Messianic Jews say they are persecute...

Messianic Jews say they are persecuted in Israel

There are 72071 comments on the Newsday story from Jun 21, 2008, titled Messianic Jews say they are persecuted in Israel. In it, Newsday reports that:

Safety pins and screws are still lodged in 15-year-old Ami Ortiz's body three months after he opened a booby-trapped gift basket sent to his family.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at Newsday.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#72312 Apr 23, 2014
Eric wrote:
<quoted text>I didn't respond because it's a tough question. Still contemplating
It gets tougher when you consider groups like the Humanist Jews. I opined previously that unlike the Messianics, I consider the Humanists Jewish, if only by ancestry. But I suppose one could use that argument narrowly against any denomination below your level of observance (i.e. how an Orthodox views a Conservative views a Reform etc etc..). An viewpoint I don't particularly embrace. So where are the boundaries?
former res

Cheshire, CT

#72313 Apr 23, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
Its more than that though. Often we are born into these groups, and have no say about that.("every sperm is sacred........", remember Monty Python?)
So even with Catholicism, there is an ethnic component that results in a certain demographic culture - the question is what does that demographic share culturally? Or in your question - the flip of that - what are the boundaries of that culture?
You can also ask the question I suppose from the more rigid perspective of canon as well. I just thought the cultural demographic perspective was more widely meaningful..
Absolutely. Though I think that aspect was more important in years past. Melting pot etc.

Irish-Catholic had its own identity/culture and guilt!! Jewish guilt is also quite well known as in "you never visit your motha!" I-C guilt was more about not touching yourself! and so on.

I think you see the ethnic piece more clearly in the cities - like Phila for example, the various Catholic neighborhoods - Polish, Italian (South Philly, think Rocky, cheesesteaks etc) 0and Irish (the sign says "Ye ole 2 Street" for 2nd Street) Ever hear of the Mummers? Very Irish south phila - and Catholic.

But my question did deal more with the religion itself as I can't stop being Irish and you can't stop being ethnically Jewish, and I know they are linked in many ways but regardless there has to be a limit to what can stop believing and still call himself a believer.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#72314 Apr 23, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
But my question did deal more with the religion itself as I can't stop being Irish and you can't stop being ethnically Jewish, and I know they are linked in many ways but regardless there has to be a limit to what can stop believing and still call himself a believer.
I guess my point is when even dealing with the religion itself, the ethnic component may still be inseparable. Or, to get all social science on you, Jews, like many groups, have oppositional identities. I.E. we are what we are not. We dont worship Jesus. Thats a major boundary.

But to narrowly focus on your question - I would think you would need some type of god concept to be Jewish. Not necessarily theism, but something. Humanism crosses a red line.

You dont need to believe that Torah was given to Jews by God, or that Torah was written by God - the Reform movement doesnt believe that - they believe that the Torah is mans written response TO god.

You don't have to believe that Jews were chosen by God anymore than other peoples to do God's will - The Reconstructionists and the Reform jettisoned that concept as well.

You do have to believe in a core set of ethics -(not unlike Catholicism) such as charity, concern for the poor, making the world a better place, lovingkindness, social justice etc etc, and believe in a core set of holiday observances (whether you observe them or not).....You dont have to keep kosher (even though you know you do!)- from a practical perspective many Jews don't.
former res

Cheshire, CT

#72315 Apr 23, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
I guess my point is when even dealing with the religion itself, the ethnic component may still be inseparable. Or, to get all social science on you, Jews, like many groups, have oppositional identities. I.E. we are what we are not. We dont worship Jesus. Thats a major boundary.
But to narrowly focus on your question - I would think you would need some type of god concept to be Jewish. Not necessarily theism, but something. Humanism crosses a red line.
Judaism is considered a monotheistic religion. Theistic.
Also one is a theist or an atheist - the old binary switch is on or it isn't.(With gnostic vs agnostic question to quickly follow..) Again, boundaries, basic truths.

