The Truth About Israel/Palestine

The Truth About Israel/Palestine

Posted in the Batesville Forum

Dr goldballs

United States

#1 Nov 24, 2012
ISRAEL & CHRISTIAN ZIONISM: A LONG-TERM DISASTER FOR AMERICA

Safe to say, most residents of rural Arkansas have never met an Arab, and know very little about the Arab-Israeli conflict. I include among my friends and acquaintances a great many Arabs, mostly Palestinians but also Jordanians, Iraqis, Egyptians, and Bahrainis, plus a few non-Arab Middle Easterners such as Turks, Iranians, and Kurds. A few are like family.

Arabs view the American people’s general ignorance or outright denial of the truth about the Israelis’ actions over the last 65 years with dismay, alarm, hurt and outrage. They are especially dismayed by the Christian Zionist doctrine that is preached by many prominent evangelical Christians such as televangelists John Hagee, Pat Robertson, Rod Parsley, Franklin Graham, Hal Lindsey, and Richard Land. This doctrine is especially upsetting to the large minority of Arab Christians—people who trace their Christian heritage in an unbroken strand all the way back to the Apostles and Jesus himself. When one looks closely at what the expounders of Christian Zionism say, it is no wonder that non-Jewish Middle Eastern people, Christians among them, view it with abhorrence.

Many if not most American evangelical Christians assume that the present nation-state of Israel is the divinely restored Israel of biblical prophecy, and many have turned belief in that assumption into a requirement of Christian faith. Collateral to this is another scripturally inspired but mistaken notion that the present state of Israel’s borders are divinely ordained to encompass all the land that God promised to the descendants of Abraham in Genesis 15:18,“From the river of Egypt as far as the great river, the River Euphrates.” At its broadest interpretation, those boundaries would take in not only pre-1967 Israel, the West Bank and Gaza, but also all of Jordan, all of Lebanon, the Sinai Peninsula, Egypt east of the Nile River, the large portions of Syria and Iraq west of the Euphrates River, the Arabian Peninsula, and a sizable chunk of southeastern Turkey. It could conceivably even include the African nation of Eritrea and those parts of Sudan and Ethiopia east of the Nile. Zealots declare that no people except the Jews have any right to possess or live in even one square inch of this vast territory. They are of the opinion that all the land within those boundaries belongs to the Jews, and that Israel has a God-given right to take it from its non-Jewish inhabitants by force.

However, if you look at the scripture, it is quite clear that God’s promise was to all the descendants of Abraham, not just to the descendants of his second-born son Isaac. And the Arabs, I remind you, are descendants of Abraham through his first-born son Ishmael. Even if one discounts Ishmael as illegitimate as John Hagee has gone to great lengths to do, the inescapable fact remains that Abraham had other legitimate sons in addition to Isaac. After Sarah’s death, Abraham married a woman named Keturah and fathered six sons with her (Gen 25:1). These became the progenitors of Middle Eastern peoples that over the centuries were assimilated into the larger “Arab” category.

The fear-mongering apocalyptic preaching of self-proclaimed prophets of the End Times such as Hagee and the many thousands of church pastors who follow their lead is destructive and dangerous. Christians who adhere to this doctrine, by their self-identification with and political activism on behalf of the Jewish state that has dispossessed, robbed, and systematically abused the Palestinians for over sixty years, are contributing substantially to the undercutting of America’s once-exemplary moral standing in the world.
College Guy

United States

#2 Nov 24, 2012
My freshman year of college I had the honor of becoming friends with a Muslim from Saudi Arabia and with a Jew from Israel.

My Arabic friend told me of the horrors of Islamic law and how terribly they treat women. I have no love for any of the Radical Islamic Governments and it would make me very happy to see each and every one of their governments overthrown and true Democracys put into place. Sadly the majority of the Muslims aren't like my friend and are very uneducated. They vote tyrants into office and it's such a sad way of life.

The government of Palistine is often considered to be composed of Islamic Radicals. That's a bad thing. They deny human rights and their form of government is something I strongly stand against.

When it comes to a war I support the side that stands the most for Freedom. Israel isn't perfect and has many issues, but their government treats its citizens far better than that of Palistine. Therefore I support Israel in the war.

When it comes to conflict, always support the government that stands for freedom. Always stand against those who are against human rights.
Guest

Lake City, AR

#3 Nov 25, 2012
elistico nonvaulum .

Level 6

Since: Jun 12

Location hidden

#4 Nov 29, 2012
They don't want peace over there, that is the problem.

“CO2 is Gaseous Love”

Level 10

Since: Dec 08

Home, sweet home.

