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21 - 40 of 163 Comments Last updated May 6, 2013
New Guy

Morehead, KY

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#21
Apr 22, 2013
 
Barnsweb wrote:
'Torah of perfect freedom'. Jesus said if we abide in His word that such discipleship makes us free. Seems to go together well to me...but Bobby may have another idea:-)
I believe this also to be the law of liberty that Paul speaks of as well. Simply put, it is the doctrines and teachings of Christ.
New Guy

Morehead, KY

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#22
Apr 22, 2013
 
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
There is a reason we have the new testament, however I like the way you have studied the OT because many in the coc totally ignore it.
Jesus lived and died under the old covenant, there was no reason for him to not completely obey it. in fact if he had not become the perfect sacrifice there would be no new covenant. We do not live under the covenant of law we live under the covenant of grace. That is why Paul clearly says we are saved by grace and not by the works of the law. What does "saved by grace mean"?
Gonna comment on two posts at once. You debated that guy? How did that go by the way? What little bit I could understand from his site, he seems like a heretic of the highest order.

I also want to say amen to your compliments to Barnsweb about studying the old testament. OT knowledge is critical for us, it is our history and heritage, and written for our learning. I love it! Many brethren I know don't feel the same way. I remember back in my instrumental debate, JustChristian said he was going to tell me the whole Bible truth about a certain point, and didn't mention anything but the NT.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

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#23
Apr 23, 2013
 
Barnsweb wrote:
Hmm. The AENT in James continues:
You believe that there is one Elohim; you do well; the demons also believe and tremble. Would you know, O weak man, that faith without works is dead? Awraham our father, was not he justified by works in offering his son Yitzchak upon the altar? Do yo realize that his faith aided his works, and that by the works of his faith was rendered complete? And the Scripture was fulfilled which says:'Awraham believed in Elohim, and it was credited to him for righteousness" and he was called the Friend of Elohim. You see that by works a man is justified and not by faith alone. So also Rahab the harlot, was she not justified by works when she entertained the spies and sent them forth by another way? As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead."
What does 'saved by faith' mean?;-)
Have a good evening Bobby:-)
Nothing in the above message answers the question of "saved by grace". I am thinking that you must not believe the term is legitimate.

I will answer your question on "saved by faith" with another question. Is our faith in our power or is our faith in God's power?

As to Rahab the harlot, why did God honor her faith and not destroy her for her sin?(Thou shalt not bear false witness) After all sin brings forth death. Something had to have changed the outcome. Where do we find the kind of power that overcomes death hell and the grave? It is certain that Rahab did not have that kind of power.

Jesus said: But go and learn what this means:'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

Since: May 10

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#24
Apr 23, 2013
 
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
There is a reason we have the new testament, however I like the way you have studied the OT because many in the coc totally ignore it.
Jesus lived and died under the old covenant, there was no reason for him to not completely obey it. in fact if he had not become the perfect sacrifice there would be no new covenant. We do not live under the covenant of law we live under the covenant of grace. That is why Paul clearly says we are saved by grace and not by the works of the law. What does "saved by grace mean"?
Here you go with another blanket false statement about the coc. There is no way the coc preaches ignoring the OT.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

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#25
Apr 23, 2013
 
JustChristian wrote:
<quoted text>
Here you go with another blanket false statement about the coc. There is no way the coc preaches ignoring the OT.
You have a good point. Let me put it this way. I have never been in a church where the people carry only a new testament except for in the coc. I did some research on that once and found that sales of new testaments were going more to the coc than anywhere else. I don't remember where I found that info so, I guess it does not help my argument very much without it. The story of Noah is probably the best known OT scripture in the coc. As a worker in the coc children's ministry it was the one I most often used because of it's connection to water baptism. In other words if you will look around Heath and Johnny only use the OT scriptures like ezra 10 to support their doctrinal views

Since: May 10

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#26
Apr 23, 2013
 

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Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
You have a good point. Let me put it this way. I have never been in a church where the people carry only a new testament except for in the coc. I did some research on that once and found that sales of new testaments were going more to the coc than anywhere else. I don't remember where I found that info so, I guess it does not help my argument very much without it. The story of Noah is probably the best known OT scripture in the coc. As a worker in the coc children's ministry it was the one I most often used because of it's connection to water baptism. In other words if you will look around Heath and Johnny only use the OT scriptures like ezra 10 to support their doctrinal views
Another false statement I would bet about Heath and JR.
Dave P

