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# Stop teaching erroneous creationism to kids

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#928 Oct 3, 2012
The_Box wrote:
<quoted text>
<quoted text>
We're not talking about how the Earth formed, we're talking about the Noachian flood.
<quoted text>
Oooh, arbitrary calculations. Tell me, how does one calculate the chances that a universe would have a constant being a certain value?
<quoted text>
Give me some falsification possibilities.
<quoted text>
What you really mean is, one must accept bogus supernatural explanations for obvious absurdities.
How did Noah fit 20 million animals on one boat?
OH WELL GOD CAN WARP SPACE SO THE BOAT'S INTERNAL SPACE IS A MILLION TIMES LARGER THAN THE BOAT'S EXTERNAL SIZE
1- Most Hebrew scholars believe the cubit to have been no less than 18 inches long [45.72 centimeters]. This means that the Ark would have been at least 450 feet long [137.16 meters], 75 feet wide [22.86 meters] and 45 feet high [13.716000000000001 meters].

The total available floor space on the Ark would have been over 100,000 square feet, which would be more floor space than in 20 standard-sized basketball courts.

Doctors Morris and Whitcomb in their classic book,The Genesis Flood state that no more than 35,000 individual animals needed to go on the ark. In his well documented book, NoahÂ’s Ark: A Feasibility Study, John Woodmorappe suggests that far fewer animals would have been transported upon the ark. By pointing out that the word Â“specieÂ” is not equivalent to the Â“created kindsÂ” of the Genesis account, Woodmorappe credibly demonstrates that as few as 2,000 animals may have been required on the ark. To pad this number for error, he continues his study by showing that the ark could easily accommodate 16,000 animals.

Hey Babe
#929 Oct 3, 2012
Pastor Matt E wrote:
<quoted text>
1- Most Hebrew scholars believe the cubit to have been no less than 18 inches long [45.72 centimeters]. This means that the Ark would have been at least 450 feet long [137.16 meters], 75 feet wide [22.86 meters] and 45 feet high [13.716000000000001 meters].
The total available floor space on the Ark would have been over 100,000 square feet, which would be more floor space than in 20 standard-sized basketball courts.
Doctors Morris and Whitcomb in their classic book,The Genesis Flood state that no more than 35,000 individual animals needed to go on the ark. In his well documented book, NoahÂ’s Ark: A Feasibility Study, John Woodmorappe suggests that far fewer animals would have been transported upon the ark. By pointing out that the word Â“specieÂ” is not equivalent to the Â“created kindsÂ” of the Genesis account, Woodmorappe credibly demonstrates that as few as 2,000 animals may have been required on the ark. To pad this number for error, he continues his study by showing that the ark could easily accommodate 16,000 animals.
That's right, Matt the Dingbat.. twist it to make it fit your little brain. Its easy to get a round peg in a square hole if you distort it enough. In your span of 3500 years we have had plenty of evolution. This is just laughable. Thank you for the belly laugh. I needed it, with all the serious religious malarky thats been going on lately.

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Hey Babe
#930 Oct 3, 2012
Pastor Matt E wrote:
<quoted text>
1- Most Hebrew scholars believe the cubit to have been no less than 18 inches long [45.72 centimeters]. This means that the Ark would have been at least 450 feet long [137.16 meters], 75 feet wide [22.86 meters] and 45 feet high [13.716000000000001 meters].
The total available floor space on the Ark would have been over 100,000 square feet, which would be more floor space than in 20 standard-sized basketball courts.
Doctors Morris and Whitcomb in their classic book,The Genesis Flood state that no more than 35,000 individual animals needed to go on the ark. In his well documented book, NoahÂ’s Ark: A Feasibility Study, John Woodmorappe suggests that far fewer animals would have been transported upon the ark. By pointing out that the word Â“specieÂ” is not equivalent to the Â“created kindsÂ” of the Genesis account, Woodmorappe credibly demonstrates that as few as 2,000 animals may have been required on the ark. To pad this number for error, he continues his study by showing that the ark could easily accommodate 16,000 animals.
Leave it to Dingbat Matt to give me a huge laugh. 8000 individual animals about 3500 years ago, evolved to the 8.7 million estimated to be on Earth today. Thats some pretty fast evolution for someone who doesn't think evolution created us. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/08/...

Thanks, Matt the Dingbat for the best laugh I have had in a while. I guess you can put a square peg in a round hole if you distort it enough.

