Messianic Jews say they are persecuted in Israel

[Frijoles]

former res wrote:

<quoted text>
You consider "feelings" to be evidence?
Or writings from previous believers?(Though I know many believers consider these to be written by the "hand of god" - but this belief is based on what? belief? faith? intuition?)
Can't agree.
Besides, you miss a central tenet of religion - that faith is belief withOUT proof. I don't think you can have it both ways: "It's faith BUT there is actual evidence." In that case, one would not need faith.
As previously posted:
faith
/f&#257;TH/
Noun
1.Com plete trust or confidence in someone or something.
2.Strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof.
You have to admit that to say your evidence is partly "subjective experiential feelings" smacks of thruthiness:
"Truthiness is a quality characterizing a "truth" that a person making an argument or assertion claims to know intuitively "from the gut" or because it "feels right" without regard to evidence, logic, intellectual examination, or facts.[1]"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truthiness

again, you are using conventional modern standards for proof. Modern QA/QC.

to someone who believes in their feelings, and who doesnt share our modern sensibilities - yes, it is evidence. You can weigh it according to our modern standard and reject it as credible.

I didnt say everyone did this. If you scrolled back and looked at my language, I said some did. Others are fine just accepting things on faith and not even claiming evidentiary status. Your citation is relevent to this latter group.

[Frijoles]

former res wrote:

<quoted text>
Are you a fellow atheist?

Atheism was developed by our government in order to prepare us for One World government. That is why the government created Karl Marx.

[Frijoles]

former res wrote:

<quoted text>
You consider "feelings" to be evidence?

"Evidence, broadly construed, is anything presented in support of an assertion. This support may be strong or weak."

Evidence is a rather broad category.

You are confusing "evaluation" with "evidence"

[rabbee yehoshooah adam]

former res wrote:

<quoted text>
You consider "feelings" to be evidence?
Or writings from previous believers?(Though I know many believers consider these to be written by the "hand of god" - but this belief is based on what? belief? faith? intuition?)
Can't agree.
Besides, you miss a central tenet of religion - that faith is belief withOUT proof. I don't think you can have it both ways: "It's faith BUT there is actual evidence." In that case, one would not need faith.
As previously posted:
faith
/f&#257;TH/
Noun
1.Com plete trust or confidence in someone or something.
2.Strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof.
You have to admit that to say your evidence is partly "subjective experiential feelings" smacks of thruthiness:
"Truthiness is a quality characterizing a "truth" that a person making an argument or assertion claims to know intuitively "from the gut" or because it "feels right" without regard to evidence, logic, intellectual examination, or facts.[1]"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truthiness

rabbee: well so what - the multitudes in the desert, had proof but no faith. after all that proof, they still build a guilded calf. after all that proof, they all complained manna manna manna is that all we ever get to eat. and after all that proof - wasted all that time, bitchin and moanen. G-D got so sick of it, THEY even gave them with mad quail disease to reward them. and still after that proof, they refused to get the message.

[susanblange]

Frijoles wrote:

<quoted text>
Atheism was developed by our government in order to prepare us for One World government. That is why the government created Karl Marx.

Christians believe the one world government to be created by an "Antichrist" but also believe that same government to be headed by Jesus. Maybe that's why Jesus said, "Behold I come as a thief". This Antichrist is also supposed to bring world peace but Christians won't take that as evidence that this person is the Messiah either. There is none so blind as he who will not see.

[Frijoles]

Frijoles wrote:

<quoted text>
Atheism was developed by our government in order to prepare us for One World government. That is why the government created Karl Marx.

That salvo was directed at Volunteerloon, not Former Res.

[Frijoles]

susanblange wrote:

<quoted text>Christians believe the one world government to be created by an "Antichrist" but also believe that same government to be headed by Jesus. Maybe that's why Jesus said, "Behold I come as a thief". This Antichrist is also supposed to bring world peace but Christians won't take that as evidence that this person is the Messiah either. There is none so blind as he who will not see.

People need to stop worrying, and just be happy.

[susanblange]

Frijoles wrote:

<quoted text>
People need to stop worrying, and just be happy.

Eat, drink, and be merry. All is vanity anyway.

[rabbee yehoshooah adam]

susanblange wrote:

<quoted text>Christians believe the one world government to be created by an "Antichrist" but also believe that same government to be headed by Jesus. Maybe that's why Jesus said, "Behold I come as a thief". This Antichrist is also supposed to bring world peace but Christians won't take that as evidence that this person is the Messiah either. There is none so blind as he who will not see.

rabbee: but the one who has already, decieved this worlds grandmother chaooah again. is already in charge, even if you cannot comprehend his power of deception in this world. and you are also, under his influence.

[rabbee yehoshooah adam]

be very careful today, your thoughts are not your thoughts.

[Voluntarist]

former res wrote:

<quoted text>
I was born here; hold a US passport; and I vote.
Yes yes yes.

Born where? in some imaginary place that your mommy called "the state of whatever"
So you have faith in something that doesnt exist, that being a citizen is one that owes an oath of allegience in exchange for a duty if protection, however there is no duty to protect.

