Court Ordered AA; 'Alcoholics Anonymo...

Court Ordered AA; 'Alcoholics Anonymous and Oliver Cromwell'

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Bruce Deile

Bellingham, WA

#1 Sep 24, 2009
'ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS and OLIVER CROMWELL'
by Christopher Bruce Deile

Alcoholics Anonymous helped me a great deal, and much of it I agree with. However, it's very abusive. I quit alcohol and drugs July 18, 1985. Yet over the years AA members have caused me tremendous harm socially and economically. Thus I've been homeless 10 years due in lareg part to past involvement in AA.

AA teaches belief in a generic god since speaking of Jesus Christ is largely taboo. AA's "Big Book" teaches to avoid religious terminology when working with newcomers. Guided through the "12 Steps" with a sponsor (spiritual guidance counselor) a spiritual foundation is formed with no acknowledgement of Jesus Christ. Hence "God as you understand Him"; i.e., generic--no name. If you're specific, AA members might censor, ridicule, and ostracize you. And follow you to places of employment, using malicious gossip and slander behind your back to incite co-workers and management against you. Homelessness ensues, and you begin signing in to shelters, providing your name, social security #, and the name of your employer once work is found. The harmful cycle continues as (secret/anonymous) AA members often work in these ["non-profit"/govern ment] social service positions and use that information against you (another reason why motels requiring a credit card to rent a room make it much more difficult for homeless people to gain safe shelter). MORE>>>>
Bruce Deile

Bellingham, WA

#2 Sep 24, 2009
Eminent theologian Reinhold Niebuhr referred to the "moral ambiguity of all righteous people in history" (in 'The Decision to Use the Atomic Bomb and the Architecture of an American Myth'; Gar Alperovitz). So why within a program where love and tolerance of others is the code would people be segregated for moral reaasons? Although I celebrate my heterosexuality today (relatively speaking as loneliness and halitosis have been my constant companions for many a year now), those identifying themselves as gay attempting to desegregate AA by speaking openly in the regular meetings also risk persecution. Perceived as threatening AA's "primary purpose" ['12 Traditions for group survival'], no matter how carefully one relates their 'sexual orientation' to alcohol, relegation to "gay special interest" meetings has been the norm. Likewise, those speaking of AIDS in the gay special interest meetings may also be rejected (even though members in most any AA group may speak of a cancer diagnosis in relation to alcohol and receive support). Chuck M. quit AA when he was prevented from sharing of having AIDS in a gay meeting--(Tucson, AZ; 1992). No easy thing when members are taught repeatedly that those who quit attending meetings get drunk. Therefore HIV-positive members most likely accept furhter segregation [Ed N. and Damon G. began a meeting called 'Positively Sober'; Tucson; 1993]. Otherwise, not conforming risks persecution both wihtin the rooms of AA and in one's private life. MORE>>>>>
Bruce Deile

Bellingham, WA

#5 Sep 24, 2009
Notice how the site www.orange-papers.org is anonymous. Orange does not reveal their real name. That's very smart when criticizing an alleged cult. Whereas with myself, I'm known and have suffered the consequences of questioning AA. Again, I was involved in AA for well over 10 years.
Bruce Deile

Bellingham, WA

#6 Sep 25, 2009
(this was removed from yesterday--reposting)

AA is religion, but not Christianity...only the appearance of that when meetings are opened with 'The Serenity Prayer' and closed holding hands reciting 'The Lord's Prayer', etc. Since the Supreme Court ruled AA a religious program there should be no court ordered/forced attendance of Alcoholics Anonymous--"a voluntary program" of "attraction not promotion". Because court ordered AA has been ruled unconstitutional, that means it no longer qualifies. But as a means of getting around the ruling, it's offered as a choice--"AA or Siberia, it's your choice, we're not forcing you".

In countries with extreme punitive measures, people seldom drink and rive. Drunk driving requires stricter laws--not forced religion; be it a "spiritual program" teaching belief in and reliance upon a universal deity, or one with a specifc deity. Otherwise, court ordered AA is akin to oliver Cromwell as a Universalist (see #29 below). MORE>>>>
Bruce Deile

Bellingham, WA

#8 Sep 25, 2009
Forum moderators are sabotaging posts here. My last two posts (above) were on here yesterday when I posted article 'Alcoholics Anonymous and Oliver Cromwell' in full. But today they had to be reposted. Similarly, on Seattle forum, three of the posts were removed. Changing the meaning of what is written = libel.
Bruce Deile

Bellingham, WA

#9 Oct 7, 2009
Hey. My last paragraph was removed (again). Here it is [it follows paragraph ending with "Otherwise, court ordered AA is akin to Oliver Cromwell as a Universalist"]:

