teacher evaluations
First Prev
of 3
Next Last
UH OK

Glendale, AZ

#43 Sep 8, 2013
Alice wrote:
<quoted text> Again, I ask this question: When your doctor advises you to eat a healthier diet and you choose not to do that, who is accountable for that choice and the results?
Well, in an isolated incident, of course it would the responsibility of the patient.

But wait, let's further....uh.....examine your analogy.

If a MAJORITY of a doctor's patient's were becoming more ill or dying, eventually the state medical board would investigate for reasons. The DOCTOR would be held responsible for his/her results.

I suppose a possible explanation would be that the majority of the doctor's patients were just dumb....stupid....as you are implying regarding NM students.
Alice

Denver, CO

#44 Sep 8, 2013
A Hunter wrote:
<quoted text>
Ok, you lost me there. What, exactly, IS a teacher's work if not to teach? Enlighten me.
Do not misinterpret my meaning. The best teachers are able to pique a student's interest, and to motivate them to want to learn about something. Of course it is a teacher's job to create the best learning environment possible in his or her classroom. It is also to manage student behavior and provide systems to help students succeed. But people who assume it is possible to do this with ALL students ALL the time clearly have no experience working with groups of children.

Teachers have always been evaluated on the aforementioned elements. What is new is to include test scores in that evaluation. So the next logical question is what tests? Who creates them? How often will they be given? Are we talking about only one test score which is the state standardized test? We think student test scores in reading, for instance, can be the tell-all factor when evaluating an English teacher, but what happens in this evaluation system based on test scores when it comes to evaluating the P.E. teacher or the shop teacher?

Using test scores to evaluate teachers presumes that the classroom is teacher-centered. Education is not teacher-centered; it is student-centered. Or it should be. Lots of room for tweaking teacher evaluation systems, and test scores may well be one small part (emphasis on small). But state depts of ed and school district supts find it easier to rely on test scores rather than more frequent observations of classrooms and monitoring of teaching. In the end, there is no substitute for the collaboration that test score graphs and charts circumvent.
A Hunter

Glendale, AZ

#45 Sep 8, 2013
Alice wrote:
<quoted text>
Do not misinterpret my meaning. The best teachers are able to pique a student's interest, and to motivate them to want to learn about something. Of course it is a teacher's job to create the best learning environment possible in his or her classroom. It is also to manage student behavior and provide systems to help students succeed. But people who assume it is possible to do this with ALL students ALL the time clearly have no experience working with groups of children.
Teachers have always been evaluated on the aforementioned elements. What is new is to include test scores in that evaluation. So the next logical question is what tests? Who creates them? How often will they be given? Are we talking about only one test score which is the state standardized test? We think student test scores in reading, for instance, can be the tell-all factor when evaluating an English teacher, but what happens in this evaluation system based on test scores when it comes to evaluating the P.E. teacher or the shop teacher?
Using test scores to evaluate teachers presumes that the classroom is teacher-centered. Education is not teacher-centered; it is student-centered. Or it should be. Lots of room for tweaking teacher evaluation systems, and test scores may well be one small part (emphasis on small). But state depts of ed and school district supts find it easier to rely on test scores rather than more frequent observations of classrooms and monitoring of teaching. In the end, there is no substitute for the collaboration that test score graphs and charts circumvent.
Thank you for that thoughtful and informative reply.