[JOEL]

susanblange wrote:

<quoted text>

The mind of God is like the internet. It's accessible any where in the world to anywhere in the world. Thoughts, or prayer come immediately to God.

LOL.

That's not true.

What you call God, your Biblical God, is one out of many vital beings - a petty, bloodthirsty, ignorant entity of the cosmic vital plane.

This being, your Biblical God, has limited reach and can cast a spell - a most unhealthy one - only on those who worship or propitiate it.

The beings of the higher planes that exceed the cosmic vital do not seek to be worshipped as they're free of megalomania, narcissism and egoism.

From the Supermind begins the truly beneficial or divine planes of cosmic existence.

To reach the supramental planes is a Herculean task and not more than say 6 to 7 individuals in the whole of human history have attained to it via the trance state of the highest order.

Still rarer is the attempt to cause the supramental power to descend into the lower planes of overmind (1 to 4), intuition mind, illumined mind, higher mind, mind, higher vital, lower vital, subtle physical, gross physical, subconscient and finally into the inconscient so as to transform them via supramentalization.

Abraham, Jesus, Daniel, Elijah, Moses, Muhammad and other demon-worshippers were centered via trance on the adverse aspects of the cosmic vital planes. Their God was a vital being, a bloodthirsty, megalomanical, narcissistic, egoistic, cruel, fanatical, sectarian, jealous and martial being. Krishna, Rama and Buddha, too, attained to a state of consciousness below the supermind or they were embodiments of the infra-supramental planes.

There exist planes that far exceed the quadruple planes of the supermind which enter the supracosmic realms.

The unified field of consciousness-energy with its innate causal mechanism exceeds the supracosmic ranges and is the self-existent source of the entire supracosmic and cosmic Manifestation.

It's only from the supermind onwards that the beginning of a truly unified state based the first lights of omniscience, omnipotence and omnipresence puts in an appearance.

Everything below the supramental planes is based on division, ignorance and struggle.

[Voluntarist]

former res wrote:

<quoted text>
Are you a fellow atheist?

You dont have to believe in religion but dont be so ignorant as to believe that you know everything.
I dont have an opinion on the matter but i find athiests aggressive anti-religion sermons to be as boring and annoying as religious zealots rhetoric.

[JOEL]

MECHANISM OF DEATH & THE DYNAMICS OF THE AFTERLIFE:

Till now death is a natural phenomenon given the unregenerate state of matter with its wear and tear, friction, decomposition and susceptibility to disintegration via poisoning, accidents and weapons.

So, unregenerate matter (the body) cannot contain the finer movements of consciousness that inhere in it forever and at one point in time, on account of one or more of the above given reasons, matter gives away and is unable to hold the innate consciousness with its various aspects and their concomitant energies and this leads to a complete breakdown of the physical machinery - a condition which we call death.

The varied parts and planes of being - gross physical, subtle physical, vital and mental - centered or diffused around the psychic (the central consciousness) that depends on the degree of evolution of consciousness of the individual determined by heredity, karma and carried over past life instincts, escape (I mean the psychic consciousness with its overlying mental, vital and physical aspects escapes) through the micro-aperture at the top of the head and thereafter each part, depending on its attachment to the psychic, breaks free from the pull of the psychic and scatters in its own dimension - the gross physical energies mingle with the universal plane of the gross physical energies, next to escape is the subtle physical consciousness-energy that scatters in the universal subtle physical plane, then the vital consciousness layer with its accompanying energy breaks free of the attraction of the psychic and mingles as particles in the cosmic vital dimension and finally the mental apparatus of the individual breaks its link with the psychic and scatters in the cosmic mind plane.

Now, the unsheathed psychic which is directly linked to the cosmic self and beyond to the supracosmic self which in turn is a direct projection of the unified field of consciousness-energy retains the imprints of the individual's gross physical, subtle physical, vital and mental karma and instincts and then enters a state of quiescence and after a time it descends to embody itself once again and so on.....

However, how quickly each sheath of consciousness-energy that overlies the psychic breaks free of the pull of the psychic would depend on the degree of development of that particular plane....and more....

[JOEL]

ADDENDUM ON THE AFTERLIFE & IMMORTALITY:

1) If an individual is highly gifted in say the arts, science or poetry then the corresponding sheath of consciousness with its innate energy content affiliated to his well-developed skill is not dissipated after death and this part of the individual's personality firmly adheres to the indwelling psychic.

2) A yogi can maintain intact all the sheaths - subtle physical, vital and mental - even after voluntarily quitting his body (dropping off the physical body and the escape of the gross physical energies into the universal gross energy field) and these sheaths remain intimately attached to the psychic.

3) An advanced yogi can even prevent physical death by infusing his body with the vital force or with the superior supramental power.

4) However, the vitalized body though immortal is not invincible and can be shattered to pieces by accidents or destroyed by weapons and/or poisons.

5) Whereas the supramentalized body is immortal and invincible and is not affected by anything and its degree of gnosticism is high enough to border on the omniscience, omnipresence and omnipotence of the supramental kind.

