William

Opelika, AL

#122 May 5, 2013
And it looks like it is still a mystery.
Dave P

Morehead, KY

#123 May 5, 2013
I can go with the word revealed. The Father revealed to Peter that he was the Messiah. It was revealed only to Peter. Jesus said that.

"Blessed are you, Simon BarJonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven". Many people had that revelation in those days. This was not revealed only to Peter-as he said in John 6:69, "Also WE have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God".

Mike, you ridicule "sola scriptura", but the lack of real scriptural teaching from the CC is very apparent. You are much better off reading and thinking for yourself, rather than being a sheep led to slaughter.
Dave P

Morehead, KY

#124 May 5, 2013
William, it's not that hard to read Paul state in Ephesians that the mystery was revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets.

I do have something for you to think about William. The pharisees were in trouble in Matthew 15 for elevating tradition over scripture, and allowing tradition to cancel out the commands of God. In your two gospel theory, you claim that water baptism is no longer necessary in this day and age. If you are incorrect in your view,you do realize that you are making a command of God of no effect by your tradition? I know of no one else who believes baptism is unnecessary today. We have different opinions of why it is needed, but we believe it is something to be obeyed.

Your beliefs negate that. Any thoughts?
Dave P

Morehead, KY

#125 May 5, 2013
In fact, a whole discussion of catholicism would be fitting in the "traditions of men" thread.

Ephesians 4:11 tells us who has authority in the church, delegated from Christ Himself. Pope ain't one of them.

"Sola scriptura" gets ridiculed, but you cannot have a Biblical discussion with persons who have to rely on someone else telling them what the "truth" is. When the word of God has no authority, but the organization does, one is in deep trouble indeed.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#126 May 5, 2013
Mike Peterson wrote:
<quoted text>
I said of the 12, the Father only "spoke" to Peter. Jesus said that he did.
You may have misunderstood the Catholics you know and they don't know what they are talking about.
The Pope does have authority of matters relating to faith and morals among men.
If you and your fellow Christian disagree, eventually you have to take it to the Church. Who would you take it to?
You can find the truth free online. The CCC.
When was the last word of Scripture given? My point is that the pope is just another man and has no more power available to him from God than is available to any believer. Also he cannot and does not write new scripture. The pope is not an apostle.

The pope is not infallible. Peter nowhere claims supremacy over the other apostles Nowhere in his writings (1 and 2 Peter) did the Apostle Peter claim any special role, authority, or power over the church. Nowhere in Scripture does Peter, or any other apostle, state that their apostolic authority would be passed on to successors.
William

Opelika, AL

#127 May 5, 2013
Water baptism is not "required" for salvation and there is no "salvation formula" as put forth by the various and sundry religions.

Trusting that Christ died for your sins, was buried, and resurrected for your justification will result in you being sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption, just like those heathen Ephesian gentiles that Paul wrote that letter to. And they had no Catholic church around either.

Thank God.
William

Opelika, AL

#128 May 5, 2013
Paul sorta cut out all the religious tom-foolery with his gospel. He calls it "MY gospel" three times in his epistles. Says that God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to it.

What is his gospel?

1 Corinthians 15:1-4
William

Opelika, AL

#129 May 5, 2013
Dave, at the time when Peter and Paul were both alive, there were two gospels.

There is only one gospel today, and that is the gospel of the grace of God, which was given to Paul. It was not given to Peter, who preached the gospel of the kingdom.
No one can be saved today by following what Peter preached. No one.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

#130 May 5, 2013
All of the apostles in the bible were selected by Jesus and no where does Jesus say he will select new apostles. All of the popes in the catholic church are selected by other men.
Dave P

Morehead, KY

#131 May 5, 2013
William wrote:
Water baptism is not "required" for salvation and there is no "salvation formula" as put forth by the various and sundry religions.
Trusting that Christ died for your sins, was buried, and resurrected for your justification will result in you being sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption, just like those heathen Ephesian gentiles that Paul wrote that letter to. And they had no Catholic church around either.
Thank God.
I said that people disagreed on the purpose of water baptism. But that almost everyone still believes it is a necessary thing to be done, regardless if it is for salvation or not. Example-Bobby believes baptism should be obeyed, but not in order to be saved. It is still commanded by Christ. Those heathen Ephesian gentiles would have been baptized. Yet you say no need whatsoever-but the Scripture says otherwise. Are you negating the commandments of God by your beliefs and tradition?
Dave P

Morehead, KY

#132 May 5, 2013
William wrote:
Dave, at the time when Peter and Paul were both alive, there were two gospels.
There is only one gospel today, and that is the gospel of the grace of God, which was given to Paul. It was not given to Peter, who preached the gospel of the kingdom.
No one can be saved today by following what Peter preached. No one.
I respectfully disagree 1000% with your entire statement here. Nothing at all I agree with. I believe this flies in the face of scripture.
Dave P

