Colossians 2:12 - The baptism with th...

Since: Jun 11

Location hidden

#41 Oct 20, 2013
Mike Peterson wrote:
xxx: "Paul tells Timothy to preach the OT. Without those NT commentaries on the old, one would never link Noah’s water to baptism. In other words, no one would get baptism out of that by just listening to what Paul told Timothy to preach."
No it doesn't. Yes is does. Not it doesn't. Yes it does.
I am right and you are wrong. 40,000 variations.
I see someone has disagreed with you. Prots always get pissed when you point this out.
xxx

Nashville, TN

#42 Oct 20, 2013
Dave P wrote:
The same holds true for the scriptures that existed in the first century. Certainly the NT scriptures existed, but the scripture Paul tells Timothy to preach from is the scripture with which he (Timothy) grew up with—the OT.
Paul doesn’t tell Timothy to consult the oral tradition. He tells him to consult the scriptures. You’re wading into Catholic waters with this argument.
*Paragraph one- you killed your beginning argument by agreeing that NT scriptures did exist when Paul wrote to Timothy. Two, you're sounding very church of Christ-ish by stating that Paul is telling Timothy to preach from the OT. Is he authorized to preach from any NT scripture, letters Paul wrote? Is he not allowed to quote Peter or any other apostle or brother he has heard?
*Two- Paul indeed wrote about written epistles and oral tradition in 2 Thessalonians 2. Deny this? Disagree? Again, very coc-ish. Is Timothy denied using "oral tradition" ever since Paul specified SCRIPTURES known since childhood? Why then would he say this in the same letter?
"And the things which you have HEARD FROM ME AMONG MANY WITNESSES, commit these to faithful men who will be able to teach others also". Think he only heard OT quotes from Paul?
I killed nothing. I never said the NT did not exist when Pail wrote to Timothy. I never said Timothy was not allowed to preach from the NT either. I said Paul told Timothy to preach the OT. By doing this Paul tells Timothy that the OT is on par with the NT. There is no conflict between the two because both teach the same path to salvation. The argument put forth that says that the OT way of salvation is archaic is annihilated by Paul’s commentary regarding it in II Timothy 3:14-15.
xxx

Nashville, TN

#43 Oct 20, 2013
Dave P wrote:
Exactly! If baptism in type is not equivalent to baptism in reality, then we can’t say that baptism is in the OT. Being there in type does not count as being there in reality.
The cross is in the OT as a type. Christ is in the OT in types. Logically using your theory here, neither the cross nor Christ is in the OT. Buffoonery.
Jesus is not in the OT merely as a type; He is there as reality too.

Have you ever wondered why Genesis 1:26 is plural? That’s Jesus.
Do you know what God preached to Abraham? Jesus (Galatians 3:8).

Have you ever wondered why Isaiah says in Isaiah 53 that “with his stripes we ARE healed”? That’s Jesus.

Do you know what was preached to and saved the Israelites in the wilderness? That would be Jesus(I Corinthians 10:1-4).

Maybe those in the OT did not know HOW, WHEN or the DETAILS of how God would redeem them, but God told them He would do so and they believed Him. That’s how those in the OT were saved. By Jesus. Not just in type, but in reality too.
xxx

Nashville, TN

#44 Oct 20, 2013
Dave P wrote:
xxx- You’re overstating the importance of this. What we call Christianity is divided by one issue: baptism.
You have your water-based denominations (Catholic, Church of Christ, Eastern Orthodox, etc.) and you have your blood-based denominations (Baptist, Methodist, Church of God, etc.).
For the most part the blood-based denominations disagree on relatively minor things. In fact it’s not unheard of for the blood-based denominations to hold joint services with other blood-based denominations.
Your water-based denominations on the other hand each claim to have a monopoly on God and His salvation, claim to be the “one true Church” and hold all others with contempt as being apostate.
The dogmatism and division lie on the side of the water-based denominations, not the blood-based ones.
Dave- I am sorry, but your assumptions are wrong on this as well. "The blood based denominations disagree over minor things". Joint services. Just this week alone, I have talked to those who are Baptists, that condemn and deny fellow baptists over OSAS. They will not have services with each other; they think each other is lost. The Baptist groups may be the most divided and segregated religious group in America.
Many Baptists say "we are the one true church". All others are wrong. Don't get them started on Calvinists! And don't get many hardline Calvinists started on Armenians! Apostates and false teachers all!
One true church groups and ideas are in EVERY group. Two of the 3 Restoration Movement groups- Disciples of Christ and Christian Churches- deny the "one true church" belief. Hardline coc agree. Many Baptist groups truly are the "one true church" according to them. Fundamentalist Baptists think people who use Bibles other than KJV are going to hell.
Baptism is one of MANY items that divide modern "Christianity". The very terms you use- water based verses blood based- rings of partisan bickering and affiliations. You almost forgot pentecostals- Spirit based denomination perhaps? Some even throw evangelicalism under the bus, stating they want the faith but not the stigma that comes with being a "fundie".
Dogmatism and division comes from and rests on all sides. No different than Washington politicians- for the most part, they all stink, regardless of party.
I never said the water-based denominations had a monopoly on insanity or dogmatism (Wesboro?).