6) Besides, the organ systems in such a supramentalized body gradually atrophy and in place are activated the various force centers along the spine that extend outside the body in the force dimensions above the head and all these force centers can then commune directly with the play of the cosmic forces.

7) In case of ordinary individuals, the overlying sheaths of the subtle physical, the vital and the mental consciousnesses get diffused after each sheath works out its causation (karma).

[Gtown71]

JOEL wrote:

<quoted text>
LOL.
That's not true.
What you call God, your Biblical God, is one out of many vital beings - a petty, bloodthirsty, ignorant entity of the cosmic vital plane.
This being, your Biblical God, has limited reach and can cast a spell - a most unhealthy one - only on those who worship or propitiate it.
The beings of the higher planes that exceed the cosmic vital do not seek to be worshipped as they're free of megalomania, narcissism and egoism.
From the Supermind begins the truly beneficial or divine planes of cosmic existence.
To reach the supramental planes is a Herculean task and not more than say 6 to 7 individuals in the whole of human history have attained to it via the trance state of the highest order.
Still rarer is the attempt to cause the supramental power to descend into the lower planes of overmind (1 to 4), intuition mind, illumined mind, higher mind, mind, higher vital, lower vital, subtle physical, gross physical, subconscient and finally into the inconscient so as to transform them via supramentalization.
Abraham, Jesus, Daniel, Elijah, Moses, Muhammad and other demon-worshippers were centered via trance on the adverse aspects of the cosmic vital planes. Their God was a vital being, a bloodthirsty, megalomanical, narcissistic, egoistic, cruel, fanatical, sectarian, jealous and martial being. Krishna, Rama and Buddha, too, attained to a state of consciousness below the supermind or they were embodiments of the infra-supramental planes.
There exist planes that far exceed the quadruple planes of the supermind which enter the supracosmic realms.
The unified field of consciousness-energy with its innate causal mechanism exceeds the supracosmic ranges and is the self-existent source of the entire supracosmic and cosmic Manifestation.
It's only from the supermind onwards that the beginning of a truly unified state based the first lights of omniscience, omnipotence and omnipresence puts in an appearance.
Everything below the supramental planes is based on division, ignorance and struggle.

Hey Joel, it's been a while.

I see you're still using fifty dollar words, that when added all together amount to nothing.:)

You seem like a smart guy, just not very wise, at all.

Ever learning, but never able to come to the truth.

Just a thought, "IF" there was a GOD, do you not think that GOD could be, do, say, think, BE WHATEVER IT WISHED?

People /athiest /agnostic are always saying show me proof!!
My God set the deal up, that if you recieve His grace, mercy, salvation, that you must do it by faith, not proof.

I've told you before, but lets look at this thing scientific like :

I did Not believe in God up till I was 29 yo.
I thought those who did were idiots.
I was raised in church till age 9 church of christ.
long story short, my parents divorced, we stopped going to church, I found my father dead at age 10 -that night I felt "something" put it's arm around me and whisper in my left ear "there is no god! " "how could a loving god let you find your own father dead? " I agreed with it with all of my being, and it was only made stronger, as my strict "godly" mom began to go to the bars, bringing home a different man every other night!

Yet at age 29 -my life was in a mess, and THIS GOD I didn't believe in woke me up, and after a struggle I yeilded to Him, by simply saying "ok God, but You're going to have to help me "

That's been about 12 years ago Joel, and my.life is still changed from one extreme to another. I'm not perfect "far from it ",but Joel my soul was saved that night, and I am going to Heaven.

You can do as you will with this, and I already kinda know what you will, but I told you Joel. God is real, and loves you very much, no.matter if you love Him back or not.

I pray you find truth Joel, and meet God as your savior, instead of your judge.
You're a very smart man, and I pray soon wise as well :)

[former res]

Frijoles wrote:

<quoted text>
again, you are using conventional modern standards for proof. Modern QA/QC.
to someone who believes in their feelings, and who doesnt share our modern sensibilities - yes, it is evidence. You can weigh it according to our modern standard and reject it as credible.
I didnt say everyone did this. If you scrolled back and looked at my language, I said some did. Others are fine just accepting things on faith and not even claiming evidentiary status. Your citation is relevent to this latter group.

I do not agree that believing strongly enough that night is day or that up is down, makes it so - even for those who believe it.

[former res]

Frijoles wrote:

<quoted text>
"Evidence, broadly construed, is anything presented in support of an assertion. This support may be strong or weak."
Evidence is a rather broad category.
You are confusing "evaluation" with "evidence"

Sure, in court, each side presents its "evidence."

But there is evidence, and then there is evidence.

I believe we both know what we mean.

[Gtown71]

Sorry for the double post.
read it twice?

My geuss, you will "skim" it.
That's a normal thing for highly intellects :)

[Gtown71]

After looking at how my life was changed in such a way, like the difference in light and darkness, or better from darkness to light.
I truly believe any scientist worth their wieght in salt, would, after viewing all evidence conclude there is a GOD :)

I KNOW I BELIEVE THERE IS A GOD :)