Alcoholics Anonymous is a secret society, hence "anonymity". Anyone might be an AA member--lawyers, judges, FBI, CIA, Blackwater, George W. Bush--even Sarah Palin...another reason to pray Palin does not become the next President. See www.orange-papers.org for a very thorough critique of AA. I disagree with Orange's emphasis on self-reliance as the solution to addiction, but see link #29 about Reinhold Niebuhr tying the Oxford Group (AA's origin--AA co-founders Bill W. and Dr. Bob were Oxford group members) to Hitler and Nazism in 'The Christian Century' magazine; 1936. Also, Google 'A Struggle Inside AA' for Newsweek article containing allegation of AA being a cult.
someone who cares

Anchorage, AK

#10 Nov 7, 2009
hey, i don't mean this to hurt your feelings but i notice in your posts that there are themes of persecution. i used to be very paranoid before someone told me and i got on Risperdal for it. i recognize in your statements the same kind of distorted thinking patterns that i used to have. my life is so much better now! i used to be so stressed out by these thought patterns and felt isolated because of them...
Bruce Deile

Baring, WA

#11 Nov 7, 2009
Yeah, and Harvey Milk was accused of the same thing before he was shot to death point blank by Dan White. I haven't seen the latest film on him though (starring Sean Penn as Harvey Milk). But saw the documentary of his murder many years ago (where they conveyed his being erroneously accused of having a persecution complex--he was being persecuted). But since you've replied after I just posted on Anchorage Daily News (referring to this particular link) I will assume you are like the rest from the ADN chat forums, using ad hominem to cause trouble (trolling). Like there, I stopped replying to comments. Will do same here. So do not engage in flaming, I will not respond.
I care also

Eagle River, AK

#12 Nov 7, 2009
someone who cares wrote:
hey, i don't mean this to hurt your feelings but i notice in your posts that there are themes of persecution. i used to be very paranoid before someone told me and i got on Risperdal for it. i recognize in your statements the same kind of distorted thinking patterns that i used to have. my life is so much better now! i used to be so stressed out by these thought patterns and felt isolated because of them...
My dad gave me 2 pieces of advice I will never forget and hope that I will use tot the best of my ability
1) when in a conversation and I am referring to myself and another person, I should always say the other persons name first instead of mine. Ex. instead of saying "me and harry went to the store today", use "harry and I went to the store today". My dad was trying to tell me that I might be a little too self centered.
2)When I am pointing my finger (index) at someone, take a quick look at how many fingers are pointed back at me. There you will see the real culprit
Norezen

Tonawanda, NY

#14 Dec 23, 2009
Bruce is right. AA is a secret organization with members in positions of power. If you have ever had a drink, once your social worker, lawyer, judge, employer finds out, you're screwed. Unless you attend AA meetings, they will go out of their way to make trouble for you.

I had similar experiences with AA. I drank while on probation. As an alternative to jail, I had to attend AA meetings. It was my own doing, and I don't allege persecution.

However, I, and the Supreme Court in New York agree that AA is a religious program. Its not for me. I begged the probation and treatment court to allow me to attend secular treatment (clinics, psychiatrists, counseling) but they absolutely refused. I assume (it is just that, an assumption) that it is due to the fact that people in the administration attended AA meetings, their friends in local government attended AA meetings, and the AA core membership was happy to facilitate all of the court's needs. Of course, in court, on the record, none of them will identify themselves. Their agenda remains secret.

Why do they do this? First and foremost, money. Where I live there simply wouldn't be enough attendees without the court-mandated to pay bills. They also mistreat people who don't think they need AA anymore. They will interfere with their social and professional lives to get the ex-member to come back. I never put any money in the basket, and I loved bringing my friend who used their bathrooms, drank all their coffee, and ate tons of their refreshments.
Secondly, most of those in AA who practice this underhanded method of maintaining membership are insecure in my mind. Many of their lives' revolve around AA meetings and ideology. They attend meetings daily, organize events, even in casual conversation they quote AA clichés. They need others to participate or it hurts their legitimacy. Even though, statistically, AA does nothing. The legitimacy of AA is merely a perception based on attendance numbers. Not actual results. Never say that in an AA meeting.

Anyways. Dissenters or those with ideas that are simply incompatible with AA ideology will be persecuted and mistreated when possible. I have never seen an AA member make any secret of that.
Bruce Deile

Baring, WA

#15 Dec 29, 2009
"Anyways. Dissenters or those with ideas that are simply incompatible with AA ideology will be persecuted and mistreated when possible. I have never seen an AA member make any secret of that."

The code of AA is love and tolerance of others. Etc. So the abuse must be done in secret, or through misapplying AA terminology (same as the bible can be used to harm others). A newspaper opinion article referred to declining attendance of(Christian) religion in England being directly due their not seperating church/state. AA is going the same way--combined with gov't it has become a coercive program antithetical to its origin. But again, there are aspects of AA that can be used to rationalize harming others...I think those elements were added as AA became guided more and more by the government.
Bruce Deile

Baring, WA

#16 Jan 2, 2010
http://goliath.ecnext.com/coms2/gi_0199-27293...