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#931 Oct 3, 2012
vanished wrote:
<quoted text>Gen. 6;5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
What part of this sentence did you miss? It is what I have been saying all a long.
I doubt that you would have been morally obligated to stop it.
You hate the fact the anyone chooses to believe in God...not believing, you, no doubt, would have agreed with the mob! You are offended by God! You are even angry with Him.
Here's what it should say;

Gen 6:5- And god said "Opps, guess I'm not as omni as I thought. Those people turned out EXACTLY as I made them and everything is going EXACTLY as I planned. Damnations be upon them!"

6:6 "PS. I'll stop allowing children to die of cancer by making it a later stage life disease like I craftily did Alzheimer's."

6.7 And so it came to pass!

Mad at god? Well that's simply ridiculous. If you're finished discussing this then just say so, or stop responding. Sentences like your last one convey desperation in your position or a colossal misunderstanding of mine.

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capitalist pig
#932 Oct 3, 2012
Bill-y wrote:
<quoted text>
Thought about this one a bit. First,is the study of man and his developement a valid "science"? If they are then the standards and code of conduct would be necessary laws developed from taboos and other factors stemming directly from the survival trait. The survival of the fittest is not a valid statement here;it has already became the survival of the tribe. Perhaps the science that comes in here is sociology. The obedience of those taboos,laws,and statements is what became "morality". Morality is an individuals concession they give to the tribe. Patriotism is a moral issue when you get down to it.
Billy
good points

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#933 Oct 3, 2012
Shootist wrote:
<quoted text> LOL.. You and the Box both are missing the point..the point being the Middle East was the cradle of civilization was it not?....Unless they have changed things recently that would be IRAQ,(Mesopotamia) and surrounding areas.
The Mediterranean Sea was formed when the Ocean ran into it, between Europe and Africa was it not?
How about forgetting the fairly tales and strict word for word crap out of the Bible.
You're worse than the fanatical Christians when it comes to that:)
Noah, Jona, and a host of others in the Bible does not have anything to do with whether GOD exist or not.
In the final analysis, you have NOT proven GOD does not exist, and you never will until you DIE.:)
Why do you even care what people believe concerning God or religion, as long as they aren't acting like suicide bombers of radical Muslim sects?
I repeat, I'm not a church goer, but those that are have NO effect on me whatsoever...I could care less what they think or what Atheist think:)
If the point of posting the article you linked was to show a localized flood occurred in the region, thereby giving some basis for the biblical flood, then I misunderstood your intent.

I agree that proving the entire bible false would have zero bearing on the existence of a god. I also agree, for the millionth time, that science will likely never disprove or prove the existence of the supernatural.

Truth is, if all believers were more like you the argument would be little more than coke vs pepsi. You'd do your thing and I'd do mine.

But you aren't the face of belief, the intelligently vacuous Pastor Matt E is, and he will not be content until his bigoted, oppressive and patently uneducated drivel is forced down every throat. Or until his collection plate runneth over.

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capitalist pig
#934 Oct 3, 2012
Well there ya go wrote:
<quoted text>
This is a broken, blindly biased and ignorant argument. You should drop it from your quiver, or at a minimum only sing it to your choir.
Do you think your view might change if the Easter Bunny followers were making your laws based on the Bunny's whims? Blue laws say what I can and cannot do on certain days of the week. How about laws prohibiting your participation in govn't if you aren't a Bunny person?
And if the Bunny people were insisting your child be taught Bunny creation nonsense in their school. Lobbying your politicians to push Bunny's agenda.
If they encouraging unequal treatment of people in your society based on the Bunny's capricious moral view? In fact they legislate inequality. No problem?
I suppose you wouldn't mind if your govn't makes the Bunny peoples institutions tax exempt. Surely you wouldn't mind pitching in a little more to cover their share. Right?
You would be okay w/ your child mindlessly repeating everyday "one nation, under Bunny, indivisible"...(added in 1954)
The Bunny people restrict medical research that could likely help a member of your family. And they do so based on the Bunny's idea of morality. Still okay?
Put another way, would you "keep still" if sharia law was mandated and you were required to adhere to it's teachings? Or would you oppose that for which you have no belief in?
What world are you living in. Our laws from the begining have been based upon the Judeo-Christian Ethic. That is what the country was founded on. Surely you have read the federalist papers and the other writings of the founding fathers. John Adams wrote that our constitution was created for a moral and religious people and was inadequate to the governance of any other. Thomas Jefferson held chuch services in the rotunda of the capitol, had the marine corp band play at church services and took money from the public treasury to send missionaries to the Indians. The a supreme court judge somehow took a letter Jefferson wrote guaranteeing that religious freedom would not be imposed on and turned it into seperation of church and state. Even a casual reading of the letter is clear that was not Jeffersons intent. the intent of the founders was that there would be no national sanctioned religion. As a matter of fact states were left free to practice religious discrimination. That is how so many Baptists and Methodists ended up in WV, escaping the anglican church in VA. Now if I were to move to Iran and start trying to replace Islam with Christianity, that would be just as wrong as those who want to push the Baby Jesus off the courthouse lawn in this country.
I dont actually see you as someone who is hostile toward religion as long as no one tries to force it on you. What would be wrong with high school students debating evolution vs creationism. Isnt that what an education is supposed to do, promote critical thinking. Did you ever debate an issue where you had to take the opposing view? you can really learn a lot doing that.

