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# Messianic Jews say they are persecuted in Israel

There are 72047 comments on the Newsday story from Jun 21, 2008, titled Messianic Jews say they are persecuted in Israel. In it, Newsday reports that:

Safety pins and screws are still lodged in 15-year-old Ami Ortiz's body three months after he opened a booby-trapped gift basket sent to his family.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at Newsday.

Gtown71

United States

#47005 Jan 14, 2013
Cult of Reason wrote:
<quoted text>
Logic Fail #1: You talk about the existence of "absolute truth" (also known as Universality in philosophical circles) but show no correlation between that statement and the existence of a god. I too believe that absolute truth can exist, but in the form of logic and mathematics, not in the existence of an imaginary being.
Logic Fail #2: You talk about absolute truth, yet fail to describe an objective yard stick for ascertaining such truth, instead relying on subjective experience ("...if a man truly wants to know the One True God, the that man can call out within himself").
Your arguments are strictly emotion-based and filled with anecdotes of your "coming to Jesus" experience. That is fine if it helped get you through a rough spot, but your personal experience has no relevance to the topic of "absolute truth".
3 men were traveling together, and wanted to save money, so the decided to stay in a motel room together.
They ask the motel clerk, how much are rooms.
The clerk said 30 dollars, so each man gives the clerk 10 dollars each.

Later the motel manager asked the clerk -have you sold any rooms? The clerk says yes, I sold 1 for 30 dollars.
The manager said, but rooms are only 25 dollars, so please take these 5 one's and give them back to the men.

On the way to the room, the clerk begin to think (the men don't know how much I am to give them, so the clerk takes 2 of the dollar bills, and puts them in his pocket. When he gets to the room, he explains how he overcharged the men, and handed each man back 1 dollar.

Now, instead of each man being out 10 dollars each for the room, they are only out 9 dollars each.

Yet 9 times 3 = 27 + the 2 dollars the clerk stoled only comes to 29, so what happened to the other dollar?

Mans ruler can be incorrect many times.
New homes are not as straight as you might think.

Yes -man can build some amazing things, and even more amazing to me, is how whatever you see -homes, buildings, cell phones, computers, anything. It all came out of the dirt.
Gods dirt.
HughBe

Kingston, Jamaica

#47006 Jan 14, 2013
MAAT wrote:
The word "spirit" came into Middle English via Old French. The distinction between soul and spirit also developed in the Abrahamic religions: Arabic nafs (&#1606;&#1601;&#1 587;) opposite rú&#295; (&#1585;&#1608;&#1 581;); Hebrew neshama (&#1504;&#1456;&#1 513;&#1464;&#1473; &#1502;&#1464;&#14 92; n&#601;šâmâh) or nephesh (in Hebrew neshama comes from the root NŠM or "breath") opposite ruach (&#1512;&#1493;&#1 468;&#1495;&#1463; rûa&#295;).(Note, however, that in Semitic just as in Indo-European, this dichotomy has not always been as neat historically as it has come to be taken over a long period of development: Both &#1504;&#1462;&#14 51;&#1508;&#1462;& #1513;&#1473; (root &#1504;&#1508;&#15 13;&#1473;) and &#1512;&#1493;&#14 68;&#1495;&#1463; (root &#1512;&#1493;&#14 95;), as well as cognate words in various Semitic languages, including Arabic, also preserve meanings involving misc. air phenomena: "breath", "wind", and even "odour".[5][6][7])
Just to set some things straight.
neshama would be light/lively/g-d shining through, where ruah would have the ancient greek comparable meaning of lifespark/fire which makes us lively/enthousiastic that is also comparable to ancient sumerian depictions of a pregnant women as having fire in the womb, or ancient negev depictions along a similar thought of a man with fire above him that was the first presentation of YA.
Maat--Just to set some things straight.

