Current Topics in the Holiness Community

[Doctor O]

There are many dangers and problems lurking in the Holiness Community. Some of the problems are from within the community; others are outside the community hoping to see us destroy our existence so they will not have to waste the resources. There are certainly enough problems to keep this blog in a continual flow. If there are any true Holiness Spirit-filled Believers out there who would like to form a discussion which could lead to real change, I invite you to join me.

There are several topics I would like to discuss. Some of these include:

1. The erosion of parental rights in our county and how this will have a direct impact on Holiness Communities who are viewed as cults and brainwashers.
2. The political climate of our country and how religious freedom is becoming endangered.
3. The alliance of our country with those who would seek to destroy God’s Chosen people.
4. The fact many among us have betrayed us by having our faith attacked through their fanatical actions which are neither Biblical nor Christ-like.

There are many others, but I will open the forum for other discussions.

SBO

[looking for change]

Some other suggestions:
Ways to eliminate the reasons you are charged with being a cult,i.e. The church must go back to the basics of Christianity if you have to use flannel graphs. The pastors stop demanding and receiving all the tithes. People in the church take active roles in the church business. Church workers take training offered by CLA and others on the law and their responsibility's under the law when they work with children, donations and tax exempt properties. In short "everything decently and in order." There is a long way to go but it can be done, it has to start with acknowledging the problems.

[Doctor O]

looking for change wrote:

Some other suggestions:
Ways to eliminate the reasons you are charged with being a cult,i.e. The church must go back to the basics of Christianity if you have to use flannel graphs. The pastors stop demanding and receiving all the tithes. People in the church take active roles in the church business. Church workers take training offered by CLA and others on the law and their responsibility's under the law when they work with children, donations and tax exempt properties. In short "everything decently and in order." There is a long way to go but it can be done, it has to start with acknowledging the problems.

All of the things you listed are done in our church. So I am at a loss as to why we are still considered a cult. I actually use a computer/projector/screen with my SS lessons and Bible Study. I actually use quite a bit of PPT presentations.

My husband does not demand, not has he ever demanded all the tithes. We accept what our church people want to give, and as a matter of a fact, the only argument we have had was when we didn't want to take as much as they were trying to give. So, again, not guilty.

We have monthly business meetings where all of the church members are included as an open forum, and my husband always brings any new business before the church before making a decision. Again, not guilty.

Finally, while our church has never been lead through the process of by-laws and other legal issues by past pastors, my husband has already contacted the CLA and is in the process of drafting by-laws and setting up a legal structure. Again, not guilty.

So, the only reason why our church might be considered a cult is because of our pentecostal beliefs in the word of God. And I guess we could be guilty by association of other churches. However, the most strict churches do not fellowship with us anyway.

I am very proud of our congregation. They truly love God and are not hung up on legal issues. While they may not dress to the specs of the most holy of holiness people, I have confidence in their sincerity with God. I also have confidence in their prayers.

SBO

[His4ever]

Doctor O, we have a lot in common. Must be in the same ship.

[Doctor O]

One thing that does bother me is the lack of church attendance. I know what the mega churches do to attach large congregations, but living in a rural area we simply don't have that option.

If any of you have been in a rural or smaller community, and have found a method for improving church attendance, please share.

I guess my mother never made it an option of whether we would go to church or not, and so this seems a bit disconcerting to me. Even people my age (40) or older do not believe in regular church attendance as an essential.

I am not talking about people who have to work during a mid-week service. I have to miss some mid-week services when I travel with my job, so I deeply emphathize with those people. But I am talking about people who find other reasons to not attend mid-week services.

Even though it seems to be a wide-spread problem, surely there are good solutions. Anyone care to share?

[Ole mountain scrounger]

Doctor O wrote:

<quoted text>
All of the things you listed are done in our church. So I am at a loss as to why we are still considered a cult. I actually use a computer/projector/screen with my SS lessons and Bible Study. I actually use quite a bit of PPT presentations.
My husband does not demand, not has he ever demanded all the tithes. We accept what our church people want to give, and as a matter of a fact, the only argument we have had was when we didn't want to take as much as they were trying to give. So, again, not guilty.
We have monthly business meetings where all of the church members are included as an open forum, and my husband always brings any new business before the church before making a decision. Again, not guilty.
Finally, while our church has never been lead through the process of by-laws and other legal issues by past pastors, my husband has already contacted the CLA and is in the process of drafting by-laws and setting up a legal structure. Again, not guilty.
So, the only reason why our church might be considered a cult is because of our pentecostal beliefs in the word of God. And I guess we could be guilty by association of other churches. However, the most strict churches do not fellowship with us anyway.
I am very proud of our congregation. They truly love God and are not hung up on legal issues. While they may not dress to the specs of the most holy of holiness people, I have confidence in their sincerity with God. I also have confidence in their prayers.
SBO

He must not use a Dake bible. Keep doing right and outlive any accusations.