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#935 Oct 3, 2012
Pastor Matt E wrote:
<quoted text>

Intelligent design is a scientific theory.
The_Box wrote:
<quoted text>

Give me some falsification possibilities.
I'd be interested in hearing this answer.... though as yet it's gone ignored.

Since: May 08

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#936 Oct 3, 2012
The_Box wrote:
<quoted text>
What's irrational about expecting people to provide evidence for an extraordinary claim?
<quoted text>
Accepting something without evidence, or *despite* evidence, is irrational.
<quoted text>
People can be irrational in one aspect of their lives and very smart in others. I'm sure there are brilliant rocket scientists who are complete idiots with money, for example.
<quoted text>
Yes. Religion is a barrier to freedom in this country. See, for example, religious politicians who wish to restrict the freedoms of homosexuals or women.
<quoted text>
Name any way in which I've argued to weaken freedom of religion. Saying it's wrong doesn't mean I think it should be illegal.
Once again, it is NOT an "extraordinary" claim to believers.

Women now are ahead of men in many areas...There are more of them graduating form colleges than men..They are gaining ground and running the show in a multitude of endeavors, from politics to business, so that is kind of an old argument, but point taken.

Is allowing same sex marriages going to take care of the homosexuals?... I mean what other areas are they "restricted " in their freedoms?

The rest, I'm with you:)

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#937 Oct 3, 2012
Well there ya go wrote:
<quoted text>
If the point of posting the article you linked was to show a localized flood occurred in the region, thereby giving some basis for the biblical flood, then I misunderstood your intent.
I agree that proving the entire bible false would have zero bearing on the existence of a god. I also agree, for the millionth time, that science will likely never disprove or prove the existence of the supernatural.
Truth is, if all believers were more like you the argument would be little more than coke vs pepsi. You'd do your thing and I'd do mine.
But you aren't the face of belief, the intelligently vacuous Pastor Matt E is, and he will not be content until his bigoted, oppressive and patently uneducated drivel is forced down every throat. Or until his collection plate runneth over.
LOL.. Okay you're pretty much on... I cannot find fault with reason:)

Concerning Matt- I'll keep that opinion to myself for now:)

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#938 Oct 3, 2012
Lesson Learned wrote:
<quoted text>
Excellent response. I haven't joined in this conversation because I'm not knowledgeable about the Bible and don't want to attack anyone's religious beliefs (I have my hands full debunking political rhetoric) but I have followed & enjoyed the discussion, especially your and Natalie's comments.
Question:... Does being an ultra left liberal automatically make one a Godless Heathen?:)

That was a joke...LL....don't get upset:)

P.S. You do know all, but like four Presidents, professed a religious preference don't you?

Obama wasn't one of the four:)

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#939 Oct 3, 2012
capitalist pig wrote:
<quoted text>
What world are you living in. Our laws from the begining have been based upon the Judeo-Christian Ethic. That is what the country was founded on. Surely you have read the federalist papers and the other writings of the founding fathers. John Adams wrote that our constitution was created for a moral and religious people and was inadequate to the governance of any other. Thomas Jefferson held chuch services in the rotunda of the capitol, had the marine corp band play at church services and took money from the public treasury to send missionaries to the Indians. The a supreme court judge somehow took a letter Jefferson wrote guaranteeing that religious freedom would not be imposed on and turned it into seperation of church and state. Even a casual reading of the letter is clear that was not Jeffersons intent. the intent of the founders was that there would be no national sanctioned religion. As a matter of fact states were left free to practice religious discrimination. That is how so many Baptists and Methodists ended up in WV, escaping the anglican church in VA. Now if I were to move to Iran and start trying to replace Islam with Christianity, that would be just as wrong as those who want to push the Baby Jesus off the courthouse lawn in this country.
I dont actually see you as someone who is hostile toward religion as long as no one tries to force it on you. What would be wrong with high school students debating evolution vs creationism. Isnt that what an education is supposed to do, promote critical thinking. Did you ever debate an issue where you had to take the opposing view? you can really learn a lot doing that.
Pig, now you're being silly. Thomas Jefferson was most certainly a deist, believing in no personal god or the supernatural. Have you not seen Jefferson's Bible"? Benjamin Franklin was decidedly an atheist and George Washington refused to take communion. James Madison wrote "Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise, every expanded project."