So........considering all this, what makes NM continue to be ranked near the bottom, when including all other states? What are other states doing that we aren't? Can we learn from other states that have improved?
Alice

Denver, CO

#46 Sep 8, 2013
UH OK wrote:
<quoted text>
Well, in an isolated incident, of course it would the responsibility of the patient.
But wait, let's further....uh.....examine your analogy.
If a MAJORITY of a doctor's patient's were becoming more ill or dying, eventually the state medical board would investigate for reasons. The DOCTOR would be held responsible for his/her results.
I suppose a possible explanation would be that the majority of the doctor's patients were just dumb....stupid....as you are implying regarding NM students.
Of course morbidity rates may indicate something about a doctor's performance, particularly a surgeon or physician who practices in a hospital. Just as test scores may indicate something about the performance of a teacher in a classroom. The key words here are "may" and "indicate." New teacher eval systems do not want to look at the many factors that affect how and what a child learns in a given day. Factors such as poverty, learning disabilities, behavioral problems, lack of support at home, etc. have a huge impact on a child's ability to focus in a classroom regardless of how motivating a teacher might be.
You inferred that I regard NM students as dumb or stupid. I did not imply that. Everyone CAN learn. Many do, with little encouragement from the teacher, but others need far more support than a teacher can provide in a class of 30+ kids in 50 minutes a day. That doesn't mean the kids are dumb. It means the system does not provide enough support to teachers and students. We seem to want to provide public ed on the cheap. Over the past decade, more and more has been asked of teachers while providing fewer resources with which to adequately perform. Does your doctor have to bring medical supplies from home?(Just a minor example of inadequate resources provided to teachers.)
The danger of relying on standardized test scores to tell us anything truly enlightening about how people learn is a pipe dream. Since quality is so difficult to define (in many arenas) we have become a society that substitutes quantity instead, and test scores fit into that paradigm quite nicely. If we fool ourselves into believing test scores are the primary goal and/or the ultimate arbiter of quality in learning, we will miss the opportunity to bring genuine improvement and reform to our classrooms.

Like doctors, teachers want ALL their charges to be well. People, no matter their age or circumstances, need to be active participants in their own wellness and learning. We need to provide resources to them, particularly to children and their families, so they CAN participate fully.
Alice

Denver, CO

#47 Sep 8, 2013
To A. Hunter: I see you are from Phoenix--well, at least that's where your server is--I am more familiar with ed policy in AZ as it has unfolded in the years since standards came onto the scene (circa 1998) than I am about what the evolution has been in NM. And it would be presumptuous of me to say I knew enough about the cultural and political climate of NM to answer your question intelligently. But I can say that I have seen and administered the standardized tests of both states. AZ's test was reasonable. The results were not used to keep students from graduating high school, and those students who performed above a certain level received college tuition assistance to state schools.

Several years back NM also had what I would consider a more reasonable test as well. It had to be passed in all areas before a student could graduate high school and there was no incentive (other than personal motivation or pride) to score at a higher level. Both this test and AIMS in AZ were a small booklet and took about two days to administer. Today the NM state test is about 150 pages and take close to two weeks to administer. High school students have fewer chances to take the test, and regardless of how well they do in their classes, and in spite of having passed all the requirements and earned all their credits, if they do not pass the state test, they will not receive a high school diploma.

The AZ schools in which I taught were varied in demographics--inner-city, suburban, barrio, and reservations schools. Smart kids in all; students who struggled with learning disabilities in all. If I had to cite a primary factor in the success of a student, it would be the environment at home. It isn't a deal breaker, but it sure makes a difference in how ready a kid is to focus in school. In NM I only saw one demographic, and I am reluctant to make a sweeping conclusion from that limited experience, but suffice to say, lack of resources is key.

BTW, the tests I described are high school and middle schools ones. I never taught elementary school; however, to the best of my knowledge, it has only been the last few years that these tests have expanded into lower levels. I can't imagine the anxiety of 1st-5th grade students who must not only take these tests, but are pressured to reach certain levels or feel as though they have failed. Music, art, p.e., etc. have all given way to test prep sessions, even at the youngest grades. This is so wrong.

We allowed people who do not work with children and have no understanding about the development of children to reduce learning to standardized tests. One size fits all. With pacing guides that must be followed whether the kids are ready to move on to the next concept or not. Why is NM lower than AZ? Not by much, but only the demographics of states in comparison can begin to tell the story.