#5 Nov 29, 2012
History shows one side of the conflict makes peace proposals, gives up land, gives compromise and doesn't vilify legitimate political opponents. I've visited Israel, if you look at how the state of Israel and the Palestinian territories are managed, the difference is clear.

The desire to kill Jews and destroy Israel drives the conflict. Israel is hated because Israel is free. People can live without religious oppression in Israel. No wonder states like Iran want to destroy the Jews.

Don't blame your problems on others; fix the problem. Stand behind Israel's right to exist, just as you stand behind your country's and personal right to survival.

Level 6

Since: Jun 12

Location hidden

#6 Nov 30, 2012
They need to change those towels on their heads.
HaDovGadol

Shelbyville, IL

#8 Dec 7, 2012
Dr goldballs wrote:
...if you look at the scripture, it is quite clear that God’s promise was to all the descendants of Abraham...
G-d promised Avram/Avraham that his descendants would be more numerous than the "sands of the sea"; however, G-d's covenant was made through Israel/Jacob, and not through Ishmael or Esau or anyone else.

I suggest you actually go and study before spouting off with half-truths, of which you know precisely dick.

You aren't half as bright as you'd like everyone to think.

Erev tov.
VoReason

United States

#9 Jan 31, 2013
Israel has stolen Palestine, they have killed innocent children and it is absolute insanity! As an American revert Muslim i find it a disgrace to know people who claim to love and respect God, all mighty Allah fight over something as meaningless as a piece of land. I could ramble on about American ways and the culture as well as Arab ways and culture but what fools don't realize is that Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world. the largest population of Muslims living in India which ISN'T an Arab country!!! The hatred, Christians and Jews spread in American media is an injustice for the religion of peace. As Americans you show learn facts and know the difference between religion and culture...that's all i am saying! What has happened to Palestine is evil!
guest

Austin, TX

#11 Jan 31, 2013
You make no sense seriously read what you have written before posting. Of coarse you would make this about Jesus typical ignorance from you. Christians are the most obnoxious of the religions, always passing judgement, always trying to force their religion. I think you are the radical

“CO2 is Gaseous Love”

Level 10

Since: Dec 08

Home, sweet home.

#12 Feb 1, 2013
VoReason wrote:
Israel has stolen Palestine, they have killed innocent children and it is absolute insanity! As an American revert Muslim i find it a disgrace to know people who claim to love and respect God, all mighty Allah fight over something as meaningless as a piece of land. I could ramble on about American ways and the culture as well as Arab ways and culture but what fools don't realize is that Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world. the largest population of Muslims living in India which ISN'T an Arab country!!! The hatred, Christians and Jews spread in American media is an injustice for the religion of peace. As Americans you show learn facts and know the difference between religion and culture...that's all i am saying! What has happened to Palestine is evil!
Palestine lost a war, and none of their Arab neighbors offered them citizenship. It's a shame some Palestinians were disenfranchised but all borders are drawn in blood. Maybe next time, they could pick the winning country.

All nations defend their borders; when Tibetan Buddhists were disenfranchised by China; they didn't set off suicide bombs. At worst, they set themselves on fire. There's a large difference between a Religion that tolerates self-immolation and a religion that tolerates terrorism.
College Guy

United States

#13 Feb 1, 2013
Although I don't always agree with everything they do, I proudly stand by Israel. Islamic Law is everything I stand against. We have to keep religion out of governments for the betterment of mankind. I'd rather have communist countries in the middle east than nations with Islamic law.
College Guy

United States

#14 Feb 1, 2013
I may be biased though because I have a dear friend of mine that's a Jew from Israel.
Grammar

Mountain Home, AR

#15 Feb 1, 2013
guest wrote:
You make no sense seriously read what you have written before posting. Of coarse you would make this about Jesus typical ignorance from you. Christians are the most obnoxious of the religions, always passing judgement, always trying to force their religion. I think you are the radical
Yeah and muslims are so open and tolerant to other religions. Ever spent any time in Iran, Saudi Arabia, Libya? Doubt it or you wouldn't talk about how intolerent Christians are. They are not perfect but a world better than muslim faith.
VoReason

Dallas, TX

#16 Feb 1, 2013
@guess...funny how you assume i am from another country, so let me clarify something....i am American born and southern raised. I discovered Islam almost 10 yrs ago and have been practicing it for almost 3 yrs. So now that we have that clear....you need not be so ignorant to think Americans and or Christians DON'T blow themselves up. There are so called Christians that blow up and shoot innocent people everyday going into abortion clinics. Did you ever hear of Waco, TX? How about Timothy McVey? Please, open your shallow mind and realize that you show never judge a whole by a few....i was raised Christian and converted to Islam. Don't judge my religion until you have picked up a Quran, read it and can with knowledge tell me i or the other millions of people that convert every yr are wrong! I don't judge Christians and YES Muslim people believe in Jesus, we just don't believe he is the son of God or died for our sins....so when you can say something with an open mind and knowledge of my religion NOT what the America media tells you we will talk...