All strong proponents of a secular nation and maintaining separation of church and state.

But what if they weren't Pig? What if they were all die hard Christians? Is it your contention that the founding fathers were perfect? Were they slave owners? Did they duel in the streets? Did they allow women to vote? Own property?

Your argument could be used in Iraq to maintain their current views as well, and those views go back thousands of years, not hundreds as with ours.

Sure debate evolution and creationism all day long, in debate class. Science isn't a debate. And baby jesus has no business on the court house lawn. None. You should know that.

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#940 Oct 3, 2012
Shootist wrote:
<quoted text>
Question:... Does being an ultra left liberal automatically make one a Godless Heathen?:)
That was a joke...LL....don't get upset:)
P.S. You do know all, but like four Presidents, professed a religious preference don't you?
Obama wasn't one of the four:)
Nope, didn't know what the count was, but since such an issue was made of Obama's religion I knew he wasn't one of the unprofessed four....:)...although I suspect he is a secret atheist.

BTW, I'm ultra liberal on just some issues.
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#941 Oct 3, 2012
Pastor Matt E wrote:
<quoted text>
1- Most Hebrew scholars believe the cubit to have been no less than 18 inches long [45.72 centimeters]. This means that the Ark would have been at least 450 feet long [137.16 meters], 75 feet wide [22.86 meters] and 45 feet high [13.716000000000001 meters].
The total available floor space on the Ark would have been over 100,000 square feet, which would be more floor space than in 20 standard-sized basketball courts.
20 basketball courts sounds like a tiny zoo. Have you ever been a zoo that had 2 (or 7) of every animal on Earth?
Pastor Matt E wrote:
Doctors Morris and Whitcomb in their classic book,The Genesis Flood state that no more than 35,000 individual animals needed to go on the ark. In his well documented book, NoahÂ’s Ark: A Feasibility Study, John Woodmorappe suggests that far fewer animals would have been transported upon the ark. By pointing out that the word Â“specieÂ” is not equivalent to the Â“created kindsÂ” of the Genesis account, Woodmorappe credibly demonstrates that as few as 2,000 animals may have been required on the ark. To pad this number for error, he continues his study by showing that the ark could easily accommodate 16,000 animals.
Given that there are an estimated 10 million species of animal on Earth, that means EVERY kind has turned into an average of 10,000 new species within the past few thousand years. How does that work, especially when you reject evolution?

Furthermore, you can't discount the marine animals because if the floodwaters were freshwater, then the saltwater ones would have died. If the floodwaters were salty, then the freshwater ones would have died. Noah needs to fill his ark with giant aquariums.

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#942 Oct 3, 2012
capitalist pig wrote:
<quoted text>
What world are you living in. Our laws from the begining have been based upon the Judeo-Christian Ethic. That is what the country was founded on. Surely you have read the federalist papers and the other writings of the founding fathers.
The Federalist Papers help explain why the founders set up the country and the Constitution the way they did. They mention many Enlightenment thinkers. They don't mention the Bible as an influence at all.
capitalist pig wrote:
Thomas Jefferson held chuch services in the rotunda of the capitol, had the marine corp band play at church services and took money from the public treasury to send missionaries to the Indians.
These are religious right myths.
capitalist pig wrote:
The a supreme court judge somehow took a letter Jefferson wrote guaranteeing that religious freedom would not be imposed on and turned it into seperation of church and state. Even a casual reading of the letter is clear that was not Jeffersons intent. the intent of the founders was that there would be no national sanctioned religion. As a matter of fact states were left free to practice religious discrimination.
Church-State Separation was incorporated to the states with the 14th Amendment.
capitalist pig wrote:
Now if I were to move to Iran and start trying to replace Islam with Christianity, that would be just as wrong as those who want to push the Baby Jesus off the courthouse lawn in this country.
No, it isn't. Promoting Christianity is ILLEGAL for the government to do.

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#943 Oct 3, 2012
Shootist wrote:
<quoted text>
Once again, it is NOT an "extraordinary" claim to believers.
Of course it is. How is a supernatural being not extraordinary?
Shootist wrote:
Women now are ahead of men in many areas...There are more of them graduating form colleges than men..They are gaining ground and running the show in a multitude of endeavors, from politics to business, so that is kind of an old argument, but point taken.
Is allowing same sex marriages going to take care of the homosexuals?... I mean what other areas are they "restricted " in their freedoms?
Their restrictions are much less than they used to be. Only 10 years ago, gay people could be arrested for simply having sex in their home.

