Steelmakers eye Gas over coal to cut ...

Steelmakers eye Gas over coal to cut costs

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Bug Ridge
Level 1

Since: Feb 12

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#3 Nov 28, 2012
Got to have coal wrote:
<quoted text>You got to have Coal to make steel
WHY?
Jon

New York, NY

#4 Nov 28, 2012
Bug Ridge wrote:
<quoted text>
WHY?
The process requires coke, a byproduct of coal, something not available with natural gas

“Don't Start Rumors!”

Since: Oct 09

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#5 Nov 28, 2012
If you read the article thoroughly , you will notice that this is not to eliminate coal but to continue in other ways to reduce our reliability on coal alone. Less coal use + the addition of other ways in energy = A cleaner and more diverse environment for everyone, physically and economically. No sense in relying so heavily on just one basket of eggs to survive when you have the ability to possess multiple baskets of eggs to choose from or use them all. It results in a more capable nation of sustainability.

“Don't Start Rumors!”

Since: Oct 09

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#6 Nov 28, 2012
Jon wrote:
<quoted text>
The process requires coke, a byproduct of coal, something not available with natural gas
However i will delight you with some wonderful things to think about if you can actually open up those narrow valleys of the brain and concentrate on what you read. And if you're pro-coal and coal is all you know, you may want to keep a dictionary close by the keyboard as you read through a potential way of eliminating coal when we really use our brains as opposed as to laying stagnant..........

“Don't Start Rumors!”

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#7 Nov 28, 2012
wood-based charcoal (derived from pyrolysis) is basically the same as coke (coal-based charcoal) with the caveats mentioned about mechanical strength, etc. and so it can be used as a substitute for the coke needed during iron production.

The problem is the large amount of wood needed to provide that charcoal.

The solution is to instead use large amounts of waste biomass to provide that charcoal.


I recently heard the figure of more than a gigaton per year of waste biomass, from the U.S. alone, that could be made available for producing cellulosic ethanol (just in case somebody figures that one out). And that accounted for the waste biomass that needs to be retained as a soil conditioner...for producing humus. And it may not have counted forest wastes either, but....
But until that waste biomass is dedicated for cellulosic ethanol....

Any pyrolyzed waste biomass (from plastics to algae) will produce charcoal suitable for iron production at some level, but pyrolysis of industrial-scale waste biomass such as nutshells, or pelletized biowastes will produce charcoal with higher mechanical strength.

"Although it is often assumed ...[charcoal] is the result of solid-phase reactions in which devolatilized biomass leaves behind a carbonaceous residue (primary char), in fact...[charcoal] is also formed by decomposition of organic vapours (tars) to form coke (secondary char). This secondary ...[charcoal] is as chemically reactive as the primary ...[charcoal] despite differences in its formation .

Essentially, somebody needs to invent synthetic coke. There are already ways of adjusting the pyrolysis process to maximize specific properties of charcoals designed for various uses such as different activated charcoals, artist's charcoals, etc. It shouldn't be hard to adjust the process to maximize the coking properties of charcoal, say by using pelletized algae for the primary (structural) charcoal, and using plastics for developing the secondary (coking) charcoal....

As the organic (plastic) vapors deposit, cleave, fractionate, and re-deposit on the primary carbonaceous structure...(just fyi)


So does this make sense? Does it seem like waste biomass is a resource out there that we could use instead of vast forest tracts? Maybe collecting and processing that waste biomass at industrial-scale facilities could replace all the coal miner jobs, but it would probably require more jobs and they'd be distributed more evenly across the country.

“Don't Start Rumors!”

Since: Oct 09

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#8 Nov 28, 2012
I know....this isnt an idea you would fathom as pro-coal therefore its not possible, just like climate change huh?
Anonymous

Beckley, WV

#9 Nov 28, 2012
DrMUDD - I am at a loss in trying to wrap my head around your animosity towards the coal mining industry and coal in general. I agree that we should not put all of our eggs in one basket. But you seem to have an unhealthy resentment relating to coal. I'd like to know your opinion on wind energy for example, and its negative effects on the environment. And the unlikeliness of reclamation of the land used. I'm a fan of natural gas but it also has its negative aspects. In the exploration of natural gas wells, it is more likely to contaminate the water table than in the exploration of coal seams. WV should make preparations to become less dependent on the extraction of coal, I agree. It's not that WV necessarily uses the coal that is mined, but we as a state, rely on the by-products of the mining process. The economy is supported by the coal miners, the equipment manufacturers rely on mining companies so that they may supply the machinery needed to extract the coal, etc. I just can't understand why you are so adamant that coal is such a burden for WV and we can't incorporate any other means of survival. WV is abundant in natural gas wells and we are exploring more ways to extract the gas safely. I am curious why you feel the way you do.
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Bug Ridge
Level 1

Since: Feb 12

Location hidden

#11 Nov 28, 2012
Izzy wrote:
<quoted text>A good plan would be to extract old Mudd and his shadow, old bug, from the state of WV and then the miners and everyone else associated with coal can go on peacefully without them expressing their ignorance every time someone in the coal industry farts!
Smells like coal smoke to me ... Are you in EPA compliance? I'll send someone to sample your blowhole. LOL

“Don't Start Rumors!”