"The United States Supreme Court has let stand two completely separate decisions, both ruling AA "unequivocally religious", and thereby illegal for the applicable government usages. One of those decisions ruled AA "engages in religious activity and religious proselytization." The presence of proselytizing implies that AA is a religion by definition. That the method is an admitted spiritual formula indicates the methodology constitutes a religion...

The American Jewish Congress wrote a majestic friend of the court brief in Griffin v. Coughlin, June 11, 1996 before New York State's highest court, the Court of Appeals -- one of the decisions the U.S. Supreme Court let stand. The New York court further ruled AA "deeply religious" and "intensely religious." An attorney with the Christian Legal Society said that she completely empathizes....
Bruce Deile

Baring, WA

#17 Jan 2, 2010
Dostoyevsky's "The Grand Inquisitor" in his novel 'The Brothers Karamazov' relates, as does Eugene Zamiatin's 1920 totalitarian novel (both of which influenced '1984').
Concerned

Bellingham, WA

#18 Jan 3, 2010
Bruce Deile wrote:
'ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS and OLIVER CROMWELL'
by Christopher Bruce Deile
Alcoholics Anonymous helped me a great deal, and much of it I agree with. However, it's very abusive. I quit alcohol and drugs July 18, 1985. Yet over the years AA members have caused me tremendous harm socially and economically. Thus I've been homeless 10 years due in lareg part to past involvement in AA.
AA teaches belief in a generic god since speaking of Jesus Christ is largely taboo. AA's "Big Book" teaches to avoid religious terminology when working with newcomers. Guided through the "12 Steps" with a sponsor (spiritual guidance counselor) a spiritual foundation is formed with no acknowledgement of Jesus Christ. Hence "God as you understand Him"; i.e., generic--no name. If you're specific, AA members might censor, ridicule, and ostracize you. And follow you to places of employment, using malicious gossip and slander behind your back to incite co-workers and management against you. Homelessness ensues, and you begin signing in to shelters, providing your name, social security #, and the name of your employer once work is found. The harmful cycle continues as (secret/anonymous) AA members often work in these ["non-profit"/govern ment] social service positions and use that information against you (another reason why motels requiring a credit card to rent a room make it much more difficult for homeless people to gain safe shelter). MORE>>>>
R U just crazy or what AA help lean to your homelessness? how about that being your choice own up to it and stop blaming others for those things you choose!
Bruce Deile

Bellingham, WA

#19 Feb 6, 2010
Ha. AA co-founder Bill Wilson was non-self supporting (AA 7th Tradition). His wife Lois would have said as much. They were put up buy other AA members for months at a time (before they would wear out their welcome and have to move on to another AA members house). Until Bill W. began to receive regular royalties from 'Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions', etc. Later, Bill W. experimented with LSD as a possible cure for alcoholism. That and the B vitamins.
Bruce Deile

Bellingham, WA

#20 Feb 7, 2010
Regarding AA being religious....In AA's text ("Big Book"), 3rd Edition, on page 292 it is explained how Dr. Bob (AA co-founder) always emphasized the religious angle very strongly when working with others. On pages 216-217, Bill W.(AA co-founder), when asked what he credited with the change in people's lives in AA, pointed to a picture of Gethsemene on the wall and said "there it is".(Etc.)

Since: Dec 09

Location hidden

#21 Feb 9, 2010
If Bruce went to AA, then quit AA, any AA member will definitely hold that against him. Wherever he goes, to apply for a job, rent an apartment, date someone, etc, people who are still in AA will say bad things about him. Anything Bruce said in a meeting is fine to tell his potential employer, landlord, or friends.

Members of AA have no problem breaking confidentiality and they resent people who don't play with them.
Bruce Deile

Bellingham, WA

#22 Feb 9, 2010
Malicious gossip and slander is employed, not just things said in a meeting.

God speaking:

"Because with lies ye have made the heart of the righteous sad, whom I have not made sad..." Ezekial 13:22

So if the righteous are made to suffer due to lies spread against them, those attempting to righteousness (through spiritual growth), would most likely be vulnerable as well.

And compare that with AA's--our suffering was of our own making--contradicts, doesn't it?
Bruce Deile

Bellingham, WA

#23 Feb 9, 2010
I wrote earlier..."But since you've replied after I just posted on Anchorage Daily News (referring to this particular link) I will assume you are like the rest from the ADN chat forums, using ad hominem to cause trouble (trolling). Like there, I stopped replying to comments. Will do same here...."

Oops. I better start walking my talk.
test post

Harrison, AR

#24 Feb 11, 2010
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