Guess I'm still not clear (or don't agree with) the "god concept" vs theism difference.

Otherwise, maybe I'm just being t0o strict and can go ahead and call myself Catholic or Christian. Perhaps I'm taking them too much at their word and respecting the religion and beliefs too much to still call myself one of them??
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
You dont need to believe that Torah was given to Jews by God, or that Torah was written by God - the Reform movement doesnt believe that - they believe that the Torah is mans written response TO god.
"To god" - see above. To who/what? your conscience? the better you? the universe?

I believe in some of those.
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
You don't have to believe that Jews were chosen by God anymore than other peoples to do God's will - The Reconstructionists and the Reform jettisoned that concept as well.
You do have to believe in a core set of ethics -(not unlike Catholicism) such as charity, concern for the poor, making the world a better place, lovingkindness, social justice etc etc,
To me (shared by almost every major religion) a version of the Golden Rule. covers all this pretty much.
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
and believe in a core set of holiday observances (whether you observe them or not).....You dont have to keep kosher (even though you know you do!)- from a practical perspective many Jews don't.
"As one of the most culturally significant Jewish holidays, Yom Kippur is observed by many secular Jews who may not observe other holidays. Many secular Jews attend synagogue on Yom Kippur—for many secular Jews the High Holy Days are the only recurring times of the year in which they attend synagogue[4]—causing synagogue attendance to soar."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yom_Kippur

My sis and mom only go to mass on Christmas eve.

Yet they both consider themselves to be Catholic.

Maybe I'm just an all or nothing type guy. aka obsessive-compulsive

:)

ps I need a few sunny dry days in a row to scrap and paint my bilco doors!!! maybe tomorrow
former res

Cheshire, CT

#72316 Apr 23, 2014
Sounds like theism mean believing in a god concept:

Full Definition of THEISM

: belief in the existence of a god or gods; specifically : belief in the existence of one God viewed as the creative source of the human race and the world who transcends yet is immanent in the world

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/the...

Conceptions of God in monotheist, pantheist and panentheist religions – or of the supreme deity in henotheistic religions – can extend to various levels of abstraction:

##as a powerful, human-like, supernatural being, or as the deification of an esoteric, mystical or philosophical entity or category;
##as the "Ultimate", the summum bonum, the "Absolute Infinite", the "Transcendent", or Existence or Being itself;
##as the ground of being, the monistic substrate, that which we cannot understand; and so on.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conceptions_of_G...

[I wouldn't say I hold with any of the above]
former res

Cheshire, CT

#72317 Apr 23, 2014
The conception of God in Judaism is strictly monotheistic. God is an absolute one, indivisible and incomparable being who is the ultimate cause of all existence. Jewish tradition teaches that the true aspect of God is incomprehensible and unknowable, and that it is only God's revealed aspect that brought the universe into existence, and interacts with mankind and the world. In Judaism, the one God of Israel is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, who is the guide of the world, delivered Israel from slavery in Egypt, and gave them the 613 Mitzvot at Mount Sinai as described in the Torah.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_in_Judaism

JOEL COOL DUDE

Since: Jan 14

Location hidden

#72318 Apr 23, 2014
CRASS MATERIALISM AND THE LOSS OF FINER FACULTIES

CHARLES DARWIN developed, in his own words, a "curious and lamentable loss of the higher aesthetic tastes."

Charles Darwin expressed this loss in his autobiography:

"I have said in one respect that my mind has changed over the last 20 or 30 years. Up to the age of 30 or beyond it, poetry of many kinds such as the works of Milton, Gray, Byron, Wordsworth, Coleridge and Shelley gave me great pleasure, and even as a school boy, I took intense delight in Shakespeare...I have also said that formerly pictures gave me considerable, and music very great delight. But now for many years, I cannot endure to read to read a line of poetry: I have tried lately to read Shakespeare and found it so intolerably dull that it nauseated me. I've also almost lost my taste for pictures and music....My mind seems to have become a kind of machine for grinding general laws out of a large collection of facts, but why this should have caused the atrophy of that part of the brain alone, on which the higher tastes depend, I cannot conceive....The loss of these tastes is a loss of happiness, and may possibly be injurious to the intellect, and more probably to the moral character, by enfeebling the emotional part of our nature."