HughBe-- a step in the right direction, Maat.
#47014 Jan 14, 2013
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
With all due respect rabbee, you are the only one here permanently in the present tense.
Keeps you young!
rabbee: nah! i am past tense, presently tense, and future tense. i was here all the other times, G-D gave this story, i am here in IT, and i shall be in it when G-D gives it again. the world keeps screwing it up, and i always have do do it again. i am going to have to do this again, with or without all of you and your grandmother of all. same as last time.
MUQ

Qatif, Saudi Arabia

#47015 Jan 14, 2013
Which “Sword” the Prophet Used against his enemies: Part-37

Enemies of Islam represent our prophet as a very cruel and blood thirsty man, who would kill his “opponents, enemies and any one who disagreed with him” at “the drop of hat” and all his adversaries would be “terrified” at the mere sight of him.

The picture is far from true, let us look at some incidents from the life of prophet, as what was “this sword which killed the enmity for ever”

The Case of : CAPTIVES OF HAWAZIN

This story also relates to the battle of HUNAIN, which we discussed above. The Tribe of HAWAZIN consisted of many sub clans, amongst which were Banu SAAD, who had given suckle to prophet when he was infant.

Prophet stayed for five to six years with these people during his infancy and his early childhood.

After battle was over, and enemy scattered, many captives were taken from the battle field along with many camels, sheep and goats etc.

Prophet waited for some days, for enemy tribes to come and talk to him about their animals and captives. When no one came he distributed them amongst Muslims.

HAWAZIN people came after some days and wanted the prophet to free their slaves….they selected a very eloquent person amongst them to present their case before prophet.

He said “O Mohammad amongst the captives and many of those who gave you suckle and their daughters and sisters, If we had given suckle to Kings of Yemen and HIRA, they would have treated us differently. Please have mercy on us and set them free…(and words of the same type”.

The prophet was moved on hearing this sermon and he asked Muslims to free their slaves without taking any thing from them. So many hundreds of slaves were set free on this command of prophet.

This was the “Sword of Mercy and Compassion” which prophet used to enslave people of HAWAZIN tribe for ever!

Source: Companions of Prophet: by Talib Hashmi
idgaf
#47016 Jan 14, 2013
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>'
oh that
<quoted text>
ahhhh....you are on to something
seriously - there are some amusing and/or interesting conversations to be had here, but sometime it takes a bit of winnowing....and perserverance...
and none of it has much to do with the topic in the narrow sense.
I've been amused, entertained and at times educated with the broad scope of topics most of which don't have much to do with the main topic. A silly question, some of these are interesting topics, why not give them their own forum? I'm sure many do not participate here cause they see the Messianic Jews blah blah and don't care about the topic. The cast of characters doesn't leave you wanting hehehhe.
JOEL

Mumbai, India

#47017 Jan 14, 2013
Time to go to the gym. Bye.

Since: Aug 11

Location hidden

#47019 Jan 14, 2013
Gtown71 wrote:
<quoted text>
3 men were traveling together, and wanted to save money, so the decided to stay in a motel room together.
They ask the motel clerk, how much are rooms.
The clerk said 30 dollars, so each man gives the clerk 10 dollars each.
Later the motel manager asked the clerk -have you sold any rooms? The clerk says yes, I sold 1 for 30 dollars.
The manager said, but rooms are only 25 dollars, so please take these 5 one's and give them back to the men.
On the way to the room, the clerk begin to think (the men don't know how much I am to give them, so the clerk takes 2 of the dollar bills, and puts them in his pocket. When he gets to the room, he explains how he overcharged the men, and handed each man back 1 dollar.
Now, instead of each man being out 10 dollars each for the room, they are only out 9 dollars each.
Yet 9 times 3 = 27 + the 2 dollars the clerk stoled only comes to 29, so what happened to the other dollar?
Mans ruler can be incorrect many times.
New homes are not as straight as you might think.
Yes -man can build some amazing things, and even more amazing to me, is how whatever you see -homes, buildings, cell phones, computers, anything. It all came out of the dirt.
Gods dirt.
The \$30 is accounted for. The hotel got \$25, the clerk takes \$2, and the men get a \$3 refund.

25+2+3 =30

If your point of this story is to show your inability to reason through a logic problem, you've succeeded ;-).

The points in my prior post stand.

“Where is Cookeville?”