Since: Oct 09

Location hidden

#12 Nov 28, 2012
antiobama wrote:
DrMUDD - I am at a loss in trying to wrap my head around your animosity towards the coal mining industry and coal in general. I agree that we should not put all of our eggs in one basket. But you seem to have an unhealthy resentment relating to coal. I'd like to know your opinion on wind energy for example, and its negative effects on the environment. And the unlikeliness of reclamation of the land used. I'm a fan of natural gas but it also has its negative aspects. In the exploration of natural gas wells, it is more likely to contaminate the water table than in the exploration of coal seams. WV should make preparations to become less dependent on the extraction of coal, I agree. It's not that WV necessarily uses the coal that is mined, but we as a state, rely on the by-products of the mining process. The economy is supported by the coal miners, the equipment manufacturers rely on mining companies so that they may supply the machinery needed to extract the coal, etc. I just can't understand why you are so adamant that coal is such a burden for WV and we can't incorporate any other means of survival. WV is abundant in natural gas wells and we are exploring more ways to extract the gas safely. I am curious why you feel the way you do.
Well lets start with a couple of years ago when all these miners and their wives were on here telling people such as myself that "if you dont like coal in this state then move" or
"I'll bet your ass that you couldnt do the job of a coal miner" OR

"Coal keeps the lights on", when in fact it just helps to do so. OR

"You're just jealous because my hubby makes good money while you sit on your ass collecting a check" OR

If you dont like coal, turn your TV, lights, and computer off and sit in the dark" OR

"My hubby is a real man and works hard for a living, risking his life to put food on the table to raise a family, blah, blah, blah so on and so forth" OR

"As a coal miner we deserve respect and praise for risking our lives to keep your lights on"........

Yeah, i've heard it all from these dark faced cave people. The Pro-Coal environment earned its right for me to give it right back at levels far above their narrow minded brains.

People like me love this kind of senile and immature behavior and thinking. When someone like me comes along all they can do is get mad. Phuck'em i say.

I spent almost a whole year on here telling a couple of coalminers wives about how screwed up Massey was and that they were at fault for putting profits over safety and was called every name in the book because i was against massey and the way they run coal by all these pro-coal idiots. Not a one of them could see or admit that massey was bad for them and that explosions like that are just one of the unavoidable dangers of mining coal. No one believed me when i said that massey would be no more, no one believed that employees would go to jail. No matter what these idiots stuck by massey here on topix till all the sudden they quit spewing ignorance and just quit showing up after final reports of the explosion started to appear. And they all act the very same way when you so much as say the word environment or renewable, and even the phrase "Climate Change".
You can go back in this forum in Beckley and search for the topic "UBB explosion and it will show up with i believe over 4,000 postings on it between myself, Nemesis, against a whole slew of Don Blankenship ass kissing coal miners and wives trying to defend his sorry ass and see for yourself where my attitude comes from towards them.
Anonymous

Beckley, WV

#13 Nov 28, 2012
Now I have more of an understanding of your attitude toward coal. I agree with you relating to the feedback you've gotten from people of the coal mining community. Most of the people that are replying to you are very passionate about how their family makes a living. It goes back for many generations and these people take pride in the heritage that had a hand in creating them. Yes, I am the wife of a hard-working coal miner. He does go to work everyday to provide for our family. No, I don't think he deserves an award for being a coal miner. I do think, however, he deserves respect for his choice to make a living for us, regardless of what his chosen profession might be. But that respect should first and foremost come from the people that he provides for, his family. I am aware that most people aren't concerned with how my family makes ends meet. I don't expect anyone to be concerned. And I feel like I have the right to say these things because before he decided to make a career in the mines, he was a soldier in the US Army. And that is the ultimate sacrifice that anyone in this country could make simply because it is a choice now, not a requirement.

With that being said, and I know that you owe me nothing, I think the manner in which you respond to some of the comments, you portray yourself as being hostile and unforgiving of others opinions. That is your right. My only concern is your comments criticizing coal miners and their families. "Dark faced cave people" was a reference you made in your most recent response to me. This is something that would offend most people, especially since mining has been in most families for generations. I would hope that I don't have to demean myself to the point of calling an adversary petty names. That would confirm my ignorance and lack of education.