Joint services may be rare but they do occur. Have you ever been a part of a joint service with a Catholic church? Why not?

Yes, the term “water-based” is a symptom of my own dogmatism. Here’s the thing: my dogmatism is not due to ignorance but rather knowledge. It comes from 3+ years of studying the doctrine of the CoC denomination. I used to view the CoC with no more contempt than I did the Methodists or any other group. But when people tell me that neither of my baptisms counted even though I thought I was getting saved in the first one, I have a problem with that. When peoples’ FB status’s deal more with the “Hell-bound denoms” than they do about God’s grace or love, I have a problem with that. When people tell me I’m going to Hell because the sign where I go to church says “Baptist” on it, I have a problem with that.

The term “water-based” gives them a dose of their own medicine, and I will not apologize for it.

Yes, dogmatism exists on both sides, but it is a more prevalent problem among the water-based denominations than the blood-based ones. Example: I have NEVER heard the word “Campbellite” mentioned in a sermon let alone be the ENTIRE basis of it. Can you say the same thing about the word “denominationalism”?

I honestly can’t believe you even chimed in on this one.

Let’s not forget that the only reason any of us who live outside of Virginia are on this site is because Martinsville has a self-appointed CoC version of a Grand Ayatollah going into other churches with cameras and microphones Dateline-style.
xxx

Nashville, TN

#45 Oct 20, 2013
MarkEden wrote:
<quoted text>
I see someone has disagreed with you. Prots always get pissed when you point this out.
I’m not pissed. I’m not even shaken either because neither of you have said anything even halfway profound.
Dave P

Dahlonega, GA

#46 Oct 20, 2013
xxx wrote:
<quoted text>
I killed nothing. I never said the NT did not exist when Pail wrote to Timothy. I never said Timothy was not allowed to preach from the NT either. I said Paul told Timothy to preach the OT. By doing this Paul tells Timothy that the OT is on par with the NT. There is no conflict between the two because both teach the same path to salvation. The argument put forth that says that the OT way of salvation is archaic is annihilated by Paul’s commentary regarding it in II Timothy 3:14-15.
So you're an OT Christian? Living under the old covenant?
How can Paul tell Timothy the NT is on par with the OT when the NT does not exist, and both are misnomers anyway? You been buying some of BW's arguments?
Ever hear "the sum of Thy word is truth"? No additional light given by the NT scripture? And not stretching 2 Timothy beyond what it actually says are you? Paul is simply stating the value of the scripture. Anything beyond that is reading in what we want it to say.
Dave P

Dahlonega, GA

#47 Oct 20, 2013
xxx wrote:
<quoted text>
Jesus is not in the OT merely as a type; He is there as reality too.
Have you ever wondered why Genesis 1:26 is plural? That’s Jesus.
Do you know what God preached to Abraham? Jesus (Galatians 3:8).
Have you ever wondered why Isaiah says in Isaiah 53 that “with his stripes we ARE healed”? That’s Jesus.
Do you know what was preached to and saved the Israelites in the wilderness? That would be Jesus(I Corinthians 10:1-4).
Maybe those in the OT did not know HOW, WHEN or the DETAILS of how God would redeem them, but God told them He would do so and they believed Him. That’s how those in the OT were saved. By Jesus. Not just in type, but in reality too.
Then when He really got here, He gave us continued revelation to explain the way of God more fully. Thus both OT saints and believers today are saved the same way, although the terms of the new covenant may be changed. There was no forgiveness of sin under the old covenant, and man did not have the indwelling Spirit under the old. The old was not sufficient.
Dave P

Dahlonega, GA

#48 Oct 20, 2013
I never said the water-based denominations had a monopoly on insanity or dogmatism (Wesboro?).

Joint services may be rare but they do occur. Have you ever been a part of a joint service with a Catholic church? Why not?

Every group has dogmatic sides in it. Joint services are rare- and why? Because almost everyone has a "one true church" complex within it.