Morehead, KY

#133 May 5, 2013
William wrote:
Dave, at the time when Peter and Paul were both alive, there were two gospels.
There is only one gospel today, and that is the gospel of the grace of God, which was given to Paul. It was not given to Peter, who preached the gospel of the kingdom.
No one can be saved today by following what Peter preached. No one.
Just what do you believe the kingdom is?
Mike Peterson

Jackson, MS

#134 May 5, 2013
William wrote:
Dave, at the time when Peter and Paul were both alive, there were two gospels.
There is only one gospel today, and that is the gospel of the grace of God, which was given to Paul. It was not given to Peter, who preached the gospel of the kingdom.
No one can be saved today by following what Peter preached. No one.
Paul didn't write a Gospel.
Mike Peterson

Jackson, MS

#135 May 5, 2013
Bobby wrote:
All of the apostles in the bible were selected by Jesus and no where does Jesus say he will select new apostles. All of the popes in the catholic church are selected by other men.
Immediately after Jesus ascended the succession started by replacing Judas.

Acts 1:15-26 - the first thing Peter does after Jesus ascends into heaven is implement apostolic succession. Matthias is ordained with full apostolic authority. Only the Catholic Church can demonstrate an unbroken apostolic lineage to the apostles in union with Peter through the sacrament of ordination and thereby claim to teach with Christ's own authority.

Acts 6:6 - apostolic authority is transferred through the laying on of hands (ordination). This authority has transferred beyond the original twelve apostles as the Church has grown.

Col 1:25 - Paul calls his position a divine "office." An office has successors. It does not terminate at death. Or it's not an office. See also Heb. 7:23 – an office continues with another successor after the previous office-holder’s death.

1 Tim. 3:1 - Paul uses the word "episcopoi" (bishop) which requires an office. Everyone understood that Paul's use of episcopoi and office meant it would carry on after his death by those who would succeed him.

1 Tim. 4:14 - again, apostolic authority is transferred through the laying on of hands (ordination).

1 Tim. 5:22 - Paul urges Timothy to be careful in laying on the hands (ordaining others). The gift of authority is a reality and cannot be used indiscriminately.

2 Tim. 1:6 - Paul again reminds Timothy the unique gift of God that he received through the laying on of hands.

2 Tim. 4:1-6 - at end of Paul's life, Paul charges Timothy with the office of his ministry . We must trace true apostolic lineage back to a Catholic bishop.

2 Tim. 2:2 - this verse shows God's intention is to transfer authority to successors (here, Paul to Timothy to 3rd to 4th generation). It goes beyond the death of the apostles.

There many more even from the OT. God always had men on Earth with Authority and provided for their succession
William

Opelika, AL

#136 May 5, 2013
Mike,

Romans 2:16

MY gospel, he calls it.
Mike Peterson

Jackson, MS

#137 May 5, 2013
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
When was the last word of Scripture given? My point is that the pope is just another man and has no more power available to him from God than is available to any believer. Also he cannot and does not write new scripture. The pope is not an apostle.
The pope is not infallible. Peter nowhere claims supremacy over the other apostles Nowhere in his writings (1 and 2 Peter) did the Apostle Peter claim any special role, authority, or power over the church. Nowhere in Scripture does Peter, or any other apostle, state that their apostolic authority would be passed on to successors.
Peter replaced Judas.

Nobody said the Pope is an Apostle. He is a successor to Peter. The Vicar of Christ.

Priests and Bishops are successors of the Apostles not Apostles It is like tracing your family back into time.

A priest can trace his succession if the records have survived.
Mike Peterson

Jackson, MS

#138 May 5, 2013
Dave P wrote:
In fact, a whole discussion of catholicism would be fitting in the "traditions of men" thread.
Ephesians 4:11 tells us who has authority in the church, delegated from Christ Himself. Pope ain't one of them.
"Sola scriptura" gets ridiculed, but you cannot have a Biblical discussion with persons who have to rely on someone else telling them what the "truth" is. When the word of God has no authority, but the organization does, one is in deep trouble indeed.
The word of God has all authority, oral and written, and it was deposited into an "organization" and not a book. The Church came first. It has been proven it can exist without a Bible.

The Bible cannot exist with a Church


The scriptures were explained by the writers when they were alive. They created the Church Jesus wanted.

Don't you think somebody asked St John, hey did Jesus really mean eat my flesh and drink my blood? He did not write things for men and women 2000 years later to decide themselves what he meant. He explained them at the time.
Mike Peterson

Jackson, MS

#139 May 5, 2013
William wrote:
Mike,
Romans 2:16
MY gospel, he calls it.
.

There are only 4 Gospels in my Bible. That was a letter to the Romans.
Mike Peterson

Jackson, MS

#140 May 5, 2013
Dave P wrote:
<quoted text>
I respectfully disagree 1000% with your entire statement here. Nothing at all I agree with. I believe this flies in the face of scripture.
Sorry typo 'The Bible cannot exist with a Church'

The Bible cannot exist without a Church
William

Opelika, AL

#141 May 5, 2013
Well OK then.

Good luck.

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