[Doctor O]

Actually he has a Dake Bible; but then, he has many Bibles.

When I questioned "Why we are still considered a cult" I did not mean that my particular church has been accused of being a cult. I meant that holiness people, collectively, are often considered a cult. This was a comment from someone on another blog.

[His4ever]

What is wrong with a Dake Bible? I have never read one.

[reader]

His4ever wrote:

What is wrong with a Dake Bible? I have never read one.

Dake was a Ass. of God preacher that had his ministerial papers revoked after he confessed to violating the Mann Act (crossing state lines with a minor girl for immoral acts) with a 16 year old girl. He went to the Church of God but left that organization as well. While there are many that argue the merits to some of his studies and commentaries there is a fundamental flaw in at least one. Many preachers in the independent holiness circles use Dake's bible to "prove" that they are to receive all the tithes,because they- the preachers- "have inherited the biblical Levitical priesthood." I have spent a lot of time on this and boy do they err with the scripture. Please study this subject if your preacher has bought into this teaching. But the greatest fallacy is that Christ destoyed the need for the Levitiacal priesthood by his vicarious death on Calvary.
My experience while limited with these claimers is that they are mean and also believe in a version of preacher infallibility. Of course there are -exceptions to every rule- so to speak the preachers I am speaking of will always say "well Dake says" not what Christ says or Paul or the bible, "Dake" says.

[Doctor O]

Thanks so much for the information on the Dake Bible. You have brought up an excellent point in which I feel we all should really pay attention. Men are fallible. There are many Bibles and commentaries out there. I know we have several. Thompson-Chain, Scofield, Dake, Women's Bible (OK that one is mine :-)KJV, NIV, NKVJ, etc...All of these were in some manner touched by the people who wrote them. Therefore, if those men have erred in anyway, people tend to scrutinize their works.
Did you know Puritans would not even touch a KJV because of the immoralities of King James? They would only read the Geneva Bible. You know, I have often wondered how many people who are hung up on one version over another have even taken the time to research the origins of their Bible.
The bottom line for me, is that I believe since the beginning of time, God has chosen to use man to deliver his message (Moses, David, Daniel, Paul, etc...) All of these men were fallible and did fall. However, God was able to use them inspite of their human frailities.
Preaching "Dake" or "Scofield" or any other man is inherently erroneous for men to do. I certainly appreciate all those scholars and commentaries of men who help us understand the language and context of the Bible. But the bottom line is the Bible should not be read without prayer. Unless a person is willing to communicate with God to see what he is sending in his message, the Bible is simply another piece of ancient literature.
Allowing others to interpret the Bible for you can be dangerous. While you can become enlightened, you can also become deceived. So, taking any man's word at face value without prayer is lunacy. That's why there are so many cults and brainwashed non-thinkers in our society today.
Call me rebellious or whatever, I no longer take everything someone tells me as the gospel. Perhaps some would say I have been heathenized, but the fact is, everytime I put my confidence in a preacher, he let me down. So, sorry guys, I'll just have to think for myself.
No one enjoys good preaching more than I do. Personally, I love to hear my husband preach. Yet I am his toughest critic.(He'll tell you that is the truth.) I love to hear men and women expound on the truth's found in God's word, and I enjoy being challenged. But when I hear a message and get stirred, I reflect on the message over and over. If there is some nagging part of the message in my mind, I definitely research it for myself.
More people should become true thinkers as well as true believers. I think sometimes men are afraid to think in case they discover some error in their faith. God is too big for you to "think" him into non-existence. Digging into knowledge of him has only brought me closer to God, not further from him.
Who is God? What does he really care about in our lives? Where does he fit in our dreams and aspirations? What does God expect of man on earth?
Unless you have asked yourself these questions and others like them, you probably have not even begun to understand your purpose here.
I am not a "Prosperity Person", just visit my home and you will see this...But I do believe we live everyday beneath our privilege as children of God. I hope we all find time to tap into his bountiful riches and knowledge as we go throughout our daily lives. God bless you all...

