers you want. But until you show me that the average, blue collar, worker in the US is gaining something. Instead of losing economic ground. Then I say we're in trouble.

[hoosier]

sss quote: "That isn't correct hoosier. A loss is not an earnings less than projected. A loss is a loss. "
sss- I completely agree with you - but GE (and other companies) don't use the same dictionary definitions as we. The 45MIL "loss" was not a 45 MIL "loss" - it was a 45MIL disappointment that, presumably, in another location would not have been a disappointment.
Why would a company stay open another year and a half if it truly loses 45 million/yr? Stay open another year and a half and lose another 70 million (in addition to the millions they're going to be paying out to their employees in their separation package)? No business logic there.

[worked-all-my-li fe-for-GE]

I too have been a "lifer" for Ge, having worked for them since 1979. I worked at the GE Bloomington, In plant from 1994 till 2004. We worked like slave labor, honestly. I too, was called to the "all employee" meeting in the back where the Mabe Mexico decision was announced. I agree that GE manipulates the numbers and calls a less than favorable PROFIT-a loss.(They still make a profit, just not as much) I am saddened for all the lives and families these decisions affect. It does not look good for our children's future, or our country. We all need good paying jobs that can support our loved ones, and congress should also realize that the better Americans are paid, the better the TAXES that are paid! Wake up people and smell the coffee, Americans are the hardest working, most productive people on the face of the earth, and this is how we are rewarded!!! Good Grief!!!

[Thomas]

Operating at a loss, huh? Is it because the product(s) produced there aren't selling? Or is it a situation we're becoming all too familiar with: labor costs are driving this dinosaur to extinction? At the same time, it's a given that those in the upper eschelon of the company are making way, way too much money as a percentage of the rank and file. Add a sinfully generous package of benefits and other perks to support their lavish 'needs' and, voila, we have the perfect example of corporate greed in the global era. I believe salary, staff, and other cuts and layoffs mustd come, first, at the top before any talk of closing a plant takes place. It's no secret that corporate 'movers and shakers' are paid salaries and benefits than are far greater than what they're worth. And we tolerate it, don't we? If labor costs are the driving force here, transferring production to developing nations without paying a living wage that will bring those places into the 21st century is akin to using slave labor to serve the needs of the rich. Enough, already.

[LOSER]

WHAT EVERYONE DOESNT SEE IS WHAT REALLY GOES ON OUT THERE THE COMPANY HAS BEEN TRYING TO MAKE BPO LOOK BAD FOR ALONG TIME THEY GET IN BAD PARTS THEY SEND OUT PRODUCTS THEY KNOW ARE BAD THEN BLAME THE WORKERS THE WORKERS TRIED TO DO GOOD JOBS THEIR BUT THE SYSTEM WAS SETUP TO FELL.

[The Big Picture]

I think that you all are missing the big picture. If most of the large company's move out of the country and take the higher paying jobs, who's going to buy their product that costs more than you would make in a week? If we are not buying their products, then who will? Not the people that are making then because they don't make enough money.
There is a few ways to keep the jobs here in the states. We just have to elect the right people in office that will stand up for the middle and lower class people. 67% of the people in the ages of 18 to 65 are middle class people here in the states and if they would get out and vote it would be a start.
1. Pass a law that states that if a company moves any part of its operation outside of the U.S. then they have to pay the people in the new jobs the same wages and benefits that were paid before the move.
2. They have to pay an import fee for loss of jobs to the pass employees.
3. Pass a law that the company has to follow the E.P.A. rules of the U.S. in the country that there in, not just the rules of that country. Which most are way behind the U.S.
If the companies don't follow these rules or laws then they can not sale or ship any product to or from the U.S. that will support or help that company at that location.
I am not saying that these workers are making to much money that the companies have to move out. Look at Jeff Immelt-CEO of G.E. who made more than $4 million in just his salary last year and that is not counting his perks.
I make good money for where I live, but I work in a factor that has no air in the summer and to much heat in the winter. That is why I fight for more money and benefits is because of the working area i'm in.
Please feel free to correct anything in this message or statement that might be off alittle.
More to follow later.