JOEL: It's ironic that Darwin should have expressed these thoughts.

LIAM R: The premature death of a beloved child can do that to a man...

JOEL: No. Shouldn't the so-called personal gain of Darwin associated with his crass materialism led him to greater joys?

Death of a child is a "personal loss" to a parent but crass materialism is seen as a "personal gain" by its advocates and so how can "personal loss" due to the death of a near one be compared to a "personal gain" that a crass materialists associates with his philosophy?

Premature death of a child can make a person overly emotional for some time but if the parent is emotionally mature he soon recovers from the shock and carries on with his normal life and with the passage of time the loss of the child usually heals without damaging or petrifying any of the finer faculties of the parent - in fact, on many occasions, grief may bring out greater appreciation of nature, life, relationships, compassion, aesthetics and literature; whereas, on the other hand, crass materialism, in many ways, as seen in the case of Charles Darwin, leads to a life-long state of desensitization/destruction of the finer faculties that's quite different from an overly emotional state associated with the grieving parent that usually endures for some time.

Darwin has given us a good picture of how his finer faculties either got desensitized or atrophied due to his crass materialistic beliefs that begins with dead matter and ends with dead matter and which follow blind mechanistic processes that does not distinguish between a stone and a human being.

JOEL COOL DUDE

Since: Jan 14

Location hidden

#72321 Apr 23, 2014
SENTIENCE

PART 1

JOEL: How did sentience arise in insentient matter?

LIAM R: The rise of sentience is not a paradox. As long as energy continues to enter a system, that system can grow in complexity.

JOEL: How would that explain the rise of sentience in insentient energy/matter remembering that sentience and insentience are diametrically opposite states with no causal connection to each other?

A complex system would lead to what?

Ordered or disordered states?

Assuming that even if greater energy inputs enter a system thereby leading to a highly complex ordered state would this give rise to sentience in the system?

Take the example of an entity that in the mineral kingdom is sufficiently complex and pretty well ordered like a crystal.

A crystal or crystalline solid is a solid material whose constituent atoms, molecules, or ions are arranged in an ordered pattern extending in all three spatial dimensions.

So, is there any degree of sentience manifested in the crystal?

Will a greater input of energy into the crystal make it more complex and thereby living?

OTOH, take the smallest microbe which is also a complex entity that displays a good degree of order but the difference is that it is sentient with it showing all the attendant signs of life.

JOEL COOL DUDE

Since: Jan 14

Location hidden

#72322 Apr 23, 2014
PART 2:

Take a just expired living being and pump into it all the energy in the form of chemicals or electrical impulses one wishes to but in-spite of these inputs its existing complex machinery won't get more complex and come back to life.

So, where lies the difference?

If one takes the stand of matter itself being innately charged with sentient, as demonstrated by J C Bose, then one can logically assert that energy assumes a hierarchy of materials forms with the degree of its innate sentience corresponding to the degree of complexity of its material form which thereby indicates that each material form is based on a sentient principle that inheres in the energy field and as such one avoids the strained and fruitless explanation of having to create sentience from insentient energy/matter which is simply impossible and a shocking paradox and which stands on the same illogical level of the religious belief in creation from nothing.

JOEL COOL DUDE

Since: Jan 14

Location hidden

#72323 Apr 23, 2014
For most people, charity consists of giving anything to anyone without even knowing whether this gift corresponds to a real need. Thus charity is made synonymous with sentimental weakness and irrational squandering.