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#944 Oct 3, 2012
The_Box wrote:
<quoted text>
Of course it is. How is a supernatural being not extraordinary?
<quoted text>
Their restrictions are much less than they used to be. Only 10 years ago, gay people could be arrested for simply having sex in their home.
What is ordinary to some people?... Is having relations with someone of the same sex ordinary to a lot of people?...Evidently NOT or we wouldn't be having this conversation in the first palce:)

What I meant by belief in GOD being ordinary is the belief to THEM, it is ordinary, not to you or some others.

The restrictions you metioned concerning gays are noted, but some things heterosexuals do in the privacy of their own homes have been frowned upon and even illegal in some states:)
Are these activities they engage in ordinary to everyone?...NOPE:)
Hey Babe
#945 Oct 3, 2012
Ya can't argue with stupid and ya can't argue with Matt E. He is so stupid he doesn't even know why be believes what he believes. Yet I wonder if he actually believes it. I bet he believes in the offering plate being passed at every chance. I can imagine what damage Linda would do.
capitalist pig
#946 Oct 3, 2012
The_Box wrote:
<quoted text>
The Federalist Papers help explain why the founders set up the country and the Constitution the way they did. They mention many Enlightenment thinkers. They don't mention the Bible as an influence at all.
<quoted text>
These are religious right myths.
<quoted text>
Church-State Separation was incorporated to the states with the 14th Amendment.
<quoted text>
No, it isn't. Promoting Christianity is ILLEGAL for the government to do.
your revisionist history doesnt cut it here. I didnt mention the Bible either. When John Adams was talking about a religious people he was talking about the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob and you know that. you are purposefully trying to mislead people or your knowledge is extremely lacking.

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capitalist pig
#947 Oct 3, 2012
Well there ya go wrote:
<quoted text>
Pig, now you're being silly. Thomas Jefferson was most certainly a deist, believing in no personal god or the supernatural. Have you not seen Jefferson's Bible"? Benjamin Franklin was decidedly an atheist and George Washington refused to take communion. James Madison wrote "Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise, every expanded project."
All strong proponents of a secular nation and maintaining separation of church and state.
But what if they weren't Pig? What if they were all die hard Christians? Is it your contention that the founding fathers were perfect? Were they slave owners? Did they duel in the streets? Did they allow women to vote? Own property?
Your argument could be used in Iraq to maintain their current views as well, and those views go back thousands of years, not hundreds as with ours.
Sure debate evolution and creationism all day long, in debate class. Science isn't a debate. And baby jesus has no business on the court house lawn. None. You should know that.
your revisionist history does not change the facts. jefferson was not a diest at the time he wrote the declaration of independence. his religious views changed after he lost his wife and a good friend.(I think my previous post shows Jefferson's committment to Christianity. No thinking person could possibly argue that Washington considered himself a christian. The idea that Franklin was an athiest is more revisionist hogwash, there seems to be no real clear definition of what Franklin believed, he was probably a diest; but he clearly believed that religion was necessary to keep man in a system of order. In other words, he considered religion practical.
Of course the founding fathers were not perfect, they were men. But they were men of great vision, faith and courage. The attempts by revisionist historians to trash the founding fathers baffles me.
My mother always used the expression "all men have feet of clay"
The founding fathers spoke of divine providence, which meant that they believed that the hand of God actually directed the creation of the United States. By 1778, George Washington had so often witnessed God's intervention that on August 20, he wrote Thomas Nelson that:

The Hand of providence has been so conspicuous in all this, that he must be worse than an infidel that lacks faith, and more than wicked, that has not gratitude enough to acknowledge his obligations.[1]
In other words, without the Baby Jesus, you would not have a courthouse lawn.

Now as a nation we have moved away from religion as our culture has changed and that is the decision of the people. I think to say that we are now a Christian Nation would be a stretch of the imagination. To deny that this country was founded as a Christian Nation is to just ignore the facts.
In this debate, we have the written history, there is no missing link here.
What do you mean, science is not a debate, science is debated everyday. That is how many scientific breakthroughs happen. Now I know that the left loves to call debate closed when they cant win a point, but yes science is a debate.
BTW, neither the founding fathers or i wanted a theocracy. A majority of Americans still consider themselves to be Christian, but we are being bullied by the minority. Piss Christ belongs in a Museum, but we cant have a manger scene on the courthouse lawn. We have become a nation of sheep.

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