Since: Dec 07

Cookeville

#47020 Jan 14, 2013
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really? It doesn't even end on the topix? Are debtor's prisons coming back, then? Some poor soul in Texas was thrown into prison last year over a \$2000 hospital bill. Do you really want to be part of the vanguard that begins this process anew? Find a new line of work, mate. First and last warning.
idgaf
#47021 Jan 14, 2013
I see truth and understanding of stories and philosophies that people have individually. I fail to see connections with God. I fail to see that although you are all very knowledgable about the early languages that one of you can make the connections with God. I do see a lot of knowledge or perceived knowledge.

I reiterate, why did God not reveal Himself to the American Indians (America being the new world)? There were also many others who didn't get the memo. Why? Why theJews? Why the Arabs? Why the Romans?

“Where is Cookeville?”

Since: Dec 07

Cookeville

#47022 Jan 14, 2013
MUQ wrote:
Which “Sword” the Prophet Used against his enemies: Part-37
Enemies of Islam represent our prophet as a very cruel and blood thirsty man,
I do no understand, Muq. your own reverred "Prophet" MARRIED an 8-year old child. He "thighed" her before-hand. He be-headed, crusaded, mauraded, and slaughtered two entire communities of Jews who had lived in Arabia for centuries, killed every nlast one of them. What are you defending against the "enemies of Islam," exactly? The right to maurade, crusade, sexually abuse children, and be-head constantly? You do not like Christians, and this is obvious, you would be very hard-pressed indeed to find ANYTHING recorded about Christ behaving in what would even remotely be considered an "unChristian" fashion. That is really the problem, when you get right down to it, for people like you who are fundamentally, well, "atheistic." Christ never killed, Christ never stoned, Christ never molested, Christ never raped or offerred captured women for rape, Christ never really had a problem with anybody, and He certainly didn't set out to intentionally hurt or wage war against anyone. Christ surrendered. Islam does not.
JOEL

Mumbai, India

#47024 Jan 14, 2013
Hi
idgaf
#47025 Jan 14, 2013
JOEL wrote:
Hi
Hi!!!!
MUQ

Qatif, Saudi Arabia

#47026 Jan 14, 2013
saviorself wrote:
<quoted text>
I do no understand, Muq. your own reverred "Prophet" MARRIED an 8-year old child. He "thighed" her before-hand. He be-headed, crusaded, mauraded, and slaughtered two entire communities of Jews who had lived in Arabia for centuries, killed every nlast one of them. What are you defending against the "enemies of Islam," exactly? The right to maurade, crusade, sexually abuse children, and be-head constantly? You do not like Christians, and this is obvious, you would be very hard-pressed indeed to find ANYTHING recorded about Christ behaving in what would even remotely be considered an "unChristian" fashion. That is really the problem, when you get right down to it, for people like you who are fundamentally, well, "atheistic." Christ never killed, Christ never stoned, Christ never molested, Christ never raped or offerred captured women for rape, Christ never really had a problem with anybody, and He certainly didn't set out to intentionally hurt or wage war against anyone. Christ surrendered. Islam does not.
How can you compare a "non Doer" with someone who "does things" (pardon me for using these words, because in Islam we do not pit one prophet against another and start rating them).

Jesus' mission was totally different from our Prophet's mission.

If you want to compare our prophet, then compare it against the life of Moses or David or some prophet, who got things done.

It is "very easy" to simply preach and go away....many "saints" do that....but to change the working system of world , you need people who look other people in the eyes and transform the things.

Our prophet did not only preach, he showed how these are to be implemented.

And that is WHY you people are so jealous of his achievements and try to quench the fire of jealousy and hatred by maligning his personality and character in any way you can.

But that will not change the FACTS. Our prophet has admirers amongst the very bests. In Encyclopaedia Britannica he is called as "Most Successful of all religious personalities"

Thomas Carlyle Chose our prophet as his "hero prophet" and not Jesus or Moses.

Michel H hart selected our prophet as # 1 in the list of "most influential persons that lived in history" and not Jesus or Moses.

I should take their words or words of some uncouth, bad smelling and black hearted person like you?
MUQ

Qatif, Saudi Arabia

#47032 Jan 15, 2013
MAAT wrote:
Just a general observation on the book of Margoliouth.