[The Big Picture]

hoosier wrote:

sss quote: "That isn't correct hoosier. A loss is not an earnings less than projected. A loss is a loss. "
sss- I completely agree with you - but GE (and other companies) don't use the same dictionary definitions as we. The 45MIL "loss" was not a 45 MIL "loss" - it was a 45MIL disappointment that, presumably, in another location would not have been a disappointment.
Why would a company stay open another year and a half if it truly loses 45 million/yr? Stay open another year and a half and lose another 70 million (in addition to the millions they're going to be paying out to their employees in their separation package)? No business logic there.

I work at this location and was one of the workers that told a few people in management that the door's we where making were bad ( putting a new insulation product into the panels that screwed down to the door). We told them for weeks that the insulation was sweating in the boxes that it was shipped in to us. They told us that it would dry out in time before it was sold to the customer. The insulation will sweat in the door due to the temperature change as it is opened and closed. We have been working two hours of (manditory) overtime everyday for three years do to a $35 million dollar lawsuit. We have made over 500,000 sets of doors in that time and are still making around 1,000 sets a week now for the same problem. This is one of the companies money counts as a loss towards us. If you count $104.00 dollars (thats labor and materials) per set plus shipping, its around $173,000,000. a year for three years. Is that counted into our lost money? I think so. But you don't here the company saying anything about this. Even the people there won't come out and say it for fear of losing their job or being picked on by the management until they quit.

If you wan't more info. respond to this.

[Detonador7]

When it comes to simple physical products the US shouldn't even be trying to compete. We simply cannot pay the lower wages that other countries can. The US should instead focus on thse things that make us unique, like our innovation ability, sciences, and medical research and advancement.

In other words, we should be researching and designing the high tech stuff and then selling that to other countries to actually produce it. We should only focus on producing what others cannot.

Of course, this implies that Americans understand that educating their children and driving them toward science, medicine, and other high tech fields is the way to ensure a decent future for their kids. I don't think we do, however, judging by all of the foreign doctors, scientists, and high tech folks I see coming into the country. The shortage is right in front of you. The change is inevitable. You can manage to the change for your kids' sake, or let them be a victim to it.

[Detonador7]

The Big Picture wrote:

I think that you all are missing the big picture. If most of the large company's move out of the country and take the higher paying jobs, who's going to buy their product that costs more than you would make in a week?

1 BB Chinese and 1 BB Indians who are poised to have larger numbers of people than in the US enter a middle class that will be able to afford them.

[Detonador7]

Also keep in mind that as our wages and the value of the dollar drop we will become more attractive to foreing investment. For example, BMW is building a new plant in the US. It will buy its parts more locally (US, Canada, Mex) and it will employ more Americans. We have lived high off the world's hog for many decades...now that wealth is beginning to transfer to other parts of the world. It may be painful, but the wealth will redistribute itself by the sheer nature of capitalism. When China and India become too expensive, the wealth will move somehwere else and so on until we are all competing with each other at very similar levels.

[INDIANA]

AS LONG AS THE BIG CEOS CAN SIT DOWN WITH THE PRESDENT AND SUCK ASSES WITH EACH OTHER AND MAKE BIG CHEAP ASS LABOR DEALS AND MONEY MONEY, THEYLL TAKE EVERYTHING WE HAVE TO china and mexico they suck, america needs to wake up to congresses bs ways their for these forgein idiots, it makes them more money, CHEAP LABOR SUCKS IS FREE TRADE EASY FOR FOREIGN IDIOTS AND UNFAIR TRADE TO AMERICANS ,,WE ARE AMERICA BUT THE IDIOTS IN CONGRESS IS FOREIGN AND BULL SHIT GET RID OF THEM DUMB ASS CONGRESS MEN AND GET RID OF CONGRESS ALL TOGATHER THEIR THE CAUSE OF US LOSING GOOD PAYING JOBS THEM BASTARDS GET RICH THEY DONT GIVE A RATS ASS ABOUT AMERICAN, HELL WITH THEM,AS LONG AS THYE KEEP KISSING THE CHINA AND MEXICAN ASSES THEY'LL KEEP OIL AND GAS PRICES HIGH WAKE UP AMERICA,,