Thank you for helping me understand why you feel the way you feel. I can respect that.
Got to have coal

Hansford, WV

#14 Nov 28, 2012
Some miner probably bitch slapped old Dr.Dumm and/or bug at one time one time to make them hate coal so much
Jon

New York, NY

#15 Nov 28, 2012
DrMUDD wrote:
If you read the article thoroughly , you will notice that this is not to eliminate coal but to continue in other ways to reduce our reliability on coal alone. Less coal use + the addition of other ways in energy = A cleaner and more diverse environment for everyone, physically and economically. No sense in relying so heavily on just one basket of eggs to survive when you have the ability to possess multiple baskets of eggs to choose from or use them all. It results in a more capable nation of sustainability.
Calm down there pal... I was simply replying to the question from the other poster on why coal is needed to make steel. You need coal, simple as that. I'll let you re-novel again with a 14 page thesis if you'd like...
1 post removed

“Don't Start Rumors!”

Since: Oct 09

Location hidden

#17 Nov 28, 2012
Got to have coal wrote:
Some miner probably bitch slapped old Dr.Dumm and/or bug at one time one time to make them hate coal so much
Nope not hardly, re-read the above post again for your answer there slick.
Got to have coal

Hansford, WV

#18 Nov 28, 2012
mud and bug are either one in the same or lovers
Anonymous

Beckley, WV

#19 Nov 28, 2012
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/fire-kills-112-...

Hopefully this link posts. There are many, many more industries that put profit before safety. Walmart should lead by example, considering they are the largest employer in the US. There are so many employers that put profits before human safety that it would take all day to list the work-place injuries and fatalities. It's not just coal.

But now Walmart is saying that the garment factory wasn't authorized to make clothes for them any longer. It's all a blame game, and the one that can distort the truth better, wins.

“Don't Start Rumors!”

Since: Oct 09

Location hidden

#20 Nov 28, 2012
antiobama wrote:
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/ fire-kills-112-workers-making- clothes-us-brands/story?id=178 07229#.ULaowoZqKyE
Hopefully this link posts. There are many, many more industries that put profit before safety. Walmart should lead by example, considering they are the largest employer in the US. There are so many employers that put profits before human safety that it would take all day to list the work-place injuries and fatalities. It's not just coal.
But now Walmart is saying that the garment factory wasn't authorized to make clothes for them any longer. It's all a blame game, and the one that can distort the truth better, wins.
Walmart is another topic and debate.

“Don't Start Rumors!”

Since: Oct 09

Location hidden

#21 Nov 28, 2012
antiobama wrote:
Now I have more of an understanding of your attitude toward coal. I agree with you relating to the feedback you've gotten from people of the coal mining community. Most of the people that are replying to you are very passionate about how their family makes a living. It goes back for many generations and these people take pride in the heritage that had a hand in creating them. Yes, I am the wife of a hard-working coal miner. He does go to work everyday to provide for our family. No, I don't think he deserves an award for being a coal miner. I do think, however, he deserves respect for his choice to make a living for us, regardless of what his chosen profession might be. But that respect should first and foremost come from the people that he provides for, his family. I am aware that most people aren't concerned with how my family makes ends meet. I don't expect anyone to be concerned. And I feel like I have the right to say these things because before he decided to make a career in the mines, he was a soldier in the US Army. And that is the ultimate sacrifice that anyone in this country could make simply because it is a choice now, not a requirement.
With that being said, and I know that you owe me nothing, I think the manner in which you respond to some of the comments, you portray yourself as being hostile and unforgiving of others opinions. That is your right. My only concern is your comments criticizing coal miners and their families. "Dark faced cave people" was a reference you made in your most recent response to me. This is something that would offend most people, especially since mining has been in most families for generations. I would hope that I don't have to demean myself to the point of calling an adversary petty names. That would confirm my ignorance and lack of education.
Thank you for helping me understand why you feel the way you feel. I can respect that.
The things i say that some may take offense to are just as bad as the things that have been used to describe me. Sorry no sympathy from me towards them in that respect. As i said before if they can dish it out then they will have to learn to like taking it right back.

“Don't Start Rumors!”

Since: Oct 09

Location hidden

#22 Nov 28, 2012
Got to have coal wrote:
mud and bug are either one in the same or lovers
If you dont have anything that includes a little intelligence to add to the topic at hand then just remain silent, you're wasting your precious energy trying to come up with something to say that you think might actually hurt my feelings nim wit.

“Don't Start Rumors!”

Since: Oct 09

Location hidden

#23 Nov 28, 2012
Izzy wrote:
<quoted text>A good plan would be to extract old Mudd and his shadow, old bug, from the state of WV and then the miners and everyone else associated with coal can go on peacefully without them expressing their ignorance every time someone in the coal industry farts!
Then you guys would just blow the piss out of the ground until you had no where for a house to live in, but you'd still have that truck and 4 wheeler floating around in mid air.

“Don't Start Rumors!”

Since: Oct 09

Location hidden

#24 Nov 28, 2012
Jon wrote:
<quoted text>
Calm down there pal... I was simply replying to the question from the other poster on why coal is needed to make steel. You need coal, simple as that. I'll let you re-novel again with a 14 page thesis if you'd like...
For now we do. But as of right now we are developing ways to need it less and less. Even for making steel. FACT

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