PS- very few Catholic churches here, but the local Presbyterians, DOC, and even Baptists engage them in some joint services. I work second shift- no time to engage in their services, I'm at work.

Since: Sep 13

Location hidden

#49 Oct 20, 2013
xxx wrote:
<quoted text>
I’m not pissed. I’m not even shaken either because neither of you have said anything even halfway profound.
I know I haven't said anything new. Just repeating what the Apostles taught the Church 2000 years ago. There is nothing new in the areas of faith and morals.

Only Protestants think they came come up with something profound after 2000 years. They are only profound in their own minds.

What arrogance they have when they think they discover something new and profound.

Show me one person who thought like you do between AD 100 and AD 1700.
Dave P

Dahlonega, GA

#50 Oct 20, 2013
Yes, the term “water-based” is a symptom of my own dogmatism. Here’s the thing: my dogmatism is not due to ignorance but rather knowledge. It comes from 3+ years of studying the doctrine of the CoC denomination. I used to view the CoC with no more contempt than I did the Methodists or any other group. But when people tell me that neither of my baptisms counted even though I thought I was getting saved in the first one, I have a problem with that. When peoples’ FB status’s deal more with the “Hell-bound denoms” than they do about God’s grace or love, I have a problem with that. When people tell me I’m going to Hell because the sign where I go to church says “Baptist” on it, I have a problem with that.

The term “water-based” gives them a dose of their own medicine, and I will not apologize for it.

*First off, I understand your frustration with such ideas. I used to hold those attitudes you bring out. But know this- I no longer hold those views, and most coc in this area do not either. The hardline coc around Martinsville, Texas and other places do. Those attitudes are exactly why I rejected the old hardline coc doctrines. I no longer believe people are going to hell for going to a "denominational" church. Or that their baptisms aren't valid because of who done it, where it was done, etc.

The problem here is this- we have name called so long- then awful denoms, holy rollers, campbellites or water dogs- that many of us have got very defensive. I don't want you to apologize for "water-based groups", nor do you need to. If we are in Christ we are united. If we are in Christ we are brothers. Is it any wonder the catholics make fun of us, or the world rejects us? We all reject each other.

Myself, I have laid the hatchet down. I hope you can too, with those of the same spirit. We can and will disagree- but who doesn't?

Since: Sep 13

Location hidden

#51 Oct 20, 2013
Dave P wrote:
I never said the water-based denominations had a monopoly on insanity or dogmatism (Wesboro?).
Joint services may be rare but they do occur. Have you ever been a part of a joint service with a Catholic church? Why not?
Every group has dogmatic sides in it. Joint services are rare- and why? Because almost everyone has a "one true church" complex within it.
PS- very few Catholic churches here, but the local Presbyterians, DOC, and even Baptists engage them in some joint services. I work second shift- no time to engage in their services, I'm at work.
There is no such thing as a joint service in a Catholic Church. Everyone is encouraged to attend Mass at any Parish though.

I have been to ecumenical prayer meetings. Kumbaya.
Dave P

Dahlonega, GA

#52 Oct 20, 2013
xxx- It comes from 3+ years of studying the doctrine of the CoC denomination.

Dave- I was raised in it. Imagine coming out of something you've known your whole life. That's my story. Then imagine trying to bring congregations out of decades of coc doctrine.

xxx-Yes, dogmatism exists on both sides, but it is a more prevalent problem among the water-based denominations than the blood-based ones. Example: I have NEVER heard the word “Campbellite” mentioned in a sermon let alone be the ENTIRE basis of it. Can you say the same thing about the word “denominationalism”?

I honestly can’t believe you even chimed in on this one.

Dave- no I have never heard a sermon based on Campbellites. Denominationalism- yes. Have you heard of the Duck Dynasty guys? Right now many Baptists are up in arms over them- they're coc. My friend at work was told he could never join the baptist church until he agreed to OSAS, although he doesn't believe it. That same church rejected a fellow baptist church over the same issue.

The reason I chimed in on this is because this nonsense needs to stop. Even the Campbells would not be welcome in the coc today- too "liberal". Most regard them as lost, most others ignore them entirely, like the coc on here. Those guys thought there were Christians in every group.

xxx-Let’s not forget that the only reason any of us who live outside of Virginia are on this site is because Martinsville has a self-appointed CoC version of a Grand Ayatollah going into other churches with cameras and microphones Dateline-style.