[Brother]

THis 100percent tithe thing is going to destroy the fellowships that think tithes should be paid..I know alot who have changed to non tithing churchs but still pays tithes.They just put in offerings..This will benifit the smaller churchs.

[Doctor O]

Tithing can be a real source of contention in a church. I have seen people who did tithe get very territorial over their "money". I have also known people who would "withhold" their tithes because they didn't like the preacher and wanted to run him off.

I think people should be wise in dealing with the business of the church. First of all, it is a business used for the purpose of providing services to the community. It should be run like a non-profit business.

In our business (my secular job) we have to be very careful of how we allocate resources. We answer to the board of directors. We must budget, stay within those constraints, and hopefully show profit for the investors at the end of each quarter.

Similarily, the church needs to have the same structure. However, when we tithe (and I do tithe although my husband pastors) we need to allow the tithes to become part of our non-profit organization. We also need to have business rules in place so they don't get made up as we go along. This helps cut back on confusion.

For example, I met with my supervisor this week, and we discussed how my business was coming along according to the budget for the year. We talked about areas in which we were doing great, and we talked about areas in which we had gone over budget. Then we talked about the reason for going over budget was due to our exponential expansion in the last few months. All was OK. It was specific, we had direction, and we knew what to expect.

Churches need to have a similar structure. What should a church budget look like? Well the first thing we need to do is look back on what we have spent in the past. Around Dec. we need to project what will be needed to survive the next year, make predictions, and set a budget.

How can you do this if you allow the pastor to take in all the tithes from the church? I am not sure. Unless people are willing and able to give abundantly outside of tithing, I don't see how this is possible.

Pastors who believe in this doctrine must certainly not embrace all of the context of the Old Testament Levitical Tribe's responsiblities. Personally, I feel if the pastor absorbs all tithes, he or she should absorb all costs of running the church, the way the Levitical tribe did in the Old Testament.

But as usual, I find most people like to pick and choose what they like from the Bible.

SBO

[His4ever]

To Reader, Berlin MD: Thanks for the information on the Dake Bible. I actually heard Dake speak at Barbourville, KY campmeeting years ago, but I was too new in the Lord and unread in the scripture to judge what he said. I do know that the campers were very divided on his teachings, and that some churches had divisions because of them. It is so important that ALL Christians study God's word, and continue in prayer. My husband also is a long-time pastor, but we had never heard of the 100% tithes for the pastor. We have always paid 10% plus, but we don't demand it of the congregation. We have never had to beg for money for the church, nor make a big issus of it. Thank God, He has always provided. (Also, we've never had to ask anyone for money for ourselves, and don't ever plan to). I am praying for a revival in the churches, knowing this is the only answer for the many problems that plague so many.

[Pay the price]

Hello everyone!
I am glad to move on to a discussion of the challenges of our way of life. We have allowed some things to creep in because of tradition or mis interpretation of the scripture. The tithe thing is a bone of great contention among the holiness people. The Bible says to bring all the tithe into the storehouse that there may be meat in mine house. Mal. 3:10

In my humble opinion, if the pastor gets all the tithes then they are responsible for ALL of the expenses of the church. Light bill, etc. I have believed since day one that the tithe is God's once it is put into the offering plate for Him to do with as he pleases. My responsibility in the matter has ended.

Having been in the holiness way of life for over thirty years, it hurts me to see the direction that we have taken.

Maybe we with God's help and our prayer and fasting can return to the way He wants us to live.

I am looking forward to some honest and sincere discussions here.

[Pay the price]

Dr O

My humblest apologies. I repeated the comments that you made about tithes. I had not read all of your blog until after I posted. What you said about the Levitical tribe is true and I have made that point to some several times ,all without success because that is " not what we have been taught"
Thank God that I was not raised in Holiness but came in as a teen after I had been taught to not be brain washed and to reason out the Word of God and let scripture interpret scripture.

[Brother]

i know of only 1 church in the holiness fellowship that is with lsd church that 100 percent of tithes does not go to pastor and that is david millers in ohio..Why is all these bigger churches doing this? Several folks have left to go to smaller churches that dont give tithes to pastor..THis is a sore spot with holiness what have we came to?