One thing I know for sure. The business model that has taken over is not working. There's no quick fix here and data alone is not the whole story. Pretending it is will only prolong this disaster.
A Hunter

Glendale, AZ

#48 Sep 8, 2013
Thank you!

Thank you for providing enlightenment where misunderstanding prevails.

Thank you for your obvious passion. One can only hope you are not a lone voice in your profession.

And not to be trite.......thank you for your intelligent grammar and punctuation. Those are so often glaringly absent in many written communications from teachers. That lack leaves such a poor impression on a public that is innately critical of teachers.
Alice

Denver, CO

#49 Sep 8, 2013
A Hunter wrote:
Thank you!
Thank you for providing enlightenment where misunderstanding prevails.
Thank you for your obvious passion. One can only hope you are not a lone voice in your profession.
And not to be trite.......thank you for your intelligent grammar and punctuation. Those are so often glaringly absent in many written communications from teachers. That lack leaves such a poor impression on a public that is innately critical of teachers.
You're quite welcome on all counts. I enjoy sharing information and viewpoints with others via forums like this one. I don't expect we will all agree, but everyone has something to bring to the table. I just wish they would do it without the vitriol. I'm a retired teacher, and I wish I could say I had the energy to still be in the classroom, but I just couldn't keep up with the increasing demands--200 8th graders everyday pretty well did me in during the last two years I taught. But I'm getting to be an old duffer anyway, so it's time for the next generation to take over. My hope is that parents and educators will push back at the privateers and politicians on ed policy--too many kids getting lost out there.

Since: Jul 11

Location hidden

#50 Sep 9, 2013
Alice wrote:
<quoted text>
Of course morbidity rates may indicate something about a doctor's performance, particularly a surgeon or physician who practices in a hospital. Just as test scores may indicate something about the performance of a teacher in a classroom. The key words here are "may" and "indicate." New teacher eval systems do not want to look at the many factors that affect how and what a child learns in a given day. Factors such as poverty, learning disabilities, behavioral problems, lack of support at home, etc. have a huge impact on a child's ability to focus in a classroom regardless of how motivating a teacher might be.
You inferred that I regard NM students as dumb or stupid. I did not imply that. Everyone CAN learn. Many do, with little encouragement from the teacher, but others need far more support than a teacher can provide in a class of 30+ kids in 50 minutes a day. That doesn't mean the kids are dumb. It means the system does not provide enough support to teachers and students. We seem to want to provide public ed on the cheap. Over the past decade, more and more has been asked of teachers while providing fewer resources with which to adequately perform. Does your doctor have to bring medical supplies from home?(Just a minor example of inadequate resources provided to teachers.)
The danger of relying on standardized test scores to tell us anything truly enlightening about how people learn is a pipe dream. Since quality is so difficult to define (in many arenas) we have become a society that substitutes quantity instead, and test scores fit into that paradigm quite nicely. If we fool ourselves into believing test scores are the primary goal and/or the ultimate arbiter of quality in learning, we will miss the opportunity to bring genuine improvement and reform to our classrooms.
Like doctors, teachers want ALL their charges to be well. People, no matter their age or circumstances, need to be active participants in their own wellness and learning. We need to provide resources to them, particularly to children and their families, so they CAN participate fully.
Your defense of your profession is admirable. Your comparison to the medical field is a bit erroneous. Medical schools typicaly select the top 10% of college graduates for entrance. The teaching profession typically gets the bottom quarter of students. The day I can sue a teacher for Mal-education will be the day pigs fly. But that is EXACTLY what I saw in CCSD over the past decade.
NEA Idiot Burnouts

United States

#51 Sep 9, 2013
Subutai wrote:
<quoted text>
Your defense of your profession is admirable. Your comparison to the medical field is a bit erroneous. Medical schools typicaly select the top 10% of college graduates for entrance. The teaching profession typically gets the bottom quarter of students. The day I can sue a teacher for Mal-education will be the day pigs fly. But that is EXACTLY what I saw in CCSD over the past decade.
Anyone student who has had Ewa Krackpot or any of her cabal of NEA burnouts could sue those teachers for giving them a bad education. If the people who successfully sued McDonalds for making them fatties and diabetics can win, students and their families can also sue teachers for giving them a bad education.
Too Funny

Albuquerque, NM

#52 Sep 16, 2013
I love the way some start spouting off that "their school, or "their district" is one of the top. Top of what? Are you comparing them the others around the state? What a joke.