Morehead, KY

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#27
Apr 23, 2013
 
I have to disagree with JC a bit. I know brethren who despise using the OT and claim it is a waste of time. They say that we are NT people, so we should study that. Or they say, the denominations use the OT so we shouldn't. I have personal experience. I have been told before I shouldn't use the OT so much for preaching. Don't just assume Bobby is wrong on this just from your personal experience. Mine says otherwise.

Since: May 10

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#28
Apr 23, 2013
 
Dave P wrote:
I have to disagree with JC a bit. I know brethren who despise using the OT and claim it is a waste of time. They say that we are NT people, so we should study that. Or they say, the denominations use the OT so we shouldn't. I have personal experience. I have been told before I shouldn't use the OT so much for preaching. Don't just assume Bobby is wrong on this just from your personal experience. Mine says otherwise.
Bobby should supply evidence when speaking about persons as he listed Heath and JR.
New Guy

Morehead, KY

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#29
Apr 23, 2013
 
Yeah, in that issue I would agree he should supply evidence. But he is right generally speaking-there are some who only use the OT to prove doctrinal positions.

Since: May 10

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#30
Apr 23, 2013
 
New Guy wrote:
Yeah, in that issue I would agree he should supply evidence. But he is right generally speaking-there are some who only use the OT to prove doctrinal positions.
Never seen it but that does not mean it is not so. We spend several sermons on OT scriptures History and Stories that brought the Old covenant people to Christ. It serves as a clear picture of what was going to happen to the kingdom here on earth and what the messiah meant. So I can not imagine teaching without it.
New Guy

Morehead, KY

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#32
Apr 29, 2013
 
JustChristian wrote:
<quoted text>
Never seen it but that does not mean it is not so. We spend several sermons on OT scriptures History and Stories that brought the Old covenant people to Christ. It serves as a clear picture of what was going to happen to the kingdom here on earth and what the messiah meant. So I can not imagine teaching without it.
If we try to teach without the OT we do so without the origin of our faith. We miss what things really mean, and context.
Mark

Danville, VA

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#33
Apr 29, 2013
 

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This is the kind of ill-logical logic that is the cause of much of the confusion and division which is so prevelant today.
New Guy wrote in his opening comment:

"If we have someone teaching that water baptism should not be performed today, is this not making the commands of God of no effect due to the teachings and commandments of men?"

Then he says:
"Does instrumental music interfere or nullify the ability of us to sing and make melody in our hearts?"

New Guy, Does peanut butter and jelly added to the bread nullify the ability of us to partake of the Lord's supper as He commanded?
New Guy

Morehead, KY

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#34
Apr 29, 2013
 
My sunday school lesson yesterday was over this exact passage of scripture. After I went through a whole lesson showing how much of what we do as "church" is merely tradition, one gentleman said that "if something ain't Bible we shouldn't be doing it"; and "we shouldn't be following traditions in the church".

Of course, the building and songbooks were helpful, sunday school is a good thing, and since we see a night service in Acts, multiple services are ok too. Many won't give up traditions, even when showed they are indeed traditions. This gentleman stopped on the way out yesterday, and said, "I'm not going to argue with you, but we should have a talk". The real problem-he thinks I am heading toward the sacred cow of instrumental music.

One of my elders said, "we need to hear this stuff. The most important commandment is to love God, and our neighbor. We have a hard time with the neighbor or brother. Too busy judging and condemning him." I have people of both instrumental beliefs in the congregation. I think they actually handle the issue correctly-they force no one to go against their convictions, and we all peacefully co-exist with each other. Even with my beliefs and current lessons, I have no intention of attempting to change the congregations practice. More interested in hearts, minds, and attitudes toward brethren.
New Guy

Morehead, KY

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#35
Apr 29, 2013
 
Mark wrote:
This is the kind of ill-logical logic that is the cause of much of the confusion and division which is so prevelant today.
New Guy wrote in his opening comment:
"If we have someone teaching that water baptism should not be performed today, is this not making the commands of God of no effect due to the teachings and commandments of men?"
Then he says:
"Does instrumental music interfere or nullify the ability of us to sing and make melody in our hearts?"
New Guy, Does peanut butter and jelly added to the bread nullify the ability of us to partake of the Lord's supper as He commanded?
Perhaps you should answer my second question Mark. I was first :)
Mark

Danville, VA

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#36
Apr 29, 2013
 
The command is to "sing"

Eph 5:19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;

Col 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

Ro 15:9 And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name.