[Doctor O]

Jesus nor his disciples ever taught to take all the tithes from the church for themselves. Actually if you look at the new testament, the resources from the congregations were pulled in to the churches to help those who didn't have their own resources.

I do believe men and women who fully dedicate themselves to the service of the Lord should be blessed by the congregation (although personally I do not like to take any money from the church). My husband and I serve and have served in small rural churches, and quite frankly, those churches could not operate if all the tithes were given to the preachers.

I have found when people trust you and respect you, they will do anything within their power to help you. To me, that is more precious than any amount of money I could be given.

I think if we would all do our best to use our resources to help others and spread the Gospel, God would be more pleased with us. We would have more blessing than we could ever use.

SBO

[brother]

Doctor O wrote:

Jesus nor his disciples ever taught to take all the tithes from the church for themselves. Actually if you look at the new testament, the resources from the congregations were pulled in to the churches to help those who didn't have their own resources.
I do believe men and women who fully dedicate themselves to the service of the Lord should be blessed by the congregation (although personally I do not like to take any money from the church). My husband and I serve and have served in small rural churches, and quite frankly, those churches could not operate if all the tithes were given to the preachers.
I have found when people trust you and respect you, they will do anything within their power to help you. To me, that is more precious than any amount of money I could be given.
I think if we would all do our best to use our resources to help others and spread the Gospel, God would be more pleased with us. We would have more blessing than we could ever use.
SBO

i agree dr o.the bigger churches is just not the same anymore.i thank god there is still big name preachers that will go to a small church.but they are getting fewer and fewer i only know of 2 or 3 that will.

[Just the facts]

Brother wrote:

i know of only 1 church in the holiness fellowship that is with lsd church that 100 percent of tithes does not go to pastor and that is david millers in ohio..Why is all these bigger churches doing this? Several folks have left to go to smaller churches that dont give tithes to pastor..THis is a sore spot with holiness what have we came to?

Millers church was founded on the give it to the church and pay the pastor a salary principle long before he took pastorship there so that is what's in place there officially. He himself however DOES beleive the dake version that pastor gets all tithes and I do not think he would hesitate to tell anyone this as he is a very honest up front man from what I have seen. Because of this he is in a unique situation of getting a salary from the church plus also having many members who also believe the dake way choosing to hand him their tithes directly for his wallet in addition to that salary. So in that situation you have one pastor getting it both ways. I don't think it's fair to name Millers church as one who doesnt do the dake version because I believe if the pastor had his way, it would be set up the dake way, the church bylaws just happen to be set up different before he got there and he has honored that. From what I understand his son set up his new church the dake way too. Many people in the indiana area believe the dake version from what I've observed.

[Doctor O]

Pay the price wrote:

Dr O
My humblest apologies. I repeated the comments that you made about tithes. I had not read all of your blog until after I posted. What you said about the Levitical tribe is true and I have made that point to some several times ,all without success because that is " not what we have been taught"
Thank God that I was not raised in Holiness but came in as a teen after I had been taught to not be brain washed and to reason out the Word of God and let scripture interpret scripture.

No apologies necessary. You mentioned brainwashing. Boy have I been accused of being brainwashed in my life. What scares me is the damage which can occur when a person simply believes because that is what he or she has been told to believe.

I often think about Daniel, Esther, Shadrach, Meshach, Abednego, and others who were taken away in exile, even Moses. I have often asked myself the question, "Could my child make it if he were suddenly stripped of everything he has been raised to believe?" Then he went to college...

There is no other place on the planet where your faith can be tried any harder than a public university. Trust me, I know. So, how are we doing with our kids in our holiness churches? What is the retention rate among our youth? These questions really hit home for me, because my son is currently testing the waters. Did I teach him the truths as I should? Should I have been harder on him?

I know many have their opinions at what I should have done, but I know with all sincerity of heart, I raised him the very best that I knew how to love God.

I remember not so long ago I was having a very vocal discussion with him, and he said to me, "Momma, you taught me right from wrong, but you can't live it for me. I have to make the decision to live it for myself. You have done your part." OK, I think I can live with that. But he certainly keeps me praying.

So, what about our "brainwashing" techniques? Do you really think the kids of today's generation, Nexters and beyond, are going to take what we say at face value with no questions? Maybe they do in your section of the country, but they certainly question everything in mine.

SBO