[AGREE]

I agree its hurting the usa,and they can get away with it, , wheres the rights and laws of the american people at, seems to me we don't have none, its not fair these jerks can get away with whta their doing to the usa,

[Matthew]

Nothing will change until people start making it economically unfeasible for these companies to operate. Mitch the man bitch has done more to hurt Hoosiers in four years than most realize. He is a true FASCIST, one who believes corporations can merge with the state. I just wish I would see him out in public somewhere so I could punch him in his c*cksucker. I'll take the misdemeanor assualt charge.

[Matthew]

Agree, I used to live in the Spartanburg, Greenville, Boiling Springs area. Your economies have not suffered nearly like ours actually. I'm considering moving back that way. People have been brainwashed to accept that unions are bad, the gov't is good, corporations are good, anyone opposing them are bad socialists. Funny really. I wont work for a corporation ever again. I would rather sell dime bags to kids.

[Matthew]

Detenador- the problem is people with high tech degrees are being replaced by foreign workers too. No foreign contractors should be allowed to do ANY jobs that an American can do. Trust me, we have replaced all out IT jobs with Pakistani's and Indians. Not because they are better, because they are cheaper!!

[Buck Johnson]

Detonador7, Matthew has a point and I will expand on it. When you said that we should focus on "innovation ability, sciences, and medical research and advancement." aka white collar and thinking jobs, they are being outsourced and INSOURCED also. Back in 98 and 99 I also was for (at the time) the idea of making america the R&D and "thinking worker" capital of the world, where everybody would be doing the paperwork and shuffling of the paperwork for the rest of the world, it didn't work out that way. With the advent of greater bandwidth and better software platforms (remember the Dot.com era), companies can outsource alot of their office work to other parts of the world (India, Poland, China etc.) for less pay. There was controversy 5 months ago where (you have to search youtube to find the clip) a convention of Human Resource lawyers where being advised on how to circumvent the laws saying you must find an american first before looking for a worker overseas. The clip got out and after people saw it the Lawyers that hosted the function, said they didn't do anything or advise anyone to do anything Illegal (thats the key ILLEGAL). It was wrong because they were bending the spirit of the law.

Just follow the horror stories of whole IT and engineering dept. being told to train their replacements that are getting 50% or less the salary they where getting. You see there are alot of engineers and IT and other professions workers being churned out in the US, and in good quality. Whats happening is that they don't want to deal with paying for an American worker or an american attitude (which means, I need health benefits and I'm not a contract worker). They get the Pakistanis and Indians and whomever on those H1b visas to come work here in the US and they are beholden to the company for a number of years because of the laws regarding hiring an employee and getting them a green card (it amounts to being indentured). They can't complain about anything because they can get fired and sent packing home.

It's much cheaper to get a MS in electrical engineering from India to work for your company than it is for an American worker. Because if you had a MS in Electrical Engineering and where an American, you would be wanting at minimum 65 to 75 thousand to start at a job. But they can outsource and have the work done in India by the same degreed worker/workers for maybe 20,000 USD a year. People used to complain about sweatshops overseas and in the US of workers working in deplorable situations. Now we have the same thing but for white collar workers. Remember, the tenent of the corporation motto is to care about the stakeholders and the shareholders above all. Not the worker or country or community (unless they are in one of the groups above).

When the blue collar workers where seeing their jobs leave and not be replaced with a job of equal or greater value, the white collar workers snickered and laughed and didn't care. Now with white collar jobs and kids getting their college degrees working at jobs they didn't need to go to college for (low pay) not able to find work and/or being replaced by foreign workers, whose snickering and laughing now.