JOEL COOL DUDE

Since: Jan 14

Location hidden

#72324 Apr 23, 2014
THINK BEFORE ACTING

By a faulty distribution of material possessions, one can hasten the downfall of certain individuals by encouraging them to be lazy, instead of favoring their progress by inciting them to effort. The same holds true for intelligence and love. To give someone a knowledge which is too strong for him, thoughts which he cannot assimilate, is to deprive him for long, if not for ever, of the possibility of thinking for himself, conversely, the knowledge dispensed could be erroneously applied with harmful consequences. In the same way, to impose on someone an affection or a love, for which he feels no need, is to make him carry a burden which is often too heavy for his shoulders.

JOEL COOL DUDE

Since: Jan 14

Location hidden

#72325 Apr 23, 2014
CUT WASTE

There is wisdom in charity as everywhere, and it is to reduce waste to the minimum. Thus to be truly charitable one must be “impersonal”. And once more we see that all lines of human progress converge on the same necessity: self-mastery, dying to oneself in order to be born into the new and true life. To the extent that we outgrow the habit of referring everything to ourselves, we can exercise a truly effective charity, a charity that's one with love.

JOEL COOL DUDE

Since: Jan 14

Location hidden

#72326 Apr 23, 2014
THE SUBLIME GIVING

There is a sublime charity, one which rises from a happy heart, from a serene soul. One who has won inner peace is a herald of deliverance wherever he goes, a bearer of hope and joy. Is not this what poor and suffering humanity needs above all things? Yes, there are certain men whose thoughts are all love, who radiate love, and the mere presence of these individuals is a charity far more active, more real than any other form of charity. Though they utter no word and make no gesture, yet the sick are relieved, the tormented are soothed, the ignorant are enlightened, the wicked are appeased, those who suffer are consoled and all undergo this deep transformation which will open new horizons to them, enable them to take a step forward which no doubt will be decisive, on the infinite path of progress

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#72327 Apr 23, 2014
former res wrote:
The conception of God in Judaism is strictly monotheistic. God is an absolute one, indivisible and incomparable being who is the ultimate cause of all existence. Jewish tradition teaches that the true aspect of God is incomprehensible and unknowable, and that it is only God's revealed aspect that brought the universe into existence, and interacts with mankind and the world. In Judaism, the one God of Israel is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, who is the guide of the world, delivered Israel from slavery in Egypt, and gave them the 613 Mitzvot at Mount Sinai as described in the Torah.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_in_Judaism
We can split hairs, but there are many different God concepts in the Jewish religion, from the God in the sky of the literal reading of the bible to various panentheistic, pantheist, and non dualistic concepts popular in Hasidism and in the Kabbala.

The citations you are quoting dont get into the issue very deeply

Try this source
Everything Is God: The Radical Path of Nondual Judaism
http://www.amazon.com/Everything-Is-God-Radic...

or this
Radical Judaism: Rethinking God and Tradition
http://www.amazon.com/Radical-Judaism-Rethink...

JOEL COOL DUDE

Since: Jan 14

Location hidden

#72328 Apr 23, 2014
THE CORRECT ATTITUDE:

We want to diminish suffering, but unless we change in fundamental ways from the mind to the emotion to the body and down to the subconscient, the capacity of suffering remains intact and humankind will not change.

We turn in a circle – one civilization follows another; but the thing does not change, for there is something missing which is the higher consciousness with its transforming force.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#72329 Apr 23, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
\
"As one of the most culturally significant Jewish holidays, Yom Kippur is observed by many secular Jews who may not observe other holidays. Many secular Jews attend synagogue on Yom Kippur—for many secular Jews the High Holy Days are the only recurring times of the year in which they attend synagogue[4]—causing synagogue attendance to soar."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yom_Kippur
My sis and mom only go to mass on Christmas eve.
Yet they both consider themselves to be Catholic.
Maybe I'm just an all or nothing type guy. aka obsessive-compulsive
:)
ps I need a few sunny dry days in a row to scrap and paint my bilco doors!!! maybe tomorrow
Part of your "all or nothing" has to do with the fact you want to believe before you leap.