“CO2 is Gaseous Love”

Level 10

Since: Dec 08

Home, sweet home.

#17 Feb 2, 2013
VoReason wrote:
@guess...funny how you assume i am from another country, so let me clarify something....i am American born and southern raised. I discovered Islam almost 10 yrs ago and have been practicing it for almost 3 yrs.
Good for you! America stands for freedom of religioni.

.
VoReason wrote:
So now that we have that clear....you need not be so ignorant to think Americans and or Christians DON'T blow themselves up.
They don't, and you can't cite them either. America is fierce at war, and we blow up our enemies. Sometimes our enemies hide behind women and children; Americans still blow them up. It's a practice thing.

Christians don't preach blowing anybody up. They've stopped burning witches at the stake, too. They stand against suicide, especially murder bombings where the sinner wears and explosive vest.

.
VoReason wrote:
There are so called Christians that blow up and shoot innocent people everyday going into abortion clinics.
Please cite. I follow the news, and I missed that story today, this week, month, year and decade. WTF? Christians don't kill abortionists. That's insane.

Millions of abortions are performed every year. Millions of unborn babies are murdered.

.
VoReason wrote:
Did you ever hear of Waco, TX?
Did you ever here of Janet Reno? She was the Attorney General in charge of that piece of arson. It had nothing to do with Christianity or good police work.

.
VoReason wrote:
How about Timothy McVey?
He wasn't a Christian, and not a good American. He was a mass murder; even so, he didn't blow himself up. He was executed by lethal injection on June 11th, 2001, in Terra Haute, Indiana.

Before that, he was on the same cellblock as Ramzi Yousef, did you know he tried to convert McVey to Islam by telling him to read the Koran?

.
VoReason wrote:
Please, open your shallow mind and realize that you show never judge a whole by a few....
Or the one.

So what are you doing calling America and Christians, suicide bombers?

.
VoReason wrote:
i was raised Christian and converted to Islam. Don't judge my religion until
You see how people practice it. I judge politics and religion by people's behavior.

.
VoReason wrote:
you have picked up a Quran, read it and can with knowledge tell me i or the other millions of people that convert every yr are wrong!
I recommend you don't; don't read the Koran. I know people who have gotten carried away by that book, I've looked at it myself. I recommend you don't read it because you might want to convert to Islam. Then again, you might read it and not want to convert to Islam.

In any case, the Koran is poorly organized, from short verse to long. It isn't ordered chronologically, so it make no sense as moral or narrative.

.
VoReason wrote:
I don't judge Christians and YES Muslim people believe in Jesus, we just don't believe he is the son of God or died for our sins....
Yet you write: "There are so called Christians that blow up and shoot innocent people everyday", that's some non-judgement. Maybe, you don't judge Christians any differently than you want them to judge you?

.
VoReason wrote:
so when you can say something with an open mind and knowledge of my religion NOT what the America media tells you we will talk...
Your religion is the American media; why not talk now? I don't care about your religion, I care about not advocating murder, genocide and religious war.

I've been to Israel, seen Palestine and visited many Muslim majority countries; Israel is the best. Israel has the most freedom, justice and equality. You can't buy a newspaper in some of the Muslim countries I've visited, you sure can't buy a Playboy magazine.
interested

Dallas, TX

#18 Feb 2, 2013
Oh Brian G how you so elegantly attempt to divide and conquer, nice try...you believe what you want and there are ignorant people to lazy to seek the truth that will agree with you. You too are a fool if you don't think there is good and evil throughout the world. Religion, place of birth nor skin color has anything to do with it. There are people everywhere that comment crimes against human rights. VofReason i am guessing has read the Quran due to the fact he or she said Islam is his or her religion. Unless, you assume a person can called him or herself a Muslim without reading the Quran afterall, isn't that what Americans do? Call themselves Christians without ever reading a Bible or walking into a church. I am not speaking ill of the many men and women that do seek the knowledge of Gods word....no matter what religion they seek it under. You are a fool though if you think all Muslim people want to or practice killing innocent people. I don't believe any word/book of God promotes that....

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