This professor combines all sources and translations available at that time. With new found texts of f.i. the gospel translated in khfic-syriac as a nabatean precursor of Arabic, we can even fill in some blanks, where the professor states he does not know.

Which latter statements shows his intellectual honesty when appraising Christianity and the notion of ordinary people being aware of books. His approach is to find rationales for the Islamic empire by the empire builder Mohammed.

So his interest is in the first place on the pre-Islamic days and mores followed by the earliest sources on Islam, history of the region, regal libraries and what is seen as authorities, still today.

So i notice that you manage to combine opposites. The mere fact that a much later authorities committee discarded texts does not mean that they not were original and depict truth as was.
I think you should take this approach while reading the book.

They as in the giants did the first thorough studies on the language and went to great ends to get it right.
Where for the believers and proponents of furthering islam these were matters that were not to be probed.
Historic research has always been about finding the exact events by stripping away legends, opportunism and wishfull embellishments.

I suggest you just read the book.
Ans.

I did read his book in the first place!!

And I did not just commented his "pygminess" based on any prejudice.

These people decide their "Mission" before even writing the book.

If they want to picture some one as "devil"….they first make a picture of "devil" in their mind.

Then they start "looking for evidence"…and they collect one piece from here and one piece from there (all from "Authentic Islamic Book" no doubt) and then piece together to complete their picture of Devil.!!

A person who does not have actual knowledge of his mission is impressed by his deep knowledge of Islamic books.

His books are full of contradictions….They "usually" start with what great man our prophet was, his sincerity his calmness, his determination, his steadfastness….all positive traits.

Then one by one he breaks all these qualities and present the prophet as a "forger" "A sooth sayer" "A crafty man" a "Cruel man, "A sex maniac"… what happened to the "positive traits shown earlier"? All vanished in thin air!!

With each episode , they offer different explanation of his character…. All contradictory with each other.

This is the attitude of all such Western Scholars who write about the life of our prophet from "Authoritative Islamic Sources".

And people who do not know Arabic language and not aware of Islamic way of analysis and criticism are "taken in" by their writers.

I can find excuses for people who have no knowledge and talk from what they read in the papers and media…. But no excuse for these "knowledgeable people" who try to Create Falsehood from the Truth.

These people are agents of Devil , if not the Devil in human forms!!

Judged:

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“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#47033 Jan 15, 2013
idgaf wrote:
<quoted text>
I've been amused, entertained and at times educated with the broad scope of topics most of which don't have much to do with the main topic. A silly question, some of these are interesting topics, why not give them their own forum? I'm sure many do not participate here cause they see the Messianic Jews blah blah and don't care about the topic. The cast of characters doesn't leave you wanting hehehhe.
They do get their own forum, but there are only so many participants, and when you dilute people among multiple threads, the threads die off too easily.

This forum is like a swingers party. Instead of sex, we have "intellectual" exchanges. Single partners, multiple partners, even if you dont like your partner you are likely back for more after other experiences.

Hows that for unflattering imagery?

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#47034 Jan 15, 2013
MUQ wrote:
<quoted text>
These people are agents of Devil , if not the Devil in human forms!!
Boo!

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#47035 Jan 15, 2013
MUQ wrote:
<quoted text>
Ans.
I did read his book in the first place!!
And I did not just commented his "pygminess" based on any prejudice.
These people decide their "Mission" before even writing the book.
If they want to picture some one as "devil"….they first make a picture of "devil" in their mind.
Then they start "looking for evidence"…and they collect one piece from here and one piece from there (all from "Authentic Islamic Book" no doubt) and then piece together to complete their picture of Devil.!!
A person who does not have actual knowledge of his mission is impressed by his deep knowledge of Islamic books.
His books are full of contradictions….They "usually" start with what great man our prophet was, his sincerity his calmness, his determination, his steadfastness….all positive traits.
Then one by one he breaks all these qualities and present the prophet as a "forger" "A sooth sayer" "A crafty man" a "Cruel man, "A sex maniac"… what happened to the "positive traits shown earlier"? All vanished in thin air!!
With each episode , they offer different explanation of his character…. All contradictory with each other.
This is the attitude of all such Western Scholars who write about the life of our prophet from "Authoritative Islamic Sources".
And people who do not know Arabic language and not aware of Islamic way of analysis and criticism are "taken in" by their writers.
I can find excuses for people who have no knowledge and talk from what they read in the papers and media…. But no excuse for these "knowledgeable people" who try to Create Falsehood from the Truth.
These people are agents of Devil , if not the Devil in human forms!!
You really dont think you dont do the same towards us?