Dave- correct. And that grand ayatollah has turned many people off. I don't buy JR's version of the doctrine. People out there need to know there are coc people out there who don't think, act, or teach the same things as the Ayatollah of rock and rolla.
Dave P

Dahlonega, GA

#53 Oct 20, 2013
Mike_Peterson wrote:
<quoted text>
There is no such thing as a joint service in a Catholic Church. Everyone is encouraged to attend Mass at any Parish though.
I have been to ecumenical prayer meetings. Kumbaya.
These are special service during the Lent and Passion season. Joint speaking and prayer services at the RCC, Presbyterian, Baptist, DOC and Episcopal churches.

Since: Jun 11

Location hidden

#54 Oct 20, 2013
Dave P wrote:
<quoted text>
These are special service during the Lent and Passion season. Joint speaking and prayer services at the RCC, Presbyterian, Baptist, DOC and Episcopal churches.
Interdenominational "special services" have no legitimate liturgical function in the Roman Catholic Church. The order of service would be a concocted amalgam of Kumbaya feel good ecumenism which cannot be found in the Roman Missal. I have participated in Passion Sunday processions with Lutherans and Anglicans. At the end each group went their separate ways. Baptists would not even know what the hell Passion Sunday is.

Since: Jun 11

Location hidden

#55 Oct 20, 2013
Dave P wrote:
xxx- It comes from 3+ years of studying the doctrine of the CoC denomination.
Dave- I was raised in it. Imagine coming out of something you've known your whole life. That's my story. Then imagine trying to bring congregations out of decades of coc doctrine.
xxx-Yes, dogmatism exists on both sides, but it is a more prevalent problem among the water-based denominations than the blood-based ones. Example: I have NEVER heard the word “Campbellite” mentioned in a sermon let alone be the ENTIRE basis of it. Can you say the same thing about the word “denominationalism”?
I honestly can’t believe you even chimed in on this one.
Dave- no I have never heard a sermon based on Campbellites. Denominationalism- yes. Have you heard of the Duck Dynasty guys? Right now many Baptists are up in arms over them- they're coc. My friend at work was told he could never join the baptist church until he agreed to OSAS, although he doesn't believe it. That same church rejected a fellow baptist church over the same issue.
The reason I chimed in on this is because this nonsense needs to stop. Even the Campbells would not be welcome in the coc today- too "liberal". Most regard them as lost, most others ignore them entirely, like the coc on here. Those guys thought there were Christians in every group.
xxx-Let’s not forget that the only reason any of us who live outside of Virginia are on this site is because Martinsville has a self-appointed CoC version of a Grand Ayatollah going into other churches with cameras and microphones Dateline-style.
Dave- correct. And that grand ayatollah has turned many people off. I don't buy JR's version of the doctrine. People out there need to know there are coc people out there who don't think, act, or teach the same things as the Ayatollah of rock and rolla.
Personally I think all of you outside the Martinsville area should take care of your own backyard and eff off.

Since: Jun 11

Location hidden

#56 Oct 20, 2013
Mike_Peterson wrote:
<quoted text>
There is no such thing as a joint service in a Catholic Church. Everyone is encouraged to attend Mass at any Parish though.
I have been to ecumenical prayer meetings. Kumbaya.
I will not set foot in a low end prot church...not even for a wedding, funeral or concert. I will never again attend a low end prot graveside service.
Dave P

Morehead, KY

#57 Oct 20, 2013
MarkEden wrote:
<quoted text>
Personally I think all of you outside the Martinsville area should take care of your own backyard and eff off.
All the people in my area on topix want to talk about is obama, drugs, and the personal lives of the ones working in the local gas station. This is a lot more fun.

Since: Sep 13

Location hidden

#58 Oct 21, 2013
MarkEden wrote:
<quoted text>
Personally I think all of you outside the Martinsville area should take care of your own backyard and eff off.
But XXX is so profound in his statements.
xxx

Nashville, TN

#59 Oct 21, 2013
Mike_Peterson wrote:
<quoted text> Show me one person who thought like you do between AD 100 and AD 1700.
Sure: Josephus

“Now some of the Jews thought that the destruction of Herod's army came from God, and was a very just punishment for what he did against John called the baptist [the dipper]. For Herod had him killed, although he was a good man and had urged the Jews to exert themselves to virtue, both as to justice toward one another and reverence towards God, and having done so join together in washing. For immersion in water, it was clear to him, could NOT be used for the forgiveness of sins, but as a sanctification of the body, and ONLY if the soul was ALREADY thoroughly purified by right actions.”-Antiquities of the Jews 18.5.2 116-119 (emphasis added)
xxx

Nashville, TN

#60 Oct 21, 2013
Mike_Peterson wrote:
<quoted text>
But XXX is so profound in his statements.
Thanks for the endorsement!

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