1Co 14:15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

Heb 2:12 Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.

NO mech. instr. of music mentioned in New Testament church worship and if you can add them to the worship then you cannot forbid anyone from adding peanut butter and jelly to the Lord's supper.
New Guy

Morehead, KY

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#37
Apr 29, 2013
 
Ill-logical logic? I am going from the teaching in Matthew 15. What were the three errors of the Pharisees? Answer my previous question first, maybe this one after.

Then maybe I will get to the ridiculous pb and j issue of the Lords supper. CLASSIC question lol.
New Guy

Morehead, KY

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#38
Apr 29, 2013
 
Mark wrote:
The command is to "sing"
Eph 5:19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;
Col 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
Ro 15:9 And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name.
1Co 14:15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
Heb 2:12 Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.
NO mech. instr. of music mentioned in New Testament church worship and if you can add them to the worship then you cannot forbid anyone from adding peanut butter and jelly to the Lord's supper.
Mark, you haven't been on here for a while have you? Perhaps you should go read "New Guys instrumental debate". Nobody disagrees that Christians sing. Two of your verses are OT quotes making a different point, the Ephesians and Colossians passages are not addressing the "worship service" (language of Ashdod), and singing is not COMMANDED in the greek. The commands are be not filled with wine, but be filled with the Spirit; and let the word of Christ dwell in you richly. None of the 5 acts are called worship in the NT.

Now, can you address this issue with Matthew 15 in mind?

Church of Christ (n/I) preacher, Dave P.
Mark

Danville, VA

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#39
Apr 29, 2013
 
New Guy wrote:
Ill-logical logic? I am going from the teaching in Matthew 15. What were the three errors of the Pharisees? Answer my previous question first, maybe this one after.
Then maybe I will get to the ridiculous pb and j issue of the Lords supper. CLASSIC question lol.
NG, I don't have a problem with what you wrote concerning Matt.15 but you contradict yourself in the remainder of your comment.
Mark

Danville, VA

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#40
Apr 29, 2013
 
New Guy wrote:
<quoted text>
Mark, you haven't been on here for a while have you? Perhaps you should go read "New Guys instrumental debate". Nobody disagrees that Christians sing. Two of your verses are OT quotes making a different point, the Ephesians and Colossians passages are not addressing the "worship service" (language of Ashdod), and singing is not COMMANDED in the greek. The commands are be not filled with wine, but be filled with the Spirit; and let the word of Christ dwell in you richly. None of the 5 acts are called worship in the NT.
Now, can you address this issue with Matthew 15 in mind?
Church of Christ (n/I) preacher, Dave P.
Do I need to read "New Guys instrumental debate" in order to know what God's word says? I don't think so.

New Guy wrote:
"None of the 5 acts are called worship in the NT."

Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

How do we worship "in spirit"?

Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

How do we worship in truth?

Joh 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

In order to worship God in spirit and in truth we must worship Him according to His word, therefore ALL of the "5 acts" are called worship in the NT.
New Guy

Morehead, KY

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#41
Apr 29, 2013
 
Mark wrote:
<quoted text>
NG, I don't have a problem with what you wrote concerning Matt.15 but you contradict yourself in the remainder of your comment.
I don't believe I did Mark. I do not believe that instrumental music is a sin for a Christian, and I do not believe we are commanded to "sing only". This is a tradition of men, not a commandment from God. How does the use, or non use, of musical instruments invalidate "singing and making melody in our hearts to the Lord"? Does God not hear me singing? Is He old, and cannot hear with all the racket? Traditions of men are not necessarily sinful, unless we make them binding and "the law", or we nullify one of His commands by doing so.

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