Do you know the meaning of the term "Self reflection"?

“â€œYou must not lose faith ”

Since: Jun 11

Location hidden

#47037 Jan 15, 2013
MUQ wrote:
<quoted text>
Ans.
I did read his book in the first place!!
And I did not just commented his "pygminess" based on any prejudice.
These people decide their "Mission" before even writing the book.
If they want to picture some one as "devil"….they first make a picture of "devil" in their mind.
Then they start "looking for evidence"…and they collect one piece from here and one piece from there (all from "Authentic Islamic Book" no doubt) and then piece together to complete their picture of Devil.!!
A person who does not have actual knowledge of his mission is impressed by his deep knowledge of Islamic books.
His books are full of contradictions….They "usually" start with what great man our prophet was, his sincerity his calmness, his determination, his steadfastness….all positive traits.
Then one by one he breaks all these qualities and present the prophet as a "forger" "A sooth sayer" "A crafty man" a "Cruel man, "A sex maniac"… what happened to the "positive traits shown earlier"? All vanished in thin air!!
With each episode , they offer different explanation of his character…. All contradictory with each other.
This is the attitude of all such Western Scholars who write about the life of our prophet from "Authoritative Islamic Sources".
And people who do not know Arabic language and not aware of Islamic way of analysis and criticism are "taken in" by their writers.
I can find excuses for people who have no knowledge and talk from what they read in the papers and media…. But no excuse for these "knowledgeable people" who try to Create Falsehood from the Truth.
These people are agents of Devil , if not the Devil in human forms!!
OOOEEH an outright lie.
You did not read the book first.
I know you are familiar with f.i. Guilleaume since i quoted him extensively as well as some other more modern western writers. But if you are going to claim that the professor Margoliouth is all these people combined in one person we've stretched the byzantian to a kairoism.
So You are intimitely acquainted with all the people mentioned in the footnotes! That predate the western writers mentions by others in other threads.
Well that just can't be since a while back you never even heard of them.
(It's not that i can envisage you outguessing my next contribution and pre-read thus during my absesnse. Though you should be aware that i pick up on those little remarks like f.i. unfamiliarity or gross exagerations.)

It's only natural that the professor would point out that some behaviour would be consider contra western mores, though he frankly gave an example of a man living with the native americans and their alien ways, that serve however as an example of the way other cultures think and reason.

But i have not come upon any rant. Or outright polemics as you suggest.

So no MUQ you have not read the book.
Though i posted it so you could get familiar with a different approach. Alexander the Greats story is also not all roses and sunshine. Empire builders are usually not, but this book is about the conditions that enabled the man, a study as such.

“â€œYou must not lose faith ”

Since: Jun 11

Location hidden

#47038 Jan 15, 2013
As to the duality also found in the traditins on Mohammed...well isn't it said that this is explained as being to serve as an example to all man. So they can recognize themselves in his life and choose a better path.

At least i came across that apology.

It is the new fad to present the prophet as all good. That political correctness i spoke about before, that makes people change texts.

“â€œYou must not lose faith ”

Since: Jun 11

Location hidden

#47039 Jan 15, 2013
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
You really dont think you dont do the same towards us?
Do you know the meaning of the term "Self reflection"?
Interestingly some psychologists think that this is actually impossible.(Apart from a lot of processes that the mind has no control over. So even awareness, or 'I', or conscious would be a fiction.)
Only others can hold up the mirror to out wanton behaviours.
Even if we think about ourselves we can keep on doing that forever, but it would not change an iota, for it would still be the same conscious doing the thinking.
For innovation and creative change of behaviour you would frankly have to introduce a period of random behaviour.

And boy oh boy does that sound wrong here.
It's not as if we are lacking that.:))

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