Since: Jul 11

Location hidden

#53 Sep 17, 2013
Too Funny wrote:
I love the way some start spouting off that "their school, or "their district" is one of the top. Top of what? Are you comparing them the others around the state? What a joke.
It would be quite funny if it wasn't so sad. Yes a average school, or district in New Mexico, would be considered very poor in the 48 other states that have better education.

But I bet you compare yourself to your neighbor anyway, so the local comparison is valid.
Notsopatient

Albuquerque, NM

#54 Nov 4, 2013
When will heads begin to roll as a result of evaluations?
East Coast Buzzard

United States

#55 Nov 5, 2013
Recent studies suggest that a teacher accounts for only 20 percent of a child's ability/desire to learn. The other factors are home life, socio-economic status, community and social groups.

If the studies are valid, then consideration should be given to making student achievement only 20% of a teachers evaluation.

As a former teacher it was my experience that unless a student came to school every day wanting to learn and was willing to expend the effort, there were limits to what one could do.
father of three

Rio Rancho, NM

#56 Nov 5, 2013
DISAGREE wrote:
UGHHHHHHH "force a student to perform well on a standardized test" You are again missing the point! If a teacher is qualified to teach a subject and does so effectively, then the student will do well on the test. If the teacher is a dumbass, does not have the ability to teach all of her students, then the student will not do well, and the evaluation will be the judge. 50th out of 50!
You have obviously never dealt with kids. If they don't care about the test, they will not do well even if they could and regardless how good their teacher may be. And why should they? We turned our schools into testing factories and the only thing my kids do now is to prepare for the test, test for the test and then test and test again. And these test have nothing to do with helping them or the teachers to do better. They are only designed to bring more profits to the testing companies.
Sara Pailen

Farmington, NM

#57 Nov 6, 2013
I can count to potato !!!!!!!!!!
George Bush

Farmington, NM

#58 Nov 12, 2013
father of three wrote:
<quoted text>
You have obviously never dealt with kids. If they don't care about the test, they will not do well even if they could and regardless how good their teacher may be. And why should they? We turned our schools into testing factories and the only thing my kids do now is to prepare for the test, test for the test and then test and test again. And these test have nothing to do with helping them or the teachers to do better. They are only designed to bring more profits to the testing companies.
You caught me.

Tell me when this thread is updated:

Subscribe Now Add to my Tracker
First Prev
of 3
Next Last

Add your comments below

Characters left: 4000

Please note by submitting this form you acknowledge that you have read the Terms of Service and the comment you are posting is in compliance with such terms. Be polite. Inappropriate posts may be removed by the moderator. Send us your feedback.

Blanco Discussions

Title Updated Last By Comments
News Farmington bar loses liquor license (Nov '08) 11 hr neil cobb 98
Jim Bourke RC Groups Slander Bullying (Dec '08) 17 hr RC Group Sucks 44
News Suspects sought in robbery at Dollar General 21 hr gotadollar 1
News Woman pleads to murder for role in drunken fight (May '09) Tue RezWarrior 52
News Martinez prefers to stick to issues (Jun '10) Sep 25 Marc 6,935
Barack Obama COUNTDOWN Clock 1000 days left & c... (Apr '14) Sep 24 117 Days Remaining 635
Farmington Racism-Part One (Dec '11) Sep 20 Blah ha NAILED IT 150

Blanco Jobs

More from around the web

Personal Finance

Blanco Mortgages