But as you know, there are many gradations in between.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#72330 Apr 23, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
"To god" - see above. To who/what? your conscience? the better you? the universe?
I believe in some of those.
You should chat with Eric - he is Reform, he would have a better handle on what his movement stands for regarding whether the Torah is divine or not.

JOEL COOL DUDE

Since: Jan 14

Location hidden

#72331 Apr 23, 2014
THE SO-CALLED NONDUAL JUDAISM - A HOAX

"In this nondual view, everyone and everything manifests God"

JOEL: Misleading idea.

It is just the other way around.

The Source (G-d) manifests out of its essence everything that exists which means that every manifested aspect of the Source is in the essence a holon with the perfection of the Source inhering in its core.

How each holon develops would depend on its evolution in space-time over numerous cosmic cycles that in turn is determined by its karma.

If we take the stand of the Kaballah which is that "everyone and everything manifests God" it would imply that this so-called God permeates the universe and that by some close living in God we come to connect with this God and as such manifest God.

This is dualism in which there somehow exists a causal link between God and being and that through following him we come to connect with him and as such manifest him.

To manifest God does not mean to become God.

To manifest God means to connect with this God and to become a tiny channel of somehow receiving his power.

Nondualism is very different - it is simply a case of the One manifesting as the Many with the Many being a certain number of equally constituted holons (with the essence of the One at the core of each holon) that through many cosmic cycles get more and more in direct touch with their core which is the essence of the Source itself and at last after one re-merges with the core consciousness the subject-object divide dissolves and the holon reclaims its original nature which is that of the Source with there being no fundamental difference between subject and object in this highest nondual poise - "I am God" says the mystic after this fundamental experiences in the deepest of trance states on the highest plane of existence that he connects with through his awakened psychic.

JOEL COOL DUDE

Since: Jan 14

Location hidden

#72333 Apr 23, 2014
In a future post, I'll explain why BUDDHISM is NOT a NON-DUAL faith despite the puerile writings of ignorant people claiming it to be a monistic faith.

JOEL COOL DUDE

Since: Jan 14

Location hidden

#72334 Apr 23, 2014
BUDDHA HAD A PARTIAL UNDERSTANDING OF REALITY

BUDDHA was a partially perfected being whose idea of perfection was shallow and much of it was directed at a timid acceptance of the morbid life conditions without any attempt to perfect the inferior movements and to whom perfection meant a simple stepping back from everything of a disturbing nature. Another mistake Buddha made was to consider everything to be in a never-ending state of flux which is not the case except in the frontal aspects of existence. Change and evanescence are the phenomena of the lower parts. All these inferior teachings are only to be expected from an individual (Buddha) whose highest knowledge of the reality began and ended in the cosmic Maya without any idea of the numerous planes of the cosmic hierarchy leading to the source and the way to perfecting every lower plane by bringing down the power of the highest planes into the lower vehicles.

Tell me when this thread is updated:

Subscribe Now Add to my Tracker

Add your comments below

Characters left: 4000

Please note by submitting this form you acknowledge that you have read the Terms of Service and the comment you are posting is in compliance with such terms. Be polite. Inappropriate posts may be removed by the moderator. Send us your feedback.

Bayard Discussions

Title Updated Last By Comments
Silver City Tourist Experience Apr 18 Visiting Tourists 1
News Senator Morales condemns citizenship question o... Apr 3 Rayber Degn 1
News Silver City street improvements total $13 million Mar '18 Nice 1
News Prior sex offender from Silver City sentenced t... Feb '18 Dan Yardbird 2
News DA Walks Away from what should have been a DUI ... (Jul '16) Feb '18 rwreck86 3
Confirmed Denny's IS moving into Silver City (Nov '08) Feb '18 FEMA Region lll 29
News Their view: No clear gain in dispute over Falkl... (Mar '10) Jan '18 Tony 632

Bayard Jobs

Personal Finance

Bayard Mortgages